At the Washington State Capitol lawmakers are putting up a Festivus pole so that Festivus can be honored. People wanted this put up after an atheist display was allowed to be put up next to a nativity scene.

I find this hilarious. Shows you what kind of slippery slope you can have. Seems like a big mockery of atheism.

Here's a related article about proposing it, but as of today it is in fact up.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317090,00.html

12/10/2008 7:20:46 AM

Way to RTFA. Wiccan != Atheist.

12/10/2008 7:23:39 AM

^
Correct...There is no mention of atheists or an atheist display.

Quote :

"It's fucking funny as shit how stripper pole websites also feature festivus poles."

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 8:12 AM. Reason : ]

12/10/2008 8:07:01 AM

^^ Got it wrong in the chit chat thread as well.

What would the atheists display be anyway? Some ointment with a fly in it?



[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 8:12 AM. Reason : ^]

12/10/2008 8:08:58 AM

I was hoping for a statue of the FSM, may sauce be upon him.

12/10/2008 8:24:40 AM

^^

Quote :

"What would the atheists display be anyway?"

There are atheist churches, and I suspect most have symbols of some sort. I mean, what do a cross, a crescent moon, or a menorah have to do with monotheism, per se? Nothing. What does a pentacle have to do with polytheism, per se? Nothing.

A christian church might use symbols that represent their specific take on monotheism, but not to represent all monotheists. Similarly, an atheist church might use symbols that represent their specific take on atheism, but not to represent all atheists. Some atheist churches use an infinity symbol, others use an empty circle, a new moon, or other symbol.

I'm pretty sure most atheists, myself included, take offense to the characterization of atheists as being a fly in ointment.

Quote :

"fly in the ointment: 1) A detrimental circumstance or detail; a drawback. 2) A small but irritating flaw that spoils the whole thing."

Try to be a little more respectful in the future. OK? Thanks.


^
Yeah, do they have a year-end holiday?

12/10/2008 8:29:52 AM

Exactly how I would expect an atheist to react to a joke.

12/10/2008 8:44:35 AM

12/10/2008 8:54:45 AM

The Green Bay Packers could use a Festivus Miracle about now.

12/10/2008 9:23:33 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus

Quote :

"Festivus miracles tend to be minor coincidences that are inconvenient for one of the involved parties"

^ ...Yeah I'd say that's about right.

12/10/2008 9:25:40 AM

Quote :

"Seems like a big mockery of atheism."

that's what you took out of this? really......?
are you sure this isn't a mockery of religion?

Quote :

"Shows you what kind of slippery slope you can have."

the slippery slope is allowing blatantly religious displays of any kind in public offices, not of disallowing certain displays.

12/10/2008 9:44:45 AM

No, I don't see it as a mockery of religion. This country is predominantly Christian and as such, Christian Christmas displays are put up. The putting up of a Festivus Pole is a slap in the face to the Wiccans (not atheists, my mistake) for insisting that they needed to put something up next to the Christian display that pretty much slams the Chrisitan display (despite what they claim)

I apologize for the atheist reference. I heard this story on the news (on TV) this morning and thought they were mentioned. I just threw up this article for a reference.

Sorry about that mistake.

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 9:53 AM. Reason : k]

12/10/2008 9:47:25 AM

the atheist thing is probably in reference to some other incidents recently where atheists have been allowed to put up poster-board signs (not really "displays") near nativity scenes that say something like "there are no angels, there are no demons, there is no heaven or hell. just be good something something"

it matters not that the country is predominantly Christian. Governments of any kind should not be in the business of promoting religion (of any kind).

The guy who started this seems to have it right:

Quote :

"A practicing Catholic who would prefer to see no religious displays at a government office, Ryan said his request to put up an undecorated six foot aluminum pole was intended to showcase how deciding what religions to include in the display can turn to the absurd. "I was turning over how extreme things could get and how loosely things could get interpreted," Ryan said. "The real feat of strength would be for the mayor to stand up and say this is absurd," Ryan added. "Let us keep nativity scenes where they belong in the churches, in our homes and in our hearts.""

12/10/2008 9:57:23 AM

The logic is flawed, since festivus isn't a holiday based on a real belief system... but I agree that there's no reason to have any religious displays (or atheist displays) in any government buildings. However, if you allow one, it's definitely a slippery slope that could lead to festivus poles and satanist symbols.

12/10/2008 12:02:26 PM

^
Who are you to say that "festivus isn't a holiday based on a real belief system"? If even one person has a belief system where festivus is celebrated, whatever that belief system might be, it is real. Also, what would be wrong with satanist symbols? That's a religion, too, right?

[edit:]
Actually, I think the law requires a religion (aka "belief system") to have 3 people to be official.

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 12:15 PM. Reason : ]

12/10/2008 12:12:27 PM

I think he meant that Festivus isn't a holiday based on any particular religion.

It's just a holiday... designed specifically to be an alternative to Christmas, sure... but still, just a holiday, no religious roots.

12/10/2008 12:18:03 PM

I've always found it amazing that this stuff always gets such coverage every year. A true conservative doesn't care about this stuff. Walking by one of the Trump buildings the other day I saw a menorah up next to a Christmas tree. You think when Donald puts up a Christmas tree and someone complains that there should be X, Y, and Z there too he says, "You know what, fuck em, I'm Christian, it's my business, I can do what I want"...or does he go, "Seriously? You are actually bothering me about this? Put up whatever the fuck makes most of my customers and potential customers happy".

Not to be so one sided on the issue I will say that it is a bit frivolous for people of different faiths to really worry about this stuff, but they do have an argument. Separation of church and state.

12/10/2008 12:27:07 PM

Quote :

"Separation of church and state"

That, of course, is really what it's all about. By demanding equal signage, non-christians are employing a denial-of-service attack against some christians' claims that america is a christian nation, and thus governmental and other public spaces should allow christian symbols. (in some cases, to the exclusion of others)

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 12:47 PM. Reason : ]

12/10/2008 12:46:17 PM

Quote :

"I've always found it amazing that this stuff always gets such coverage every year. A true conservative doesn't care about this stuff."

it's pretty well known the "war on Christmas" is just a manufactured controversy hyped by O'Reilly, Rush and Hannity every year to rile up their viewers and push ratings

12/10/2008 12:56:08 PM

Maybe in this particular instance it was wiccans instead of atheists, but a few days ago I read an article on CNN about an atheist plaque that was put up in a government building alongside a nativity scene in Washington state. It was stolen within the hour. Given what a monument to douchebaggery that the sign was, I'm surprised it didn't happen faster.



Religious displays don't belong at government buildings, I'll grant them that, but I'll take a festivus pole, menorah, and shintoist cake-distribution stand over a sign that tells billions around the planet, "You are what's wrong with the world."

12/10/2008 2:27:35 PM

^
So, in other words, you're intolerant of atheists?
I think you've motivated me to work with atheists (and others) here in Raleigh to put up atheist displays in government buildings, if not in time for this holiday season, then the next and all subsequent ones. We'll do this until all religious displays in government buildings are officially prohibited by a ruling of the highest court or by constitutional amendment. (Oh yeah, we'll being doing this with camera surveillance and a mean pack of lawyers. Don't plan on getting away with stealing our sign.)


Also, how did you make this stretch:

Quote :

"You are what's wrong with the world." = "At this season of THE WINTER SOLSTICE may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds. -Placed by the Freedom From Religion Foundation on behalf of its Washington State Members."

12/10/2008 3:31:43 PM

atheists are funny...they are so vocal about the folly of blind faith in a god that cannot be proven to exist, while at the same time show blind faith in there being no god, which can't be proven.

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 4:03 PM. Reason : e]

12/10/2008 4:01:52 PM

i can't believe Seinfeld created a holiday

12/10/2008 4:09:24 PM

I have a religion that I support.
Religion hardens hearts and enslaves minds.
Therefore, I support hardening hearts and enslaving minds.

If hardened hearts (intolerance, lack of empathy, self interest) and mental slavery (ignorance, extreme ideology) aren't what's wrong with the world, I don't know what would qualify.

Quote :

"So, in other words, you're intolerant of atheists? "

No. My dad's one, and we get along fine. And even he thinks these guys are douches (as did a number of the atheist commenters on CNN.com)

I also never said I supported the theft of the sign. I don't. If something is "a monument to douchebaggery," you protest it, you improve your own display, whatever; you don't just steal it like a little bitch.

I don't even have a problem with the idea of atheist displays. The first line of the plaque is perfectly acceptable by most standards. Like a nativity scene, it suggests a certain idea, but it doesn't overtly accuse you of ignorance, incompetence, childishness, moral wrongness, or complicity in war crimes. Like a nativity scene, you can go out of your way to extrapolate it into something much more offensive (as did the supporters of the plaque, who suggested that nativity scenes "threatened violence"), but in reality its pretty benign.

The remainder of it requires no great stretch to quickly become offensive. As far as that goes, there is a line between "supporting your point of view" and "attacking the points of view of others."

Quote :

"I think you've motivated me to work with atheists (and others) here in Raleigh to put up atheist displays in government buildings, if not in time for this holiday season, then the next and all subsequent ones. We'll do this until all religious displays in government buildings are officially prohibited by a ruling of the highest court or by constitutional amendment."

I'm sure that the addition of Willy Nilly will be the thing that puts this agenda over the edge into "being successful." Also, kudos to you for picking North Carolina as your battleground.

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 4:10 PM. Reason : ]

12/10/2008 4:09:44 PM

Quote :

"atheists are funny...they are so vocal about the folly of blind faith in a god that cannot be proven to exist, while at the same time show blind faith in there being no god, which can't be proven."

believing in something in which there is no evidence is not the same as not believing in something because there is no evidence. the former is blind faith, the latter is logic. would you say that i have blind faith because I don't believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, unicorns or any other mythical creature?

12/10/2008 4:38:02 PM

^terrible example...a better one would be say, the majority of the world having blind faith that the sun WAS NOT the center of our solar system in the middle ages...until there was evidence to the contrary, they did not believe in that because there was no evidence to prove it, and were wrong.

The belief at the time was just that, blind faith, not logic.

atheists in the true sense of the term are just as closed minded as the majority of the earth's major religions.

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 4:53 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2008 4:51:45 PM

Quote :

"atheists in the true sense of the term are just as closed minded as the majority of the earth's major religions."

Damn, you took the stupid of this thread to new lows.

An atheist means, no belief in god(s). Not a belief in no god(s). See the difference? Probably not.

12/10/2008 5:41:53 PM

id rather believe in something and find out theres nothing

than to believe in nothing and find out there is actually "something"


is it a suprise that the majority of atheists are social rejects ... hmm

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 5:55 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 5:55 PM. Reason : ]

12/10/2008 5:53:44 PM

Quote :

"id rather believe in something and find out theres nothing than to believe in nothing and find out there is actually "something" is it a suprise that the majority of atheists are social rejects ... hmm"

Haha, what do you "believe" in?

Because you're a pretty piss-poor example of what being a "believer" can do for you, hypocrite.

12/10/2008 6:09:49 PM

I hate the title of this thread.

12/10/2008 6:10:52 PM

^^^

1.) You don't choose what you believe, so your first point is moot
2.) No they aren't. Provide proof - that's just a silly straw man if I've ever seen one

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 6:12 PM. Reason : ,]

12/10/2008 6:12:26 PM

Quote :

" is it a suprise that the majority of atheists are social rejects ... hmm"

and that's coming from TKE-Teg

lol

12/10/2008 7:00:07 PM

Asshat, I didn't say that. But thanks

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 7:08 PM. Reason : and there's no doubt in my mind I have more friends than you]

12/10/2008 7:07:49 PM

Quote :

"and there's no doubt in my mind I have more friends than you"

12/10/2008 7:10:36 PM

oh will the liberal dick riding ever end...

12/10/2008 7:14:46 PM

What the hell are you talking about? Do you even know?

12/10/2008 7:20:21 PM

oh i dunno, he personally attacks me with something i didn't say, and then you take his side when i retort?

12/10/2008 7:25:19 PM

just so we're all clear...

mixing up the screen names TKE-Teg and TKEshultz is liberal dick riding?

is that what you're saying?

12/10/2008 7:28:57 PM

Well all you TKEs look alike. I didn't defend anyone. I just though the "I have more friends than you" comment was juvenile and silly. Then, because you made a stupid commit you somehow equate that to being a "liberal," using it like it's a dirty word. So yeah...

12/10/2008 7:29:05 PM

Quote :

"id rather believe in something and find out theres nothing than to believe in nothing and find out there is actually "something""

See Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager#Context). It's a logical fallacy because like you, it assumes only 2 possibilities. No God or God. When in fact since we're talking about unfalsifiable claims, there are limitless possibilities.

As another point and as has been stated before atheism is not a "belief in nothing". It is the lack of belief in the divine. If you could come up with falsifiable evidence that there is a god, and we could test it to the limits of current methods, I guarantee you that every rational atheist would convert immediately.

12/10/2008 7:30:24 PM

Quote :

"An atheist means, no belief in god(s). Not a belief in no god(s). See the difference? Probably not."

yep, i've heard that one before.

but, i've never heard a self-proclaimed atheist open to the idea that there might be a god(explanation: 'prove they're/it's there' when really no possible proof available would satisfy the requirement), much like I've never heard a self-proclaimed christian, jew, muslim open to the idea their god might not exist('prove he's not' when no possible proof available would satisfy the requirement).

they seem pretty similar in their approaches to me.

12/10/2008 7:36:06 PM

Quote :

"i've never heard a self-proclaimed atheist open to the idea that there might be a god(explanation: 'prove they're/it's there' when really no possible proof available would satisfy the requirement), much like I've never heard a self-proclaimed christian, jew, muslim open to the idea their god might not exist('prove he's not' when no possible proof available would satisfy the requirement)"

Really? Most atheists will readily admit there might be a God, or there might be a Teapot between the Earth and the Sun, or there might be leprechauns. There might be a lot of things. But they don't believe in them. Being open to the possibility of something doesn't mean you believe in it. Where as religion, by it's very definition, requires the belief in something.

12/10/2008 7:43:40 PM

No, A Tanzarian, thats not what I was saying.

Quote :

"Well all you TKEs look alike. I didn't defend anyone. I just though the "I have more friends than you" comment was juvenile and silly. Then, because you made a stupid commit you somehow equate that to being a "liberal," using it like it's a dirty word. So yeah..."

I wasn't using liberal as a dirty word. Since you immediately took JS's side I assumed you just clinging to the liberal (JS). Juvenile and silly?! JS was basically calling me a social reject, but me saying I bet I have more friends (countering his statement) is juvenile? You lost me...

12/10/2008 7:59:35 PM

oh stfu already

it should be quite apparent that i confused you (TKE-TEG) with TKEShultz -- i meant to direct my "social reject" comment to him, since he was the one who made the comment i quoted.

You got to admit that at first glance, you're almost like a couple of carbon copies of each other, at least on this forum -- the only thing setting you apart is the fact that TKEShultz is somewhat stupider than you

secondly, i dont give a damn how many friends you have. I go for quality not quantity. if i wanted to hang around a bunch of frattys, i'd have bought into your popped-collar country club myself. Unfortunately, the mere thought of that makes me want to stab my eyes out.

HOWEVER.... It is interesting how defensive and prickly you got that someone would suggest (even mistakenly) that you are a social reject. Methinks thou dost protest too greatly.






[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 8:28 PM. Reason : "somewhat"]

12/10/2008 8:19:47 PM

joe you hurt my feelings! seriously

when you start hiring people let me know, because until then, ill rely on other people to get my job , which will be better than yours .. dont be mad .. please

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 8:29 PM. Reason : ill be your boss son]

12/10/2008 8:26:10 PM

i still love you, though.



like a retarded stepbrother.

12/10/2008 8:27:48 PM

you better, if you want a job


JK man

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 8:34 PM. Reason : ]

12/10/2008 8:29:30 PM

i heart joe_schmoe

[Edited on December 10, 2008 at 8:53 PM. Reason : ying to my yang]

12/10/2008 8:52:27 PM

Quote :

"id rather believe in something and find out theres nothing than to believe in nothing and find out there is actually "something""

Disco already covered the Pascal's wager portion of this argument, but by picking just one of the thousands of god's that people have created over the centuries for yourself to believe in is hardly a good insurance policy.
"Let's see..... there are thousands of god's available for me to believe in, or none at all..... I'll pick this one, and be self assured that it is the right pick!"

Quote :

"but, i've never heard a self-proclaimed atheist open to the idea that there might be a god"

then you haven't talked to many atheists.
I consider myself "a-theistic", meaning that I personally am without a belief in a god. That viewpoint does not, however, preclude the possibility of one existing. Ask most atheists what they really, truly think, and most will say "I don't believe in a god" over "there is no god"

12/10/2008 9:08:45 PM

hey guys are we talkin bout religion or are we talking about christmas trees and how they influence our economy based on public appearance?

12/10/2008 9:59:38 PM