So I freely admit I don't know all that much about Unions...I know that when we had an event production company and we went to certain venues/cities, we had to hire union labor...and needless to say it wasn't ideal for us, anyway. Mostly because of the strict rules involving forced breaks and maximum work hours...but for the union members it was great I'm sure. Aside from that experience, my only other has been when I interned for NBC Sports and we literally weren't allowed to touch a TV in the room because we weren't members...So there were plenty of times that shit got fucked up because we had to wait for a union member to press 'on' or something.

But....I'm curious to know how much dues for members actually are. I assume there are many unions where it's mandatory to belong to if you want to have a job at certain companies and/or industries...right?

3/5/2009 12:47:37 PM

dues are different for every single union....

3/5/2009 12:49:39 PM

So the AFL-CIO is just a group of those unions then?

3/5/2009 12:53:12 PM

AFL-CIO is an umbrella group for a large number of unions in the United States such as UAW and SAG. You can get a complete list here: http://www.aflcio.org/aboutus/unions/

Dues vary union to union. When I was a member of UAW Local 2322, the dues were 2% of your salary if you were a union member or .5% if you weren't. Even if you don't want to participate in the union, they still collect a part of your salary since technically you're benefiting from their collective bargaining efforts. Personally, I joined up since the dues more than made up for the parking discount I received.

3/5/2009 2:02:38 PM

Unions were pretty good back in the day when they let the good times roll even when workers fell into the meat grinders. Now they just help people whose best qualification is that they have a pulse land jobs that pull down $75/hour in total compensation.

3/5/2009 2:09:24 PM

Union laborers are inherently lazy and have no pride in their work.

I have no respect for union people.

3/5/2009 2:23:26 PM

Quote :

"Union laborers are inherently lazy and have no pride in their work."

Then again, at $19.5k per year, full medical and dental, and discounted parking as a graduate TA, I can live with the union stigma.

3/5/2009 2:29:37 PM

dammit, i did not account for the possibility that someone i liked would be the subject of my trolling.

So, TAs are unionized?

3/5/2009 2:45:03 PM

Quote :

"jobs that pull down $75/hour in total compensation."

that's been fairly well debunked or at least it's not nearly as cut and dry as that.

^not at ncsu they're not. we don't have collective bargaining rights for state employees.

3/5/2009 2:52:16 PM

^^ TA's and RA's are unionized up at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. Given that this is also the university that had the top Marxist economics department in the nation at one point, I would have been surprised if they weren't.

And again, I only signed up for the parking discount.

[Edited on March 5, 2009 at 3:02 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2009 3:01:41 PM

my friend is a TA at amherst in the linguistics department. small world.

(and her fiance got screwed by the closed-shop university workers union)

[Edited on March 5, 2009 at 3:04 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2009 3:03:37 PM

Blanket assessments of union workers and unions are pretty faulty since laws vary by state, jobs vary, unions vary, etc.

So any blanket assessment is either based on stereotype or is probably wrong.

For instance, a union can help you get training in a skilled trade and later help you find employment around the country. It's smart if you're a journeyman in a skilled trade.

3/5/2009 6:48:42 PM

I would never survive in a union. I have a strong work ethic and they would hate me for making them look bad. I'm driven to make anything I do more efficient. Intelligence and curiosity is just not a good fit for union work.

[Edited on March 5, 2009 at 7:21 PM. Reason : s]

3/5/2009 7:21:06 PM

hey look at me! i spew talking points!

3/5/2009 7:24:23 PM

Unions are bad for business. There's really no debate.

3/5/2009 7:24:44 PM

so are environmental regulations and safety regulations.

sometimes someone looking out for the little guy is better in the long run for everyone.

i just can't stand when people make blanket statements about a complex issue.

3/5/2009 7:26:52 PM

Quote :

"I would never survive in a union. I have a strong work ethic and they would hate me for making them look bad. I'm driven to make anything I do more efficient. Intelligence and curiosity is just not a good fit for union work."

You're in luck, there really aren't any unions currently organizing the self-righteous.

3/5/2009 7:29:39 PM

Quote :

"I would never survive in a union.""

Quote :

"Interests : doughnuts Favorite Quote : Welcome to Bojangles"

you're probably right.

3/5/2009 7:31:16 PM

^^ well that's kind of my point. I was being a little bit melodramatic, but basically, any union I've seen looks down on people who strive to beat expectations

3/5/2009 7:40:48 PM

Quote :

"^^ well that's kind of my point. I was being a little bit melodramatic, but basically, any union I've seen looks down on people who strive to beat expectations"

is this based on the stereotype or your experience?

public sector unions shouldnt write tax policy. thats all i have to say about that.

3/5/2009 7:42:42 PM

its based on my experience and on many many stories I've heard from multiple people

and seriously, you're gonna disagree? pfffff troll.

3/5/2009 7:45:44 PM

what union(s) did you interact with?

3/5/2009 7:53:38 PM

Quote :

"its based on my experience and on many many stories I've heard from multiple people and seriously, you're gonna disagree? pfffff troll."

I'm not disagreeing with your personal experience, I don't know you. Chill out. I'm just saying, there are great unionized workplaces and there are bad ones just like anywhere else. Unions just make good political scapegoats and seem to inevitably grow corrupt w/ time.

3/5/2009 7:56:51 PM

I can't fathom an argument against meritocracy.

I can't even comprehend what kind of mindset would lead someone to oppose a meritocracy.

[Edited on March 5, 2009 at 7:59 PM. Reason : s]

3/5/2009 7:58:55 PM

Quote :

"I can't even fathom an argument against meritocracy. I can't even comprehend what kind of mindset would lead someone to oppose a meritocracy."

Do you seriously think that there's not any sort of raises/advancement in union labor? It's different, but it's not like you work forever at the same rate and job. Unions aren't all the UAW and most aren't even the NEA. In my experience in a union work place (which was actually a public sector job) there was plenty of chance to advance, just as much as at any other job I've had.

[Edited on March 5, 2009 at 8:03 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2009 8:00:39 PM

Quote :

"Even if you don't want to participate in the union, they still collect a part of your salary since technically you're benefiting from their collective bargaining efforts"

This is why I hate unions. Yeah, you don't have to be part of the Union, but you still have to pay them? No thanks.

On top of that, there seems to be a huge disconnect from the union leaders and normal workers in the larger unions. Instead of doing what's best for the workers, they do what's best for the union and themselves. Then you get into politics, where unions support politicians. So they money that you have to pay them, is going to a politician you don't support.

Unions are very outdated. Unions were needed 100 years ago when the government did nothing to protect workers from bad working conditions. Nowadays, with the speed of communication and the ability for the government to monitor conditions it just doesn't seem necessary. You already have a minimum wage, and safety regulations, what more do you need? There should be some government dictated protection for workers, but not unions.

3/5/2009 8:23:01 PM

Quote :

"This is why I hate unions. Yeah, you don't have to be part of the Union, but you still have to pay them? No thanks."

Unless you live in the northeast/midwest/parts of the west, this doesn't apply.

Quote :

"There should be some government dictated protection for workers, but not unions."

Well I'd rather safety regulations be decided by mediation b/w workers and management and not some bureaucrat but that's just me, I don't really trust government as much as you I guess.

[Edited on March 5, 2009 at 8:45 PM. Reason : /]

3/5/2009 8:43:57 PM

Quote :

"Do you seriously think that there's not any sort of raises/advancement in union labor? It's different, but it's not like you work forever at the same rate and job."

I don't think you got what he was getting at.

3/5/2009 8:59:34 PM

unions have lost their usefulness. now they are greedy institutions that would rather kill the work for their members than effectively compromise with a company...see GM

3/5/2009 9:09:13 PM

Quote :

"Do you seriously think that there's not any sort of raises/advancement in union labor? It's different"

Of course I think there are raises and advancement in union labor. And of course it is different, which gets to the heart of my point! It is different because advancement in a union is not based on merit.

I can't fathom an argument against meritocracy.

I can't even comprehend what kind of mindset would lead someone to oppose a meritocracy.

3/5/2009 10:34:01 PM

I've worked at 3 places. Two of which didn't have unions. The places without unions have far better workers and working environments. All a union is good for is to protect the lazy workers from doing work. It is highly political and acts as an umbrella for sorryness to hide. Union's are a big part of what is wrong with today's industries.

3/5/2009 10:51:17 PM

I'm in favor of unions on the basis that people have the right to organize and collaborate. I'm not in favor of state, federal, or local laws that interfere with the labor process in any way with regards to this issue. If enough auto workers can get together to force new contracts, well, bully for them. If they can't, tough shit. As long as nobody starts shooting/beating/molesting/etc. each other, that's an issue between management and labor.

Of course, at times it can be difficult to make neutral laws on the subject. And there are, very rarely, national security issues to be taken into account.

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 2:12 AM. Reason : ]

3/6/2009 2:12:26 AM

Quote :

"Of course I think there are raises and advancement in union labor. And of course it is different, which gets to the heart of my point! It is different because advancement in a union is not based on merit."

Right, union workplaces have advancement based on kissing ass alone or by seeing who is the laziest. Definitely not a place for rugged ubermensch such as yourself and others in this thread. Good thing you'll never have to do garbage collection or work in a mine like those idiot union guys.

Quote :

"I'm in favor of unions on the basis that people have the right to organize and collaborate. I'm not in favor of state, federal, or local laws that interfere with the labor process in any way with regards to this issue. If enough auto workers can get together to force new contracts, well, bully for them. If they can't, tough shit. As long as nobody starts shooting/beating/molesting/etc. each other, that's an issue between management and labor. Of course, at times it can be difficult to make neutral laws on the subject. And there are, very rarely, national security issues to be taken into account."

This

3/6/2009 1:01:57 PM

I'm a project engineer for a company with a union workforce (not in the union myself). My experience with unions is that they help out those within their particular union, but frequently at a high price to the employer. That's fine, companies will attempt to prey on labor if they are not organized so it is a check against the power of employers.

However, public sector unions work for the government. In effect, they work for us. I am opposed to these unions due to their extremely high costs to taxpayers, and their incredible clout in politics. Teachers unions have made it so that it is almost impossible to fire bad teachers once they get tenure (only 2 years in CA). The Nurses Union is a sympathetic and extremely powerful group, and they use their considerable clout to influence politics and negotiate more lucrative pay increases every year. The CA Prison Guards Union has been an ardent opponent of reform in a state with the worst prisons in the nation. And to top it all off, the state is going bankrupt from ridiculous pensions to state employees that were agreed upon decades ago, when there was cash to go around.

3/6/2009 1:10:05 PM

All you have to do is compare the shitty build quality of a car made by union labor (i.e. big three) against a foreign or domestic non-union shop. In my job, if my boss tells me a job has to be done before I leave, it will get done before i leave. In the Union world, as soon as the whistle blows, i leave with whether a job is finished or not due to a long and incredibly hard to read contract.

good reading:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_22_06_JS.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock060903.asp
http://www.nrtwc.org/newsroom/256.htm

3/6/2009 1:19:18 PM

^Linking articles from the National Review will not win you many fans on this site. Partisan sites like that are frequently full of misinformation and flat-out bullshit. Lonesnark found that out quickly when linking to the Cato Institute or Heritage Foundation I forget which. The other links are valid.

The big-3 shitty build quality also trickles down from the top. American cars are often poorly designed and under-engineered, and you can't really blame that on the Unions.

3/6/2009 1:31:14 PM

one is a reprint from the orange county register and the other is a john stossel article.

i wouldn't call those "valid" exactly. better than the NRO perhaps.

3/6/2009 1:33:59 PM

^^ why not? the unions are sucking up all the money that could otherwise be spent on R&D

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 1:36 PM. Reason : s]

3/6/2009 1:35:42 PM

^ GM's R&D budget is huge. That's not the problem. The problem (other than the unions) is a legacy of bean-counting, complacency and resistance to change in management. Read what Kirk Kerkorian had to say about their corporate culture.

^^The OC Register is a rag, but no more biased than most of the other obviously partisan newspapers. They gotta do something to counter the heavy left-leanings of the LA Times.

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 1:38 PM. Reason : 2]

3/6/2009 1:35:58 PM

the fact remains, blue collar union laborers are worthless excuses for human beings.

I'm glad i live in an area where career darwinism rules. (did i just make up 'career darwinism'? if so, y'all know what i'm talking about)

3/6/2009 2:23:26 PM

ive never been one to believe that every aspect of your life should be a race so i appreciate job security.

also, i challenge you to go say this sort of thing to my girlfriend's family, which has consisted of many a miner. heck, talk to anyone around sago, wv. management wouldnt listen to union concerns, it was costing them too much. but hey, you're the bootstrapping young tough guy.

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 3:39 PM. Reason : .]

3/6/2009 3:37:07 PM

oh i'm sure if i expressed my opinion to them, they'd probably attack or kill me.

also another trait among these winners -- just a bunch of thugs.

i also appreciate job security, but mine comes from simply being valuable to my employer by virtue of productivity, rather than racketeering.

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 4:09 PM. Reason : adf]

3/6/2009 4:08:34 PM

no more of a caricature than your internet toughguy routine

3/6/2009 4:10:02 PM

i don't know what you're talking about.

i have made no claims to being able to kick anyone's ass, or whatever.

3/6/2009 4:19:39 PM

I work for a Union Contractor, From what I have seen in the last 2 years alot of bullshit takes place. I am so sick and tired of dealing with the Building Trades Business Agents, they are always complaining about stupid shit.

And the rivalry between the different crafts is ridiculous.

For Example: I was working on a project at a power plant in MO. We had about 100 Boilermakers and 75 Ironworkers. They werent aloud to drive onto the site, they had to park outside and all be bused in. Well early on in the project we had to buy additional buses because they refused to ride together on the same bus. They also refuse to share the same man trailers. If boilermakers get a certain tool then the ironworkers bitch because they didnt get that tool also and vice versa.

Also we had to throw one Ironworker off the site because he kept "forgetting" to use a beamer while up on the Iron, he was warned twice. As soon as we escorted him off site, the rest of them fucking followed him and refused to work for the rest of the day.

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 4:56 PM. Reason : .]

3/6/2009 4:56:07 PM

did you fire all of them?

Quote :

"I can't even comprehend what kind of mindset would lead someone to oppose a meritocracy. "

The mindset of a non-hacker...you know, someone without the merits necessary to make it in a meritocracy. The same mindset as people who like to redistribute wealth. It's a general attitude of having someone else do things for them, rather than doing it for themselves, and it works, because it's easier to find a majority of non-hackers than it is to find a majority of people who have their shit together.

3/6/2009 5:31:18 PM

i cant vouch for construction racket silliness, but i can say it's nice to have someone else speaking up for your safety when you work in one of the most dangerous professions and management is being aloof from serious workplace safety issues. some of the worst things to happen in mines I know of came from just sheer pigheadedness from management (my gf's grandad worked in the pre-union days of the mines of his part of WV and the rate of deaths in that era was ridiculous, and no life is worth increased efficiency).

the basic concept of unionization, petitioning for grievances collectively against an employer, seems like something that, at a basic level, is a part of the basic right of association. I'm normally a frugal guy and a fiscal moderate but I can see how unions have been a great benefit to many, even if mafiosos and lazy bums might drive the image of unions.

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 6:01 PM. Reason : .]

3/6/2009 5:59:42 PM

well now we have OSHA and the tort bar, so unions are largely irrelevant when it comes to workplace safety and all that other shit they used to be necessary for.

3/6/2009 7:48:34 PM

Unions don't do shit to improve safety. The only reason Unions force mandatory "safety meetings" on companies is so they lower productivity and require the company to hire more employers to do the same amount of work.

If you want a safer work environment, then work for a company that fires off the lazy and incompetant instead of making it impossible to fire them.

3/6/2009 9:35:34 PM

PinkandBlack, there is nothing bad about a voluntary union. A union that is not a union, per-se, but a hall in town that workers can meet at after work to discuss events at the business. They can peer-pressure unsafe workers, or petition the company, of if they can organize themselves to minimize the dangers being imposed by their bosses. Or if all else fails, walk off the job until management promises to fix the leaky pipes, with full understanding that management could if they chose fire every last one of you for failing to come to work that day.

That is a good union with no downside. If the union becomes corrupt, most workers will ignore it and start another one. If the company is run by idiots, then union members should find work elsewhere anyway, as it is only a matter of time until that mine goes bankrupt due to its inability to retain workers and inefficient operations.

3/6/2009 11:25:09 PM