I have been watching a lot of you tube videos on Islam and Christianity. And I have witnessed a lot of hostility coming from Muslims. So in that I thought I would look more into the religion of Islam. In doing that I have found out a lot of crazy stuff on the origin of their religion and what most of the radical Muslims want:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4EpCwhgOCE&feature=PlayList&p=8F0D1C9F9F2EE9DD&index=0&playnext=1

I know a lot of moderate Muslims will say that Islam is a religion of peace, but I doubt these moderates actually live in the Middle East where all of the chaos is really happening. For them to say it's a religion of peace, they must not know the other side of the religion. This is something we all should be aware of if you look at what is happening to Europe and the struggle against Sharia Law in the UK.

3/2/2009 1:01:35 AM

The Crusades
The Inquisition
The expulsion of Jews from Europe
The forced conversion/slaughter of the New World
People waving "God hates fags" signs at the funerals of US servicemen
People bombing abortion clinics

Youtube is not a source for valid information
you are an idiot

[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 1:23 AM. Reason : ]

3/2/2009 1:21:37 AM

Great input man. I guess you'd have to be an idiot to watch these videos and see muslims blowing up churches and scream allah hu akbar in the streets to think it is actually a threat. It's retards like you that don't pay attention shit like this happening. You know that there are terrorist cells all over the United States. Trust me this is a far better source than the stuff the media allows you to watch on tv. There are actually people on there who care about peace in this world and have witnessed first hand to the atrocities the middle east.


Nice input about the mistakes Christians have made. But this isn't about them.

3/2/2009 1:42:10 AM

*Munches Popcorn*

3/2/2009 1:49:41 AM

^^

Quote :

"The Crusades The Inquisition The expulsion of Jews from Europe The forced conversion/slaughter of the New World People waving "God hates fags" signs at the funerals of US servicemen People bombing abortion clinics"

He said that a lot of hostility has come from muslims.
He didn't say that hostility hasn't come from christians.
In other words, nice straw-man.

Quote :

"Youtube is not a source for valid information"

Wrong. If only one piece of information on youtube is valid, and at least one certainly is, then youtube is a source for valid information. Perhaps you meant to put the word "generally" in your statement.

Quote :

"you are an idiot"

Well... You've used a straw-man and overstated a generalization.
What did he do that makes him an idiot?

3/2/2009 1:57:01 AM

Hello, and welcome to The Soap Box section of The Wolf Web.


It's nice to see that you've spent your first two posts here.


Now, first let me point out that you are severely outclassed. You've come here with a single Youtube video and some highly subjective opinions as the crux of your arguments.

Secondly, let me point out that you are a n00b supreme, and the aforementioned is proof positive of said fact.

Thirdly, GTFO.

3/2/2009 2:01:56 AM

^

Quote :

"some highly subjective opinions as the crux of your arguments"

Has he really made any arguments?
"Radical muslims are violent."
"Yes... they are.... and?"

Quote :

"Thirdly, GTFO"

Hey jignc1684:
kiljadn has many times the posts as you or I, so his e-penis is bigger and he gets to talk shit.
(At least that's how he sees it.)

3/2/2009 2:09:33 AM

Quote :

"I guess you'd have to be an idiot to watch these videos and see muslims blowing up churches and scream allah hu akbar in the streets to think it is actually a threat."

Jews, Hindus, and Christians still blow up Mosques. Also, up until fairly recently Catholics and Anglicans were blowing up each others' places of worship and social gathering. Would we have seen a thread out of you talking about the great Anglican plot to dominate the world?

And let's talk about the whole "blowing up churches" thing. You notice how at the very beginning of the video, the churches in question are in former Yugoslavia? Ever stop to ask why, in that particular part of the world, Muslims might be pissed at their Christian neighbors?

I don't want those churches destroyed any more than you do -- hell, even less so, because they're often Orthodox churches, and I'm an Orthodox Christian. But it was my coreligionists who coined the term "ethnic cleansing."

Quote :

"You know that there are terrorist cells all over the United States."

You have no proof for this statement. But, of course, there have been terrorist cells in the United States, and by far the most devastating was made up of the Muslims involved in 9/11. Of course, prior to that, the most devastating involved Timothy McVeigh and other thoroughly non-Muslim people.

Quote :

"Trust me this is a far better source than the stuff the media allows you to watch on tv."

Based on what?

Quote :

"There are actually people on there who care about peace in this world and have witnessed first hand to the atrocities the middle east."

Nobody in that video seemed especially peace-loving to me. And how could they be? If you accept as true the following:

1) Muslims want to dominate the world.
2) The world does not want to be dominated.

Then the only logical conclusion is that Muslims must be stopped. Through what peaceful means, pray tell?

Quote :

"Nice input about the mistakes Christians have made. But this isn't about them."

How is Islam different from Christianity or other religions with regards to violence and hope for world domination? Radical Muslims have done bad shit. Radical Christians have done bad shit. Radical Jews and Hindus have done bad shit. It's a central point of most Christian denominations that we should try to spread Christianity all over the world.

So we have two religions that call on their followers to spread their faith, and which each have certain segments that do terrible, violent things. Why are you giving the Muslims special attention?

3/2/2009 2:09:45 AM

[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 2:12 AM. Reason : lets go the other way with this one]

3/2/2009 2:11:03 AM

Quote :

"Why are you giving the Muslims special attention?"

Because he simply decided to. He hasn't claimed that muslims are more violent than christians, or that christians and jews are non-violent. You've made the assumption that he's implying that -- and perhaps he is. But he hasn't said so.

You can have a discussion or argument about something, and not other similar things.

"A lot of apples are red."
"Oh, and tomatoes aren't?"
"I'm not talking about tomatoes. I'm just talking about apples."
"And cherries, too. Tomatoes, cherries, and apples are all red. How are apples different from tomatoes or cherries with regards to being red."

(HE'S NOT MADE THAT CLAIM! -- wait for actual bigotry before taking aim.)

[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 2:25 AM. Reason : ]

3/2/2009 2:20:43 AM

Him I guess I should put a blindfold over my eyes and not see things for the way they really are. I am not gonna candy-coat anything...Islam is not a religion of peace. You can clearly see that from the muslims in this video. You can't confuse them with any other religion around the world. You heard it yourselves, if you seen the video, they want to take over the world and spread Islam everywhere. They're not gonna brainwash me.

Major difference between the bible and the Quran. The bible says to spread the love of Jesus Christ by stating what he had done. If you believe it he healed the blind, the sick, the lame, raised the dead, and was resurrected after he was crucified on the cross for you sins. The Quran on the other hand says to "prepare to destroy 'them' will all force, terrorize Allah's enemy and your enemy." It says the Jews and Christians are pigs and monkeys and to kill them at all costs.

^^^I don't see how telling a non-christian that Jesus died for your sins is going to kill you man. That is one of the many differences between Christianity and Islam.

3/2/2009 2:25:33 AM

^

Quote :

"Islam is not a religion of peace.......if you seen the video, they want..."

When you say "Islam", do you mean this particular sect of islam?... or do you mean islam in general? And, when you say "they", do you mean these particular radical muslims?... or do you mean all muslims in general?

[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 2:29 AM. Reason : [/benefit of the doubt]

3/2/2009 2:28:15 AM

^^^well then...

see ^^

[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 2:29 AM. Reason : .]

3/2/2009 2:29:00 AM

^^does the Quran not say

Quote :

""prepare to destroy 'them' will all force, terrorize Allah's enemy and your enemy.""

Did Muhammed not kill 600-900 jews. And then to top that marry aisha when she was 6 years old and then have sex with her when she was 9 years old. And now Muslims all over the world think it's okay to marry girls as young as 9. That's just disgusting. Then he took his adopted son's wife as his own and said it was okay for him because he was Allah's messenger and he said that adoption is forbidden by Allah. And finally he set a limit at only (only?) having 4 wives at a time and then he broke it and said that it was ok for him only because he is Allah's messenger.

This doesn't sound like a prophet of God.

[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 2:41 AM. Reason : +]

3/2/2009 2:38:39 AM

i'm sorry?

Elijah had God send a bear, a fucking bear, to kill some kids for picking on his baldness

does THAT sound like the behavior of a prophet

go fuck yourself

3/2/2009 2:44:41 AM

That was Elisha. And it wasn't him that did it...it was God himself...You see the clear difference there. It was God that did it and they were probably more like young adults. I would much rather God take care of judging who is good and evil, rather than some jerk off with a bomb attached to himself killing everyone around him.

3/2/2009 2:48:17 AM

^lol... You're really not making a very good case.

First of all, from a factual standpoint, what the bible and quran say doesn't matter, except perhaps for noting that they both say a lot of contradictory stuff.

Second, your opinion on the alleged practices of ancient cultures doesn't matter.

Third, you need to be clear about whether or not you're generalizing all muslims as being violent.

3/2/2009 2:49:17 AM

4th, you need to go fuck yourself

3/2/2009 2:50:15 AM

while i know this is like the COMPLETE INVERSE of what the goal was

i feel this is apropos

Quote :

"Hi. You're probably new to the Wolf Web. In fact, I'm willing to bet you're new to college in general. It's an exciting time, isn't it? I'm sure that you have been exposed to many ideas and perspectives you'd never realized existed, and you're just bursting with enthusiasm at the thought of sharing a few ideas of your own with your peers now that you find yourself in an academic environment that seems perfectly suited to such an exchange. Why don't we go a little further? Odds are you consider yourself very intelligent. In fact, you're probably so intelligent that you've figured out all the quirks and kinks of organized religion--or at least Christianity. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You were probably raised in a Christian household and resent that upbringing for limiting your personal freedoms, so it's only natural that you'd seek to undermine Christ's teachings and save others from having such a faulty belief system for their own good. Pretty cool of you, isn't it? You've really got it together. FUCK YOU YOU STUPID FUCKING FAGGOT COLLEGE KID LET ME TELL YOU A SECRET NONE OF YOUR THOUGHTS ON RELIGION ARE RADICAL OR EVEN THOUGHT-PROVOKING IT'S NO SECRET YOU GOT THEM OFF A FUCKING WEBSITE WE'VE ALL READ THE PROSELYTIZER QUESTIONNAIRE TOO NOTHING YOU CAN SAY IS GOING TO LEND A FRESH OUTLOOK DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT FOR SEVERAL FUCKING CENTURIES NOW SOME OF THE MOST EDUCATED PEOPLE IN THE ANNALS OF HUMAN HISTORY HAVE DEVOTED THEIR LIVES TO ANSWERING DEEPER THEOLOGICAL CONCERNS THAN YOUR PETTY BULLSHIT ABOUT THE DISCREPANCIES IN THE GENEALOGIES OF CHRIST IN THE GOSPELS? I MEAN HOLY FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE THE ONLY COCKSUCKER WHO EVER NOTICED THAT OR SOMETHING?! WAKE THE FUCK UP YOU'RE STILL JUST A STUPID KID AND WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS SHAMEFUL INCONSIDERATE AND DISRESPECTFUL BECAUSE MAYBE YOU'RE TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY TO LIVE ACCORDING TO A STRICT MORAL CODE AND MAYBE YOU'RE TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY TO ACTUALLY TRY AND DEVELOP A STRONG, HONORABLE CHARACTER BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT FOR YOU TO ATTACK MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY TO PLAY THE VICTIM TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY "FORCE THEIR BELIEFS" ON YOU BY HANDING OUT A FUCKING PAMPHLET I MEAN HOLY FUCKING CHRIST WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS TEN TIMES WORSE GET OVER YOURSELF ALREADY THIS REBELLION AGAINST MOMMY AND DADDY ISN'T IMPRESSING ANYONE WE'VE SEEN IT BEFORE YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST YOU ARE NOT EVEN REMARKABLE STOP ARGUING WITH GARY HE IS MAKING A FOOL OF YOU I SWEAR UPON THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE PIERCED FUCKING JEW KING THAT IF YOU PULL THIS SALISBURYBOY, SYLVERSHADOW KIND OF SHIT ON ME YOU WORTHLESS WICCAN PANTYSTAIN I WILL SPLIT THE TENDER TISSUES OF YOUR WEEPING ASSHOLE WITH A HARDCOVER EDITION OF THE NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION OF THE HOLY FUCKING BIBLE YOU THINK YOU'RE SO FUCKING SMART I'D LIKE TO SEE YOU DO THE SAME SHIT WITH ANY RELIGION BESIDES CHRISTIANITY OR JUDAISM WITH SOME BOOK BESIDES THE BIBLE OR THE TORAH YOU AIDS-FELCHING CUM FLAKE SO PUT THAT IN YOUR FUCKING PIPE YOU JUST BOUGHT FROM BUDDHA'S BELLY THE FIRST WEEKEND YOU WERE UP HERE AND SMOKE IT YOU FUCKING FAGGOT COLLEGE KID and that's my word."

and thats FroshKiller's word

3/2/2009 2:59:07 AM

Quote :

"The Crusades <900 years ago, relevant> The Inquisition <500-700 years ago, relevant> The expulsion of Jews from Europe <what??> The forced conversion/slaughter of the New World <400-600 years ago, and yeah...> People waving "God hates fags" signs at the funerals of US servicemen <a group of maybe 100 people> People bombing abortion clinics <has happened, how many times?> Youtube is not a source for valid information you are an idiot"

Stupid OP, but you sir are an idiot, or troll baiting. It's not worth debating you, because it would turn into some quote bomb orgy that no one wants to read.

Islam is a much greater threat to secular Western life than Christianity. Period.

3/2/2009 8:08:53 AM

^^ That is the first time I actually read through that. Woah.

3/2/2009 8:25:55 AM

Quote :

" have witnessed a lot of hostility coming from Muslims."

Where have you been the last 1500 years.

Since the founding of Islam by the prophet himself there has been almost a constant fight back and forth between Chrisitan Nations
and those of Islam. A rivalry bigger than UNC v Duke. Sometimes the islamic nations are on top sometimes the christian nations.

Quote :

"You know that there are terrorist cells all over the United States"

Contrary to the American terrorist hysteria. I am more afraid of the people entering our country legally versus people hopping the
fence from Mexico or known terrorists sneaking in under a fake passport.

Also, I'd say the most dangerous sleeper cells in this country are not even bearded towel heads fighting for the name of Islam. Has
someone mentioned above Tim McVeigh anyone?

Quote :

"Hello, and welcome to The Soap Box section of The Wolf Web. It's nice to see that you've spent your first two posts here. ... Thirdly, GTFO. "

LOL

Quote :

"up until fairly recently Catholics and Anglicans were blowing up each others' places of worship and social gathering"

Hell this was going on even up into the latest decade. The IRA has been kinda quiet lately though.

Quote :

"The bible says to spread the love of Jesus Christ by stating what he had done"

Nothing spreads Jesus's love more than burnings at the Cross, Inquisition, enslavement of non-christian "heathens", Crusades to the Holy land, and repression
of those that are/are not Catholic/Protestant depending on your countries leanings.

Historically Islamic nations have had a better track record of religious tolerance than Christian Nations. Although, in most cases you were
considered 2nd class citizens. Most christian nations on contrast until the last couple 100 years you either believed what the crown did
or you were a traitor/heretic. As much as we talk shit about Iran; even in this Islamic Fundamentalist nation, citizens are allowed to practic other
faiths.

3/2/2009 9:21:11 AM

this thread failed with the title.

3/2/2009 9:52:46 AM

I'm going to guess that jignc1684 is one of those campus crusade evangelicals whose beliefs are based on the fear mongering that evangelical preachers use to keep their congregation coming (and thereby increasing revenue from collections)

3/2/2009 10:09:49 AM

In fact, we atheists are the only ones who don't go around killing for crazy reasons.

*waiting for the ever-present BUT HITLER WAS AN ATHEIST BLAH BLAH response*

Oh, and jignc1684, go read your bible for the first time. You obviously haven't yet. Remember your god, for instance, flooding the ENTIRE PLANET? Or sending Abraham to kill his son, only stopping him at the last second? Or, perhaps the most confusing instance, sending his son... who was actually himself... to be brutally murdered on the cross so that he could forgive mankind if they believe in his son (who is actually him) as their savior?

More examples (plenty) here
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8

God tells Joshua to "pursue after your enemies and smite the hindmost of them." (Kick their butts.) Don't let any of them escape "for the Lord your God hath delivered them into your hand." 10:19

After Joshua kills all the inhabitants of Ai, burns their city, and hangs their king on a tree, he kills some animals and burns them as a "peace offering" to his warlike God. 8:31

"They slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it ... And the Lord was with Judah." (You can tell by the number of innocent people he killed.) 1:17, 19

David kills two thirds of the Moabites and makes the rest slaves. He also cripples the captured horses. 8:2-4

"David slew of the Syrians two and twenty thousand men ... and the Lord preserved David withersoever he went." 8:5-6, 14

Your god is as brutal and evil as theirs. Deal with it.

[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 10:18 AM. Reason : .]

3/2/2009 10:14:05 AM

You knew from the start that he was implying the Christianity > Islam.

It's not the religion itself that is the problem; it's the dickwad leaders and blind followers. There are plenty of non-religious organizations that will do horrible things given enough power and dickwad leadership (I'm looking at you PETA).

It's just that religious organizations tend to lend themselves to this dickwad/blind follower hierarchy.

3/2/2009 10:22:30 AM

No, it's the religion AND the followers. The bible inspires almost as much or as much hate and violence as the koran. Also, were it not for Judaism, Islam wouldn't exist (obviously, nor would christianity), so we'd all be better off.

If those religions didn't exist, they couldn't be used as excuses to kill the millions who have died for such reasons. Would the world be perfect? No - but society would have progressed much farther along by now were it not for the hindrance and war that religion brings.

But that's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to introduce jignc1684 to a good old fashioned TWW ass-whoopin'

Oh, and for the record, my prediction is a continuation in the drop of religious followers in industrialized nations until half the civilized world has little or no religious affiliation - then scientology will step in (or crystal healing, or some other modern but still stupid pseudo-religious nonsense). Mark my words.



[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 10:33 AM. Reason : .]

3/2/2009 10:24:32 AM

Before I get to the quote-bombing, which will be read by a surprising number of people who don't find words confusing, I'd like to have a short, quote-free word with Ytsejam.

The Inquisition ended a little less than 200 years ago. A number of European countries attempted to expel the Jews on several occasions, and that's when they were lucky -- as they weren't in Spain, where it was often a choice between a faked conversion or torture and death. The systematic slaughter of the indigenous population of the New World continued in Argentina until barely a hundred years ago. And all of that without mentioning organized Christian complicity in the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia, and the Rwandan genocide.

If you're going to attack my arguments based on the dates of their occurrence, you could at least get the dates right.

Unfortunately, I don't have much else to say by way of response, because you gave me nothing to respond to.

-----

Quote :

"In fact, we atheists are the only ones who don't go around killing for crazy reasons. "

I'll refer you to the history of Communism.

Quote :

"wait for actual bigotry before taking aim."

Why bother? His position was obvious from the thread title. I realize that strictly speaking my argument wasn't particularly well-constructed, but I don't feel compelled to bring my A-game against the kind of brilliant minds that condemn a billion people based on a youtube video and, from what I can tell, nothing else.

Quote :

"You can clearly see that from the muslims in this video...You heard it yourselves, if you seen the video, they want to take over the world and spread Islam everywhere."

There are more than a billion -- that's 1,000,000,000 -- Muslims on the planet. If that video contained a million Muslims calling for world domination (and it doesn't), that would be .001% of Muslims. You are judging 99.009% based on the words of that tiny fraction.

Quote :

"The bible says to spread the love of Jesus Christ by stating what he had done."

Which is fine in theory, but it turns out we really like to kill each other over religion regardless of whether or not that actually fits into the religion.

Quote :

"This doesn't sound like a prophet of God."

Nobody's saying you have to accept him as a prophet.

But the Bible is full to the brim of equally disturbing shit. Daughters getting their father drunk to have sex with him leaps to mind.

3/2/2009 10:58:18 AM

its a matter of simple math.

3/2/2009 11:04:49 AM

Quote :

"I'll refer you to the history of Communism."

Though any murders being committed by communists are obviously also awful, they weren't committed because of (lack of) religious faith. They were committed because of cold, calculating political realities. Awful, wrong, indefensible realities, but they weren't (for the most part) crazy reasons. That doesn't make the murders any less the right thing to do, of course, but it does make my sentence still true.

[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 11:40 AM. Reason : .]

3/2/2009 11:17:03 AM

Semantics Dirty. Without religion people would still be killing each other for reasons that you could describe as "crazy". I submit again that the religion is ultimately not responsible for the horrible actions of the followers any more than Son of Sam's dog is responsible. People are crazy, murderous assholes and will continue to be long after we give up on voodoo and fairy tales.

3/2/2009 11:31:22 AM

Quote :

"angel rapers"

Let's make it "Angel Rappers" and make it a hip-hop group *rapists*, not rapers

Quote :

"There are more than a billion -- that's 1,000,000,000 -- Muslims on the planet. If that video contained a million Muslims calling for world domination (and it doesn't), that would be .001% of Muslims."

Actually, a million out of a billion would be 0.001, or 0.1%

Quote :

"You are judging 99.009% based on the words of that tiny fraction."

If we go with the 0.001%, 100 - 0.001 = 99.999%, not 99.009. But actually, it is 100 - 0.1 = 99.9% (assuming it was a million people in the video).

***********************************************************

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I was born to teach numeracy to people

***********************************************************

OK, onto the real topic. I am one of 2 or 3 Muslims (at least nominally, or by birth) on this board, at least those who post actively. So what do I think?

I will be honest here. There are millions of Muslims around the world who want to impose Shariah on the whole world, nation by nation, AND are actively doing something to make that happen. And then there are tens and tens of millions who are not actively doing anything to make it happen, but would love for those who are the doers to succeed.

I don't believe there is any other religion out there which has followers -- any number -- who are actively trying to impose (read: using force/coercion/violence/pc gone mad) their way on the world at large.

Christians: Used to, but not anymore.
Jews: Forget about it.
Hindus: They (hardliners) do try to convert by force Muslims and esp Christians, but ONLY in India.
Buddhists: No.

Who else?

And these Muslims are crazy scary. I am scared of them. And they are making some substantial gains in European countries, esp in the UK. And they have also made gains within Muslim countries, by introducing more stringent rules and laws, such as in Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, etc. And they will do what they can to achieve their goals, even if it means killing innocent Muslims who stand in their way or oppose them.

3/2/2009 11:32:51 AM

If religion did not exist, people in power would use another form of mass control to incite hatred, genocide, etc. It's ultimately not about the religion, but about power. Religion is nothing more than a tool for certain powerful individuals to serve their own agendas.

3/2/2009 11:34:12 AM

Communism is a perfect example. Deprived of religious reasons to kill others we will simply find other reasons. The problem with mankind is a tradition of violence, it turns whatever idiology you happen to hold into a killer. I'm sure libertarians that happen to watch too many war movies will start shooting government employees any minute now.

3/2/2009 11:37:15 AM

Quote :

"Though any murders being committed by communists are obviously also awful, they weren't committed because of (lack of) religious faith."

http://Though any murders being committed by communists are obviously also awful, they weren't committed because of (lack of) religious faith.

Atheist communists killed religious people because of their beliefs.

Quote :

"Actually, a million out of a billion would be 0.001, or 0.1% if we go with the 0.001%, 100 - 0.001 = 99.999%, not 99.009. But actually, it is 100 - 0.1 = 99.9% (assuming it was a million people in the video)."

Oh God damn it. That's what I get for trying to do multiple things at once, especially when one of those things involves simple arithmetic. Whatever. The point stands.

3/2/2009 11:39:20 AM

Actually, I have a better answer.

I would argue that true communism, as was practiced in Soviet Russia, China, etc, requires the loyalty to the state and the government system being held with a faith equal to that of a religious one. The reason those governments remove religion is because it gets in the way of the people's worship of The State / The Party / Great Leader. They're still religious, and they still believe in a god - just not a supernatural one... though sometimes, even that's not true. Often the leader (See North Korea) is seen as very god-like.

Quote :

"Without religion people would still be killing each other for reasons that you could describe as "crazy"."

This in no way invalidates the fact that religion brings about murder and mayhem more than anything else we know.

[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 11:42 AM. Reason : .]

3/2/2009 11:40:36 AM

Sure it does. You're blaming religion when it's simply a tool.

It's like blaming the internet for child porn.

3/2/2009 11:52:01 AM

I'm saying it's NOT (just) a tool. It's used as a tool, but the people using it also believe it (well, most of the time), so it's also a cause. As funny as it would be if he were, the pope isn't just a guy who wants to be in charge. He BELIEVES that he knows what god's will is and he BELIEVES that he was chosen by god to lead the people and proselytize for him.

I'm also not implying that organized religion is the problem. I think anything that causes people to consider faith or "beliefs" instead of using evidence-based thinking is dangerous. I think if mankind could somehow finally realize that evidence is the best tool for working out thoughts, less people would die for stupid reasons and we'd be happier as a species.

Not that I think that's possible - I'm just saying it's true.

*insert inevitable "you're a tool" joke*

[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 11:56 AM. Reason : .]

3/2/2009 11:53:28 AM

Quote :

"It's ultimately not about the religion, but about power. Religion is nothing more than a tool for certain powerful individuals to serve their own agendas."

True

Although in the Middle Ages until the reformation i'd say the church also served as a check valve for overly ambitious/tyrannous leaders, way to convey moral/civil behaviors to the common people, and to provide a common vision/ground for the leaders of christian nations (kinda like being in a big frat). The latter enabling the many nations to work together to oppose Islamic nations that were spreading their influence into europe.

3/2/2009 1:08:41 PM

All of the religions that spawned from Judaism, and Judaism itself, are destructive belief systems. The old testament has the same ridiculous bullshit that you find in the Qur'an, which involves killing people for things other than murder. Sorry, that's wrong - you know it, I know it, and if you're a Christian taking offense to that, then your problem is with the bible, not with me.

Of course, the ultimate problem is that these holy texts have no place in today's society. No follower of religion can tell you why they believe that their particular holy book holds the complete truth. Any time you have a ton of people going around thinking that "God" is answering their prayers, and that they're privy to information that "non-believers" aren't, you're going to run into problems. You don't see atheists blowing up abortion clinics or driving planes into buildings. I wonder why? Probably because they don't have an imaginary voice in their head telling them that their immoral actions are okay, and even praise-worthy. Beliefs inform actions, and when "beliefs" are really just fucked up ideals projected onto whatever religion is culturally accepted - which they always are - innocent people get killed.

3/2/2009 1:23:20 PM

^ agreed - the whole pretext of Abraham going to the mountain has facist roots.

"you must sacrifice your son for the cause" -- what better way to raise an army?

facism in all its forms needs to be fought - its a long hard fight, but we'll get there.

3/2/2009 1:34:12 PM

People will naturally want to group themselves. And a mob is going to naturally gravitate towards a confident or charismatic leader that offers that group a direction. Give a bunch of people a religion, even (hypothetically) one that explicitly supports war, and they'll just wander around semi-aimlessly kind-of-believing in something. Then give them a pope, a priest, a politician, an imam, or some other person with power trying to reinforce what these people think they believe in, and implying that they are better than others because of their group association, and you end up with a violent bunch of fanatics.

Without religion people would simply destroy each other over national pride, political party, race, moral disagreements, whatever. People by and large are stupid and violet fuckers who by nature look to join into a group and by nature judge others by groups. It's that sort of group-thought that creates all these problems, religion is just the way it's manifesting itself right now.

[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 1:40 PM. Reason : .]

3/2/2009 1:39:34 PM

Quote :

"Probably because they don't have an imaginary voice in their head telling them that their immoral actions are okay"

2000 years ago they would be prophets

Today we call these people schizophrenics


[Edited on March 2, 2009 at 1:43 PM. Reason : f]

3/2/2009 1:39:36 PM

Quote :

"Without religion people would simply destroy each other over national pride, political party, race, moral disagreements, whatever. People by and large are stupid and violet fuckers who by nature look to join into a group and by nature judge others by groups. It's that sort of group-thought that creates all these problems, religion is just the way it's manifesting itself right now."

This may have been true, at some point. Some kind of religious/political interaction got us to where we are now. Yet, the process somehow resulted in individuals like us being born, who could consciously reject "group think." I don't know many true fundamentalists that are my age. I have to suspect that the younger generation is adept at questioning strange traditions - at least I always have been, and there hasn't been anything peculiar about my upbringing.

3/2/2009 1:57:42 PM

It doesn't seem like a change in the nature of humans themselves... more just a byproduct of the progress of technology and society. Also, such thinkers may have existed in the middle ages, too, but that they were also smart enough to know that if they spoke up, they'd be excommunicated and then burned to death.

And while I'd like to think that each generation is getting closer to individual independent thought, it seems like that group will always be a minority against an overwhelming majority of people who don't even know enough about their own human nature to even bother questioning it.

Hell, even the growing atheist movement is in (large) part a result of group-thought amongst college-age pseudo-intellectuals wanting to ride the waves of the social change.

3/2/2009 2:08:36 PM

i think this guy Got TFO

thank goodness

3/2/2009 2:20:50 PM

No from the beginning I have been implying that Islam is dangerous. I don't need to build a case for Christianity, because they are not forcefully trying to spread their religion across the globe. In the new testament, God clearly sets a distinction between Church and State.

Quote :

"And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it. And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him (Mark 12:13-17)."

Islam wants to take over the world and put it under Sharia Law. Where all of the free rights you have now under America is gone. They say that democracy is evil and is the reason for all of the wars. Watch this You Tube play list about this woman from Lebanon, which was a democratic free Christian country before all of the Muslims infiltrated their country.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8fa9yKQeTY&feature=PlayList&p=206785AE8BCD6454&index=0&playnext=1

p.s. I know she's hot, but be mature please. Actually listen to what she says.

3/2/2009 2:30:28 PM

lol@Christianity not trying to spread itself across the globe.

3/2/2009 2:31:50 PM

Quote :

"Where all of the free rights you have now under America is gone."

I heard there was this one group in America who wants to impose their own morality by writing it into US law.

Or can the gays marry yet?

3/2/2009 2:34:50 PM

that's TOTALLY different

3/2/2009 2:35:36 PM