http://blogs.msdn.com/jasonz/archive/2009/02/20/a-new-look-for-visual-studio-2010.aspx

*toot toot* Don't know how many people use VS on tdub, but the new UI really is pretty damn gorgeous. Except for Adobe CS and iLife, this is probably the most visually appealing application I used on a regular basis and we ain't even to beta yet

Jason also dropped some hints to some of the new shell functionality which hopefully people will appreciate

[Edited on February 25, 2009 at 10:05 AM. Reason : pitchure]

2/25/2009 10:04:42 AM

I prefer a terminal

2/25/2009 10:05:22 AM

i prefer an os with native ssh and sftp capabilities

2/25/2009 10:14:55 AM

hard to get excited about something i can't see in person or has such small resolution pictures that it's hard to tell what i'm even looking at exactly

glad they seem to be moving in the right direction tho

2/25/2009 10:25:43 AM

^Yeah I can't say why, but there's a good reason for that

If/when I get the clear, I'll post up some real deal screens. Otherwise, public beta isn't too far away and you'll get to play with it yourself

2/25/2009 10:28:25 AM

I was gonna say "wtf no ribbon?" but then I imagined the 'sperging nerds whos heads would explode.

2/25/2009 10:41:05 AM

^unfortunately the ribbon doesn't really scale beyond ~300 commands.

VSTS has over 5000.

2/25/2009 10:47:42 AM

I'd be interested to know more of the details around the fact that is was rebuilt in WPF. Other than Expression Blend, this is one of the biggest applications I know of to be built in WPF

[Edited on February 25, 2009 at 10:59 AM. Reason : is it just the editor in WPF? i can't remember]

2/25/2009 10:48:57 AM

Even though I don't works somewhere this would be useful any more, I was kinda excited to hear they were making it easy to have projects use older compilers.

2/25/2009 11:05:24 AM

yea, i can't see much, but what i can see looks good.

nice hierarchy, side tabs, top tabs, collapsable navigation, preview pane alongside code.... nice work!

2/25/2009 12:10:17 PM

will it make me a better programmer?

2/25/2009 1:25:09 PM

it will make you a more efficient programmer. if you're a crappy programmer, you'd just churn out crap quicker

2/25/2009 1:26:12 PM

i'm so glad i'm not a programmer... holy crap

2/25/2009 1:29:10 PM

Quote :

"i prefer an os with native ssh and sftp capabilities"

That said, what is Microsoft's problem with having a native implementation of the above?? Why do they make us suffer?

[Edited on February 25, 2009 at 2:31 PM. Reason : .]

2/25/2009 2:30:41 PM

I know, srsly.... They'll bundle a browser, media player, games, god knows what that have no relation to an OS, but the few damn things that would really improve the usability of the OS are like, "oh ho ho, no we don't include ssh LOL"

2/25/2009 3:22:22 PM

Because an SSH window isn't useful anywhere else in the operating system and Putty is under a half a meg?

[Edited on February 25, 2009 at 4:01 PM. Reason : .]

2/25/2009 4:00:59 PM

seriously. that is the most retarded criticism of Windows i've heard in a long time

2/25/2009 4:10:21 PM

^^i'm fairly certain he was talking about an SSH server

2/25/2009 4:12:08 PM

well in that case openssh is 2.5 megs

2/25/2009 4:13:33 PM

Maybe because the average windows user in a home or business environment has absolutely zero need for SSH clients or servers?

2/25/2009 8:23:23 PM

Well maybe they should market towards the average user with a dick in their mouth.

2/25/2009 8:43:19 PM

thread successfully derailed

2/25/2009 8:43:28 PM

Quote :

"it will make you a more efficient programmer. if you're a crappy programmer, you'd just churn out crap quicker"

excellent. and i assume it will let me mix between using space (0x20) characters to indent in some parts of my code, while using the tab (0x0B) character to indent other parts, yes? that is something that i can't live without.

2/26/2009 5:55:16 AM

Oh hell yeah it will

2/26/2009 7:07:30 AM

people who dont use hard tabs for indenting are the worst kind of people.

2/26/2009 8:59:49 AM

on the other hand, people who don't use spaces for indenting are the worst kind of people

2/26/2009 9:28:37 AM

why would you ever use spaces. If you use tabs you can set the tab width in your editor. So no matter who's code you open you get the same indent length as long as they used tabs.

If they use spaces you sperg out and take 10 minutes reformatting their code so its readable.

2/26/2009 10:18:04 AM

yeah but 2 spaces per indent is the only rational indention choice so why would you ever even need to do that


actually, i don't care either way. the only thing i hate is when tabs and spaces get mixed up in a file then your indents are all kinds of messed up

[Edited on February 26, 2009 at 11:02 AM. Reason : don't ever take me seriously. except for when i am being serious.]

2/26/2009 11:01:11 AM

Spaces are the only rational indent. I even set up my tab key to just insert 8 spaces instead of a tab char.

Python approves. Python wins.

[Edited on February 26, 2009 at 12:27 PM. Reason : s]

2/26/2009 12:25:42 PM

oh christ are you nerds seriously arguing about tab indents

2/26/2009 1:20:18 PM

look you might not care but us nerds do care about doing our jobs more efficiently. It's the American way. So I guess the real question is why do you hate freedom?

2/26/2009 1:34:08 PM

AMURIKA



FUCK YEAHG

2/26/2009 1:43:13 PM

I really enjoyed using VS when I worked on a .NET project at work. Too bad everything else about developing in that framework was fucking terrible. Couldn't be happier about being back in a Java environment.

2/26/2009 2:10:59 PM

what didn't you like about .NET? i've done both too and I would dread going back to Java

2/26/2009 2:28:55 PM

I don't know, it may have been more the actual application we worked on rather than the framework itself. It was one of those where someone else in the company had started something, the higher ups decided it needed to be finished asap, so they pulled a couple of the guys from our team (who are primarily Java developers) to finish it.

The application was just a mess, one of those really kludgy things where everything you do feels like a hack. I guess I just didn't like the page controller model ASP.NET uses. Part of that may be familiarity, but there were several things that you sort of get for free in JSP and Struts that I felt I had to go out of my way to accomplish in ASP.NET. I'm sure if I had written the thing myself from the ground up using some best practices, it wouldn't have been as bad.

2/26/2009 2:56:28 PM

Quote :

"I'm sure if I had written the thing myself from the ground up..."

haha doesn't every engineer say that when faced with anything?

2/26/2009 6:22:47 PM

^ QFT

2/26/2009 6:30:56 PM

Quote :

"several things that you sort of get for free in JSP and Struts that I felt I had to go out of my way to accomplish in ASP.NET."

This is a classic "complaint" of all .NET languages. The frustrating thing is, most of that "free" stuff you also get for free in .NET, it's just a different way to do it. I still have a really hard time with .NET because of my Java background. Of course I dont actually develop anything, so that could be a part of the problem too

2/26/2009 6:41:28 PM

My boss, in charge of roughly 30 developers, just tried c# for the first time ever this week (classic C guy). Needless to say he was blown away. I couldn't stop laughing when I found out he spent 4 days writing his own version of DataSet/Binding because he just didn't know it what .NET offered. Hell, someone did a C# app last year and he was upset because he "didn't want us getting pigeon-holed in new technologies." I cry myself to sleep every night... and since I work in state government you should probably be crying too.

BTW, anyone here attend TriNUG events?

2/26/2009 10:27:55 PM

Quote :

"he "didn't want us getting pigeon-holed in new technologies.""

Heh, yea ... because pidgeon-holing ourselves in old and out-dated technology just makes so much sense

2/26/2009 10:35:02 PM

Speaking of out-dated... one of our Microstation developer "specialists" just discovered C++'s MFC for the first time... MOTHER FUCKING MFC IN 2009!!1

[Edited on February 26, 2009 at 10:43 PM. Reason : i've been drinking but I speak the truth]

2/26/2009 10:42:46 PM

hahah. btw, i went to the RDU code camp a while back. i live in charlotte but i just so happened to be up that way that weekend. it was excellent.

2/26/2009 11:08:58 PM

The latest VS might have all of this, but I have been using VS less and less over the years. In general, I work on platform agnostic software.

- Does windows have any decent shell software? I wasnt a nix guy until a few years ago, and now I realize a good shell is indispensable.

- I also actually hate setting up projects in our current version of VS because it involves a billion different dialogue boxes. If you could edit the command line arguments directly and have them propagate to the UI correctly, that would be a good thing.

After a year of full time use, doing any kind of project setup in VS is tedious and painful. Maybe I'm a retard, but I feel that apps should be designed so that you should naturally be able to learn how to use a tool well after a prolong period of use. The worst part is when you mess with some setting and break something, but you can't figure out why something broke because the gui makes it hard to see what is going on.

In general, using VS for me is like using Word -- a constant battle to get it to do what I want it to do.

- Something like Scons is awesome because its easily (python) lets you do powerful build activities. We moved a project from a VS build system to a scons one and our headaches decreased a lot -- some gui doesn't change stuff unexpectedly for you and it's easier to debug build problems. It also let us easily and cheaply setup some automated things.

Using VS as an editor and using scons as the build system is a nice compromise.

- Search needs to be more pervasive and natural, like in xcode (smart folders).

- File locking in windows makes me want to kill babies. Something about the way I work causes me to run into this problem a lot when developing.

- distcc

- The best VS feature is the usefulness of its code completion. However, this has lost its status as the killer feature that caused me to use VS.

Quote :

"Even though I don't works somewhere this would be useful any more, I was kinda excited to hear they were making it easy to have projects use older compilers."

ditto

[Edited on February 26, 2009 at 11:30 PM. Reason : .]

2/26/2009 11:27:04 PM

Quote :

"- Does windows have any decent shell software? I wasnt a nix guy until a few years ago, and now I realize a good shell is indispensable."

Have you seen Powershell 2.0?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_PowerShell

2/27/2009 2:04:17 AM

^^What version of VS are you using now?

The quips you have seem to be largely in VS .NET and VS .NET 2003. 2005 should have addressed a lot of those issues.

Quote :

"The latest VS might have all of this, but I have been using VS less and less over the years. In general, I work on platform agnostic software."

VS is becoming more and more platform agnostic. Currently, through our partners, VS has pretty good Java, python and rails support. PHP is the one language I'm still waiting for. Based on the last two iterations, that trend toward an open environment should continue.

2/27/2009 1:01:09 PM

not sure if you'll know this but figured you might

i've read a little bit about some improvements regarding MVC in VS2010 - is MS going to be pushing the use of MVC for all .NET platforms moving forward?

3/9/2009 4:50:59 PM

i've seen a lot of movement in that direction too over the last couple years

i know at least for WPF, most of the experts are saying MVVM is the pattern of choice

3/9/2009 6:05:12 PM

Nice looking, cant wait to play with it.

3/9/2009 8:06:12 PM

^^ and ^^^

My little knowledge on the subject says you are both pretty correct.

MVC as a general design paradigm seems to be gaining more ground for all .NET platform solutions.

MVVM is specific to WPF, and really is an extension of MVC.

http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Continuum/MVVM/ for a recent talk about the pattern, and lots of good stuff in the comment discussion. VS2010 certainly takes the next steps in really supporting and guiding toward MVC-style development patterns.

3/9/2009 8:15:18 PM

anybody else using this regularly yet?

8/27/2009 9:33:23 AM