http://modite.com/blog/2007/07/23/skip-grad-school-life-is-better-with-experience/

Quote :

"Skip Grad School. Life is Better with Experience. A few weeks ago, I met a twenty-something pursuing an advanced degree in Political Science to become a professor, although he had no real-world experience in politics. I listened to Mr. Poli Sci and then I said, “How can you possibly teach something you haven’t experienced?” Mr. Poli Sci became quite defensive at this point claiming he had objectivity (!) since he wasn’t personally involved. I tried to think of one successful person in politics that attempted to stand on both sides of the fence. Politics is about having an opinion. It’s the very definition of passion. In talking to Mr. Poli Sci, I realized he had committed two common Generation Y sins. One, he had a vague interest in a topic, but no passion, fostering an apathetic approach towards life. Two, he went to grad school to fix it. Life is better with experience. Here’s why: 1) Grad school is good on paper, but barely. An education doesn’t allow your competencies to be realistically measured, or allow you to be differentiated among other candidates. An education simply signifies that you have completed a degree. It doesn’t provide the full picture of your marketable skills. Moreover, an advanced degree may bring you more money, but it’s not guaranteed. What is guaranteed is the extra stress your additional student loans will create and the regret you’ll feel for wasting your efforts when you don’t end up using your degree. Seems barely worth it considering “grad school is a confidence-killing daily assault of petty degradations.” 2) Employers look for experience, so should you. Real-world experience reigns supreme over schooling. Every time. Your experience in the real-world interacting with real people and real situations allows you to be uniquely suited towards a particular position. Of course, you need education and knowledge to put places on a map. But then you have to go live life to arrive at a destination. Sure, Mr. Poli Sci would be a good professor, but never great. Great professors have fervent opinions, they know intimately the subject matter upon which they speak, and they have formed a deep respect for the other side. Most importantly, they’ve formed these opinions as the result of real-world experience. 3) Objectivity gets you nowhere. It’s easy to be objective when you haven’t risked anything. But success in business is not objective. Decisions are based on the relationships you have with others, and the emotions of how you’ve lived life up until this point. The facts can be laid out in front of you, but it is ultimately the experiences you’ve had that determine an outcome. 4) It’s better to do something, instead of just learn about it. Why, exactly, are so many of us in such a hurry to re-institutionalize ourselves? I spent years in college yearning to be done with school. Especially the flash card part. Going to grad school is not having the guts to get on with life. You’re not telling corporate America anything by indulging in a larger map. You’re just making it harder to figure out which road to take. Want to give the finger to the establishment? Go blog. Go start your own business. Go to work every single day and rock every single day."

I find this topic very timely at the moment, because I have several friends that are scared to enter the real world because of the worsing economy. Several of them are making the decision to go to Grad school to avoid the harsh reality of the marketplace and/or to prolong their college experience.

Granted, many of them are intelligent and capable people that will do well regardless, but I think this popular strategy is very deceptive. I understand that many advanced degrees hold merit and can open up new opportunities, but the pattern I'm seeing among some of my friends does not compute with reality.

The truth is, nothing can substitute experience and I've tried telling countless individuals that advanced degrees are only truly worth their weight in gold if the student really wants to become an expert in that field of study. Grad school, although very popular right now, is not necessarily a road to success. In fact, in some cases, it will hold you back from being as successful as your friends with bachelor's degrees that have already been in the real world for a number of years.

The argument is that the ceiling is higher for those with Masters degrees or PhDs, but so far my personal experience does not match up with that notion. I have a degree from NCSU and I'm making more money than people that graduated in my class that have advanced degrees in their field of study.

Understandably, it all depends on the degree that you are pursuing, but the people that I'm referencing are MBAs and MPAs. My brother also has just a bachelors degree from UNC, and he too makes more than his counterparts with advanced degrees. I guess we are flukes in the system or simply lucky bastards.

Either way, the point of this thread is to beg the question, is Grad School really worth it for the majority of people that are doing it for reasons other than becoming an expert in a certain field? I say No, for most people, Grad School is a strategy for success in higher learning and not a tactic for making more money in the real world. Unless of course, your employer pays for it, but that just reinforces the experience argument further.

12/30/2008 10:44:56 AM

The fun thing is that was written at nearly the height of a euphoric bubble when anyone with a pulse could make money in the market and still land/have jobs that paid them way too much to do way too little.

At this stage of the game, your friends are probably right to go back to school. Just what exactly are they going to be able to experience at this point...that capitalism is pretty brutal on the down swing and rather than starting down an MS, they sat on their thumbs trying to get hired somewhere?

I'll agree though that an MS for the sake of it with no passion is quite possibly a waste of money because that won't translate into real world results, but an MS in a field you are legitimately interested in can certainly be a fast track to having the opportunity to get that experience.

12/30/2008 11:13:21 AM

Grad School is infinitely more meaningful (both to the individual and the market) after one has had 5-10 years real world experience in a given field.

12/30/2008 11:19:41 AM

You should be suspicious of anyone who tells you not to further your education.

Maybe we should expand this persons theory even further... skip college all together. Working at Burger King your whole life will provide much more valuable experience.

12/30/2008 11:40:18 AM

Real world experience is education.

12/30/2008 11:50:40 AM

all other things being equal, the person with a grad degree will beat the BS/BA every time.


... that said, "all other things" are never equal.


if you can afford it, now is definitely the time to go to grad school. unless of course you have a solid offer from a stable company that you believe will carry through for 2 years.

12/30/2008 12:49:45 PM

Quote :

"all other things being equal, the person with a grad degree will beat the BS/BA every time."

Exactly like how, all other things being equal, the person with proven real world experience will beat the one w/o every time.

12/30/2008 1:09:28 PM

My personal experience on this topic as expressed through a movie quote:

Quote :

"Personally, I like the University. They gave us money and facilities, we didn't have to produce anything. You've never been out of college. You don't know what it's like out there. I've worked in the private sector. They expect results."

- Ray to Pete in Ghostbusters

12/30/2008 1:23:22 PM

^Sounds like a buddy of mine who's in grad school here.

I think which experience vs. more school thing is better depends on the subject matter. I'd probably learn more from going back for a master's in history or library science (which was what I was considering) than if I was to find some writing-related thing with my history degree or through shelving books at DH Hill.

12/30/2008 3:08:19 PM

A person with an undergraduate in political science, on average, won't be able to find much meaningful experience right out of college - at least not right now. Why wouldn't you go to grad school? It's not that people don't want experience, or don't understand how important experience is. It's that getting real experience is pretty difficult.

12/30/2008 3:30:00 PM

Quote :

"You should be suspicious of anyone who tells you not to further your education."

The economic value of degrees, both bachelors and higher degrees have changed constantly through the decades. There was a time when 99% of you all would have had a better option not setting foot in a college. It's not hard to find a blog bullish on work experience in the environment of the last decade - that talk is real cheap. Unfortunately, the environment many of those people had in mind may be evaporating. Ask yourself: does the skill that I'm learning help produce something of real tangible value. Dancing around company internal politics may or may not be useful in the long term.

Wait until the dust clears from the current situation and see what it looks like the best basket for you to place your eggs in is. Until then, you might want to error on the side of over-investing in yourself. Whatever the world's outcome is, the smartest win out.

[Edited on December 30, 2008 at 6:09 PM. Reason : ]

12/30/2008 6:06:01 PM

Since everyone is getting bachelors nowadays, grad school is becoming the thing that stands out. Also, you can get a grad degree while working, so it's not an either-or kind of thing.

The most important thing about new hires is potential to be extremely talented. There's no hard rule that says either experience or a higher degree shows that. Experience is valuable in that it provides a lot of material for a candidate to make the case that they are very talented.

With that said, I would always pick someone who seems very sharp who is coming out of grad school over someone of average talent who worked after their undergrad.

Experience does not make up for a lack of talent. If two candidates seem to be equally talented, experience can be a tie breaker.

[Edited on December 30, 2008 at 7:00 PM. Reason : .]

12/30/2008 6:49:29 PM

you should run for congress

12/30/2008 7:52:01 PM

I disagree 100% with this article when it comes students in science or engineering fields.

On the contrary i think our country is in DESPERATE need of people getting advanced degrees in these fields. Else the best minds of academia will continue to train Mohander or Peng Li to get their PhD and take their advanced degrees to India/China or wherever else and out innovate our american counter parts.

12/30/2008 8:08:58 PM

Who gives a shit what this broad thinks.

12/30/2008 9:02:35 PM

The two options aren't always mutually exclusive. One can pursue an advanced degree and get relevant part-time work experience at the same time.

Plus, grad school only gets more expensive/less convenient the longer one waits to do it. At the same time, though, spending two years in the "real world" did help light a fire under my ass for when I went back to school.

12/30/2008 10:44:36 PM

screw that school and work are cool only if you are loser who cares to do nothing but

sleep school work study

rinse and repeat

12/31/2008 12:37:47 AM

An oversimplified answer to a complicated question. PhD's and Masters are two very different animals.

If you want to go into academia, then a PhD is practically required, especially if you want to be tenure tracked. Also, the PhD value varies dramatically depending not just on what school you came out of but who your advisor was and what your research specialty is in.

Disagree with #2. While in general, experience can make up for any graduate degrees, if you're looking to just work, a lot of corporations will usually count a Masters a couple years of experience during their screening processes (5-8 exp. or 3-6 with masters type).

I strongly agree that in most situations, experience and then a graduate degree greatly enhances what you get out of your degree. Some of the best PhD candidates I met were those who worked before going back to school; they knew what they were looking for, what their interests were, and they had the discipline to hack it through.

I think this goes to the difference in what work experience and graduate school offer. Graduate school offers you better theoretical footing and specialized knowledge in your selected field. You can certainly learn this outside while working, but this sort of knowledge can really help enhance any experience you have.

Trying to get a PhD without passion for your field is suicide. You could do it with a masters though.

Anyway, just a few random thoughts.

12/31/2008 3:09:39 AM

^ I was highly contemplating graduate school right away but honestly was not sure what i specifically wanted to concentrate on.

If i went back today i may still go into RF or communications engineering which I was leaning toward but my job currently has opened the doors to an interest in controls and power electronics.

12/31/2008 4:51:27 AM

well judging from how little my accounting degree has helped me in my first year at work, I'm glad I opted not to get a MAC and to just take another semester of bullshit electives to get my 150 hours for CPA qualification

12/31/2008 8:49:49 AM

I've thought about going back to school, but I really don't know what I'd want to study. To be honest, I still don't really know what I want to do career-wise in the long run (which sucks)

12/31/2008 9:24:50 AM

so get an MBA, then.

that's what every engineer who doesnt want to be an engineer does

12/31/2008 6:06:03 PM

What the hell college is he going to teach at without even a Masters.

This article is stupid.

1/1/2009 8:53:01 AM

^ they can be a CHASS lecturer

1/1/2009 11:43:03 AM

Quote :

"Grad School is infinitely more meaningful (both to the individual and the market) after one has had 5-10 years real world experience in a given field."

My sentiments exactly. I see myself getting an advanced degree debt-free, but only after my education begins to hinder my growth potential in the marketplace. Thus far, it has not. Once it does, I will pursue higher learning via my company and will increase my salary far beyond those who chose otherwise. This goes back to the difference between strategy and tactics. Granted, my approach is frugal and difficult, but in the end, the payoff is potentially far greater.

Quote :

"You should be suspicious of anyone who tells you not to further your education."

Yes, you should. The argument that I'm making is avoid financial debt entirely by obtaining an advanced degree through your employer after years of experience. I come from a family of academics and would never suggest limiting your goals of higher education. Instead, I'm pointing at an unpopular route that saves money and solidifies your marketability in the long run.

1/1/2009 12:26:12 PM

Quote :

"Being white means to engage in a day in, day out struggle to prove that you are smarter than other white people. By the time they reach college, most white people are confronted with the fact that they may not be as smart as they imagined. In coffee shops, bars, and classes white people will engage in conversations about authors and theorists that go nowhere as both parties start rattling off progressively more obscure people until eventually one side recognizes one and claims a victory. By the time they graduate (or a year or two afterwards), white people realize that they will need an edge to succeed in the cut-throat world of modern white society. That edge is graduate school. Though professional graduate schools like law and medicine are desirable, the true ivory tower of academia is most coveted as it imparts true, useless knowledge. The best subjects are English, History, Art History, Film, Gender Studies, Studies, Classics, Philosophy, Political Science, Literature, and the ultimate: Comp Lit. MFA’s are also acceptable. Returning to school is an opportunity to join an elite group of people who have a passion for learning that is so great they are willing to forgo low five-figure publishing and media jobs to follow their dreams of academic glory. Being in graduate school satisfies many white requirements for happiness. They can believe they are helping the world, complain that the government/university doesn’t support them enough, claim they are poor, feel as though are getting smarter, act superior to other people, enjoy perpetual three day weekends, and sleep in every day of the week! After acquiring a Masters Degree that will not increase their salary or hiring desirability, many white people will move on to a PhD program where they will go after their dream of becoming a professor. However, by their second year they usually wake up with a hangover and realize: “I’m going to spend six years in graduate school to make $35,000 and live in the middle of nowhere?” After this crisis, a white person will follow one of two paths. The first involves dropping out and moving to New York, San Francisco or their original home town where they can resume the job that they left to attend graduate school. At this point, they can feel superior to graduate school and say things like “A PhD is a testament to perseverance, not intelligence.” They can also impress their friends at parties by referencing Jacques Lacan or Slavoj Žižek in a conversation about American Idol. The second path involves becoming a professor, moving to a small town and telling everyone how they are awful and uncultured. It is important to understand that a graduate degree does not make someone smart, so do not feel intimidated. They may have read more, but in no way does that make them smarter, more competent, or more likable than you. The best thing you can do is to act impressed when a white person talks about critical theorists. This helps them reaffirm that what they learned in graduate school was important and that they are smarter than you. This makes white people easier to deal with when you get promoted ahead of them."

1/1/2009 4:17:04 PM

^ what the fuck

1/1/2009 4:54:53 PM

i thought it was good

1/1/2009 5:12:53 PM

It's much better in context:

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/03/04/81-graduate-school/

(the text is great but the picture really makes it)

1/1/2009 8:41:45 PM

For what it's worth the concept of going to grad school in lieu of working is pretty pointless. In many cases if you work for a good company, they will reimburse your expenses (tuition, books, etc.) and pay your way through grad school. I know quite a few who have gone this path.

But, you know, everyone's path is different. Brin and Page were grad students and being at Stanford created a great atmosphere in which to make connections, do research, and start Google. At least here in the Valley, I have been under the impression that Stanford is a bit of an incubator. But it's clearly an exception and not the rule, given its stature.

1/1/2009 8:49:25 PM

Unless you get alot more money (like over $10,000.00 vs a BS), it isnt worth it...heck, even then the person with the BS will catch up eventually, probably in a year or so.

1/1/2009 9:45:29 PM

you cant generalize anything about MS vs BS. it totally depends on type of degree, and the industry in which you work.

1/1/2009 10:29:18 PM

^ u speak truth

1/2/2009 12:05:12 AM

^^ yep. where I work, getting the masters < 27 puts you on an entirely different salary track and you get 10k more immediately. Only extremely high-performing BS people will catch up, but these high-performers will more than likely get their masters anyway (because company pays for it).


I'll go ahead and add that the people who never got their masters at our workplace are all not as talented.

[Edited on January 2, 2009 at 12:21 AM. Reason : .]

1/2/2009 12:19:10 AM

We'll, I got a PhD straight after finishing my undergraduate work. I can say without reservation that a lack of "real world" experience has not in the least impeded my success in my field of study.

But, I do aspire to be an "expert". Moreover, I make about the same amount of $$$ now as I would if I had just got a 2 year degree like 10 years ago. A person with my problem solving ability could advance in a company with or without a degree. That's my suspicion. Certainly I'd be making more $$$ if I just stopped with the B.S. But, I enjoy life outside the cubical. Moreover, there do exist interested students. Sadly, a rare resource these days.

Too many people are just in college for the degree. But, I can't complain too much. Those folks make my chosen profession viable. So thanks to all you dispassionate money grubbing degree not for knowledge seeking barbarians.

Good thread. I especially enjoyed:

Quote :

"so get an MBA, then. that's what every engineer who doesnt want to be an engineer does"

truth.

[Edited on January 2, 2009 at 10:15 AM. Reason : .]

1/2/2009 10:14:40 AM

I'll say that in education, it's very unlikely that someone with zero experience and a masters degree will beat out someone with a BA and experience.

It seems like going straight into a graduate degree is only worthwhile if you want to get into a career where a graduate degree is a prerequisite.

And let's face it, is a graduate degree from a middle or low-ranked school really indicative of anything?

1/2/2009 2:06:21 PM

Quote :

"But, I do aspire to be an "expert". Moreover, I make about the same amount of $$$ now as I would if I had just got a 2 year degree like 10 years ago. A person with my problem solving ability could advance in a company with or without a degree."

Ultimately, if a person is concerned with the bottom line, a doctorate is not necessarily the correct choice to make. However, if a person desires to become an expert in a field of study (PhD), the debt dilemma does not necessarily apply to this discussion. The path to success is very different and the job security of a tenured professor remains one of the most enviable perks in our society.

Quote :

"So thanks to all you dispassionate money grubbing degree not for knowledge seeking barbarians."

I wouldn't classify myself and others like me, as dispassionate. Instead, the decision to wait to attain an advanced degree in order to find monetary compensation via their employer is simply practical in this marketplace. It would be disingenuous to claim that these types of individuals lack passion for academia; rather they envision a different path that meets the same end without losing ground. Now, to achieve a PhD in any given field is a different strategy entirely. So in that case, your point is well taken.

1/3/2009 10:20:38 AM

I like this thread much better than the one I added (again, I'm sorry).

With today's political and economic climate, it would probably be smart to just go to grad school for as long as possible. I have a friend who is getting his JD and MBA concurrently at Pitt and is waiting for democrats to leave the white house before he enters the job market.

The best way is always to get someone else to pay for it (the Republican philosophy), so if you're working and you can get reimbursed, do it. Also, get a real master's degree.

1/3/2009 1:37:29 PM

true storraaaayyyy

1/3/2009 1:44:33 PM

http://www.dailycal.org/article/103823/economy_influences_graduate_school_applications

Quote :

"Economy Influences Graduate School Applications -By Alexandra Wilcox After she graduates, UC Berkeley senior Lauren Apter is steering clear of the souring job market and opting for the Peace Corps. But the dwindling availability of jobs and surging national unemployment rates have led her to consider another move after that-graduate school. "I definitely say my choice in grad school is definitely heightened by the economy," she said. "The idea that I can still continue my education provides me with a nice security blanket." Apter is not alone. Joseph Duggan, associate dean of UC Berkeley's graduate division, said that as of Nov. 30, the number of graduate school applications is 28 percent higher than the same time last year-the biggest spike he has seen in his 23 years in the division. So far, about 7,814 applications have come in, compared with 6,115 last year. Roughly 35,000 applications come in yearly. "I don't remember ever having that large of a jump," Duggan said. "This is quite a big rise. They usually go up and down three or four percent." Historically, more students have looked to improve their employability by going to graduate school during uncertain markets, something higher education officials say could make acceptance and financial aid more competitive. The growing interest in graduate school is a national trend, said Liza Weale, director of graduate programs for Kaplan Test Prep and Admissions. Since September, Kaplan has seen a 45 percent increase in interest for its business, law and graduate school preparation programs. While the jump in campus graduate school applications may change as deadlines differ per program, administrators anticipate a rise in applicants. Peter Johnson, executive director of admissions for the campus's full-time MBA program, estimates applications are already up roughly 20 percent compared to last year, although only one round of its four-round application cycle has ended. Edward Tom, dean of admissions at Boalt Hall School of Law, said he predicts the number of applicants will go up 6 to 7 percent. The electrical engineering and computer sciences department is expecting to receive 3,000 applications, 500 more than last year, said Rebecca Miller, director for the department's center of student affairs. But not all students applied in time. For fifth-year Katie Leary, taking a break before graduate school may hinder future employment opportunities. "Now that I know, I feel that it would be better to go into grad school because I couldn't get a job," she said. "I'm a little wishing I had the option to stay in school." Despite the increase in competition for financial aid, the diminishing number of student loan lenders could also complicate graduate school aspirations, higher education officials said. Additional schooling aside, work experience can be more valuable on a resume these days, said Suzanne Helbig, a career counselor at the Career Center. "For some professions, a graduate degree is the ticket into entry," she said. "For others, you just get a deep understanding of a subject matter, but you really need the combination of experience and the degree. You can't have one or the other." Tags: GRADUATE SCHOOL, NATIONAL ECONOMY "

1/6/2009 11:58:28 AM

I too, look to pundits to form my opinion on a matter.

1/6/2009 12:39:28 PM

Quote :

"so get an MBA, then. that's what every engineer who doesnt want to be an engineer does"

joe_schmoe

Um. . .yeah, except the value of the MBA degree specifically has been questioned by many for quite some time now. I remember reading an article in Business 2.0 from 2002--I still have the magazine--in which the MBA's value is examined.

Here's an excerpt:

What's an MBA Really Worth?

Quote :

"Still more pointed is an upcoming study by Jeffrey Pfeffer, a management professor at Glauthier's own business alma mater, Stanford. In it Pfeffer challenges the bedrock assumption of business school: that those who make the effort to get an MBA degree have more successful careers than those who don't. Pfeffer combs through 40 years' worth of data for evidence that this is true -- and uncovers almost none. He quotes Ronald Burt, a University of Chicago business professor and the researcher behind two of the studies in Pfeffer's paper, who says, 'I have never found benefits for the MBA degree. Usually it just makes you a couple years older than non-MBA peers.'"

http://tinyurl.com/a4232r

As an aside, Business 2.0 ceased publication in 2007.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The job outlooks for both postsecondary instructors and higher education administrators--right in my wheelhouse--are great! But your chances are better with both jobs if you hold an advanced degree.

Teachers -Postsecondary

Quote :

"Education and training. Four-year colleges and universities usually require candidates for full-time, tenure-track positions, to hold a doctoral degree. However, they may hire master’s degree holders or doctoral candidates for certain disciplines, such as the arts, or for part-time and temporary jobs."

Quote :

"Employment of postsecondary teachers is expected to grow much faster than average as student enrollments continue to increase."

Quote :

"Postsecondary teachers are expected to grow by 23 percent between 2006 and 2016, much faster than the average for all occupations. Because of the size of this occupation and its much faster than average growth rate, postsecondary teachers will account for 382,000 new jobs, which is among the largest number of new jobs for an occupation."

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos066.htm

Higher Education Administrator: Executive Summary

Quote :

"If you liked attending college, chances are you'll like working there, too. Compared with most office environments, the surroundings are beautiful, the atmosphere intellectually stimulating, and the work hours more forgiving. And things really lighten up in the summer! For better or worse, there are lots of management jobs on campus, because university bureaucracies tend to be large, from student affairs to academic affairs, physical plant to student health service. One downside: Office politics can be brutal. Political correctness also bothers some academics, who feel that holding liberal views is a litmus test for getting hired or promoted [LOL!]. Many campus jobs require a master's or Ph.D. Universities sell degrees, after all. They need to practice what they preach."

Quote :

"The work is unusually pleasant: You spend your day dealing with orientation, residence hall activities, and student clubs and organizations. Competition for these jobs is less rigorous than for academic ones, so you can often get your first job with just a bachelor's degree."

http://tinyurl.com/354tl5



[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 2:00 AM. Reason : Linky.]

1/7/2009 1:51:22 AM

what i said earlier:

value of grad degree is entirely dependent on the type of degree and the industry in which you work.
the academic prestige of the degree's institution also has a lot of effect, especially on professional degrees like the MBA

1/7/2009 9:41:16 AM