http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/03/30/cafferty.schools/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

Quote :

"Call it another piece of evidence that this once great nation of ours is crumbling: Half of us believe our schools deserve a C or a D for the job they do preparing kids for higher education and making a go of it as grownups in the work force"

....

Quote :

"One major bone of contention among parents and educators was Bush's 2001 No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Act, whose focus was squarely on standardized, multiple-choice test scores in Math and English rather than on the quality (and deeper grasp by the student) of the curriculum"

....

Quote :

"Worse, in 2006, the DOE's inspector general found that several top program advisers benefited financially by steering states and school districts to certain tests and texts tied to Reading First materials. The result: Congress slashed Reading First's $1 billion funding in 2007 to $400 million. Our kids paid quite a price for that mess. "

Quote :

"I did an April 2008 "Cafferty File" piece that began, "The education crisis in America's largest cities is assuming frightening proportions. Only about half of all students who attend the main school systems in the 50 largest cities actually graduate from high school." It was a "coin toss," according to the non-profit Editorial Projects in Education (EPE) Research Center. Nationally, the figure for dropouts was nearly one in three. The group's founding chairman, former Secretary of State Colin Powell, called the situation-1.2 million dropouts a year-"not just a crisis, but a catastrophe." Main school districts in Detroit, Indianapolis, Cleveland, and Baltimore all had graduation averages below 40 percent, Detroit's being 25 percent. The real threat to the United States, I said in another piece on "dropout factories," where less than 60 percent graduate (one in 10 schools qualify), is that our kids can't cut it against kids schooled in today's emerging economies. How can they compete globally, I asked, when barely half of the kids in our largest cities even graduate? Aron from Toronto wrote, "You're kidding, right? That ship has sailed. As one who traveled 200,000 miles on business last year, I can tell you for certain that the world places no hope, no weight upon America's youth making even a future ripple in the global waters ... Having visited the top public schools in India and China, I can assure you that the future for America's youth is much bleaker than even the greatest skeptics could imagine." One underlying problem in public education is that the system has morphed into this giant government bureaucracy that sucks up billions and billions of dollars for everything except teaching children reading, writing, and arithmetic (and sciences). We pay school administrators hundreds of thousands of dollars to preside over these failed enterprises that produce their share of functional illiterates. "

3/30/2009 2:52:16 PM

Quote :

"I can tell you for certain that the world places no hope, no weight upon America's youth making even a future ripple in the global waters ... Having visited the top public schools in India and China, I can assure you that the future for America's youth is much bleaker than even the greatest skeptics could imagine.""

3/30/2009 3:07:05 PM

Yay, homeschooling.

3/30/2009 3:10:08 PM

Much like other parts of the economy I think the public school system is broken. The federal gov't should never had gotten directly involved in the public school systems around the country. I have not met one teacher who likes NCLB; granted though that
the issue of "teaching to the test" has existed way before Bush took office. I for one am a supporter of school vouchers. Every working
american pays into the public school system. If I have school age kids though I should be allowed to use my "portion" of taxed money
to send my kids to a private school; espicially if the state of my local public school is sub-par.

The current economic crisis has various causes due to the housing bubble, wall street, irresponsible consumers, and greed that we all know about
but I believe the economic struggles of this country will continue as our general overall level of education continues to lag behind.
The meltdown of wallstreet has shown us that we can not rely on paper pushing and creating "virtual" wealth will no longer cut it. To
create real wealth we will have to continue to innovate and make "goods"/"services" people want to buy. A well educated people is the key
to this. Yet a quick glance at graduation ceremony quickly shows a disparity when over half the students in post undergrad engineering and PAMS classes are of
foreign birth.

3/30/2009 3:16:07 PM

Wait, you mean only learning to speak one language fluently while coasting through public school systems that teach virtually nothing, will mean that our kids are significantly less intelligent and adaptable to the stresses of a global marketplace compared to students aboard who speak several languages fluently, including English, and strive for excellence in all fields of study for the hope of escaping their lower standards of living? What.... Ever!!..!!. My BFF Jill thinks ur lame...

[Edited on March 30, 2009 at 3:17 PM. Reason : -]

3/30/2009 3:16:17 PM

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/03/mixed-results-for-science-in-texas.ars

When I read articles like that, it really does make me clamor for school vouchers. Our country is doomed when in this day and age, these dimwits talk about "fighting experts" when deciding science education policy. It's baffling, in a very sad way.

3/30/2009 3:39:48 PM

Not too long ago, an NYT video op-ed highlighted Sweden's system of school choice, which, based on the video, looks to work well.

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/03/15/opinion/1194838660912/swedens-choice.html

3/30/2009 4:00:51 PM

Just to play devil's advocate here for a second: What long-term studies have been done on the effect that today's education will have on the future's society?

Did the education of the children of 40-50 years ago have a significant impact on America's status as the dominant global power? How about before that? Were America's children more educated than Germany and Japan or Russia?

Generally speaking, we don't need every kid to have the best education. Not everyone is going to Harvard (or even NCSU). America needs fry cooks, janitors, mechanics, maids, etc.

And (though I can speak 2 languages) I question the whole superiority complex over knowing multiple languages. The only reason any of those people speak English is because Britain and then the US established this language as the global language. There are so many languages out there anyway that I suggest that if the goal is being "adaptable to the stresses of a global marketplace" that you will always have to hire someone who has a specific language skill for the job you're doing at the time.

I guess I ask this because I see America as the most powerful, most influential nation in the world, but I don't imagine that the education gap between our children and the rest of the world's children was all that different 30-60 years ago.

Finally as it stands now, my child will be going to public school. There is a lot more to school than the learning. At that age, I feel that learning social skills is probably way more important to gradual success. Plus I'll be requesting copies of the lesson plans and filling in the gaps or undoing any of the idiocy that may come through. That is, unless they teach Intelligent Design. Then it will be home school or move to a different school district.

[Edited on March 30, 2009 at 4:36 PM. Reason : .]

3/30/2009 4:36:09 PM

lol, crisis? Haven't we been in an education crisis for the past 40 years?

I know, let's just through more money at it, that will fix it! That is the mantra of our government right?

3/30/2009 4:49:53 PM

3/30/2009 5:32:00 PM

Quote :

"I guess I ask this because I see America as the most powerful, most influential nation in the world, but I don't imagine that the education gap between our children and the rest of the world's children was all that different 30-60 years ago."

The U.S. had a pretty good education system back then, while the rest of the world was in one of two states: third world hell hole, or bombed to stone age hell hole. As such, compared to the rest of the world, America was a shiny beacon of educated enlightenment. Well, 60 years is a long time; in that time the U.S. education system turned into a unionized bureaucracy with the goal of employing teachers, while the rest of the world built education systems with the goal of competion to be better educators.

3/30/2009 9:39:17 PM

Quote :

"Did the education of the children of 40-50 years ago have a significant impact on America's status as the dominant global power? How about before that? Were America's children more educated than Germany and Japan or Russia? "

40-50 years ago General Motors was the forefront of automotive technology and manufacturing...................

Quote :

" Generally speaking, we don't need every kid to have the best education."

I agree completely i think this is another problem with the current system. The schools teach as if every little angle is going to college when they aren't teaching the test of course. Yet wonder why drop out and don't try. We have some magnet programs but we need a tiered system like they have in europe. Some students take the academic college prep classes others take vocational in order to learn a skill to prepare for work after high school.

Anyone who decided to do either is useless and deserves to rot on the street.

Quote :

"I know, let's just through more money at it, that will fix it! "

you Damn fucking right. At least for high education. We need to be providing more incentive to high achieving US undergrads to stick around into the master's and PhD programs. Why should I continue on in a PhD program when i can make big bucks working for XYZ corp. Even if i do continue grants/fellowships are competitive and there is a good chance i'll be spending much of my time working to make $ when not studying. To make matters worse I have to compete against a grad population of >50% foreign many of whom are paid by their perspective governments to study here. So while i'm waiting table they are slamming the books since they receive funding from back home.

Even for secondary education over the past 8 years we have no problems writing 8 billions dollar contracts for Halliburton but leave our public schools scrapping for barebones. True though that the system has much room for trimming the bureaucracy and crap; but this can be done without taking away money from the class room. Just imagine Ytsejam every dollar used by tax n spend liberals to improve our education system is potentially $2 you may not have to spend on a welfare mom 20 yrs down the line.



[Edited on March 30, 2009 at 10:02 PM. Reason : l]

3/30/2009 9:46:17 PM

There are some very long posts in this thread, and I am drunk. I may read them later. You may refrain from reading my post now. Whatever. I shall post my brief thoughts on the subject, from the point of view of a substitute teacher, who both witnesses the flaws in public education and is generally separate from said system most of the time.

There are key subcultures -- and, before HUR starts, these are not limited to the offspring of people named Shaneequa -- that do not value education, and who view active participation in the process as a sign of betrayal and weakness. I maintain, from my admittedly limited experience, that this is one of our chief problems.

On more than one occasion, I would look over kids work -- not because I had to as a substitute, but because I was bored or curious. And on more than one of those occasions, I found that far and way the best work came from kids who went out of their way to avoid doing well. These were people who, despire missing many classes or refusing to turn in much work, still ultimatley performed better than most if not all of their classmates. And it doesn't take a genius to figure out why. Kids who excell at school (at least in certain environments) are targets for all sorts of abuse.

Teaching to the test may not be the most efficient way to do things, but it's not our biggest problem. Federal involvement in education -- which I'm opposed to -- is not, either. Smashing the culture of proud ignorance and defiance is what needs to be done. The problem is, it can't be done without enormous overhauls in our operations.

3/30/2009 9:58:08 PM

Quote :

"Smashing the culture of proud ignorance and defiance is what needs to be done"

yeah its pretty sad such culture exists...

I agree with the Federal thing to; public schools are should be left to the local community and ultimately the state. Federal gov't should have no role but to supplement income, ensure diverse neighborhoods are being treated fairly, using money to research educational topics, and help guide curriculum to prevent outliers communities from failing the students (for example Alabama teaching the evil union invading teh south, Brunswick county trying to ban evolution, or some other crazy shit)

3/30/2009 10:08:44 PM

Depressingly, I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with your post.

Obviously enough, the federal government needed to intervene in issues of segregation. Just as, now, they should intervene to force the teaching of accurate science and history (though, if other school systems want to teach "alternatives" alongside those in a remotely fair manner, I can live with that, too)

I don't mind feds distributing some educational funds, with certain caveats (like those I mentioned above), though I do think such things should be reduced/redistributed to states.

For once, though, we seem to be in agreement.

3/30/2009 10:15:08 PM

I question the number of those "proud and defiant" students who are doing work that is "far and away" the best in the class. Most of those kids really can't do basic work let alone stuff that is "far and away" the best...that's why it's so sad.

I mean, if they were doing work that is far and away the best, then that would be a genius problem--kids who are tremendously smart and talented who don't want to stand out or who don't "buy in." I don't think this is the case with most failing students.

About this culture of "proud ignorance and defiance," I've seen some kids who were neglected and socially promoted so much that, by the time they reached the seventh grade, they were completely over their heads. Not being able to read as well as their peers and having people laugh when they tried to answer a simple addition problem...that's embarrassing...and it's at that point that the "proud ignorance and defiance" kicks in as a defense mechanism. And it's fucked up they got ignored and neglected so bad by teachers (and maybe parents) when they were younger.

3/30/2009 10:56:25 PM

Quote :

"About this culture of "proud ignorance and defiance," I've seen some kids who were neglected and socially promoted so much that, by the time they reached the seventh grade, they were completely over their heads. Not being able to read as well as their peers and having people laugh when they tried to answer a simple addition problem...that's embarrassing...and it's at that point that the "proud ignorance and defiance" kicks in as a defense mechanism. And it's fucked up they got ignored and neglected so bad by teachers (and maybe parents) when they were younger. "

Leave it to fucking Bridget to find some way to alleviate self-responsibility out of the underachieving students who drop out and portray "proud ignorance" on anybody but themselves (or the parents for younger students).

If a student is so immature/stupid to make bad grades in high school, when he has the ability to make good grades, just to be "cool" or fit in better than he doesn't deserve to attend a good college. I will be happy to give him my order when I go out to eat at Outback or hire him to bring his crew of illegals to do my landscaping.

[Edited on March 30, 2009 at 11:08 PM. Reason : L]

3/30/2009 11:05:47 PM

^Leave it to me to what?

GrumpyGOP was the one who was trying to paint them as secretly talented people who are capable of far and away the best work but go out of their way to fail.

"If you only applied yourself, you could be the best!" does not apply to middle schoolers who can't read or solve math problems beyond a third grade level.

It's just sad.

3/30/2009 11:16:27 PM

Quote :

"If a student is so immature/stupid to make bad grades in high school, when he has the ability to make good grades, just to be "cool" or fit in better than he doesn't deserve to attend a good college. "

LOL

You either have already forgotten what it was like to be a "kid" or you were never in touch with the experience of the majority of high school youth. You can't dismiss these kids so easily.

3/30/2009 11:38:06 PM

Quote :

"I don't think this is the case with most failing students."

You're right -- it isn't.

But the fact is, those students who do well often have the same teachers as those who don't. The same materials are being thrown at both groups. And the lower-performing kids can, with proper motivation, do at least a little better. They're in the culture of ignorance, too.

Raise up the smart kids, show that it's OK to do well, and many of the rest will follow. Not all -- I think I was quite clear on saying that this culture was a big problem, not the only problem. There are still other areas where we need major improvement. But one of these will do more good than others.

3/30/2009 11:43:03 PM

Quote :

"But the fact is, those students who do well often have the same teachers as those who don't. The same materials are being thrown at both groups. And the lower-performing kids can, with proper motivation, do at least a little better. They're in the culture of ignorance, too."

My friend is an english teacher; he can attest to the fact that among his "less privileged" blacks any that attempts to make a contribution to the class discussion or gets a good essay grade is teased by his peers for trying to "be white".

This is unfortunate but no amount of Bridget coddling will prevent this. Sink or swim. Although, many of these kids would be better off on a "vocational" tract at this level. Where they could learn a skill beyond basketball, drug dealing, or rapping (preferred subjects chosen to write about by these students when my friend ask them to write about a career they are interested in); since a majority have no need for the college prep environment most schools default to in modern day.

My mom is a teacher also, so this is not a topic I am a stranger about.

3/31/2009 12:06:59 AM

Quote :

"Federal gov't should have no role but to supplement income"

They need to stop or SIGNIFICANTLY reduce their circumvention of the 10th Amendment by collecting money in taxes only to return it to states, after burning a little of it due to the inefficiency of being a middle-man.

3/31/2009 12:52:52 AM

Actually, they aren't returning it to the state -- they are giving it to other, poorer states.

3/31/2009 4:38:18 AM

Watch this video, it will help to describe what I mean by the stresses of a global marketplace and the challenge Americans will face very soon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL9Wu2kWwSY

3/31/2009 7:27:04 AM

Quote :

"They need to stop or SIGNIFICANTLY reduce their circumvention of the 10th Amendment by collecting money in taxes only to return it to states, after burning a little of it due to the inefficiency of being a middle-man."

ya i meant it more as ^^. California obviously is going to have an easier time creating a tier 1 public school system than say Wyoming or Arkansas.

3/31/2009 7:44:40 AM

Stimwalt,

I want my five minutes back from watching that garbage of a video. Oh god the Indians and Chinese are having more babies than us!

3/31/2009 10:46:58 AM

Quote :

"Chinese are having more "

No they are not.....

3/31/2009 10:50:26 AM

Well, in absolute terms, yes, the Chinese are having more children than we are. 500 million couples having one child each will produce more children than 150 million couples having three children each.

3/31/2009 10:57:53 AM

According to that video they are, and OH THE HORROR the Internet is expanding at an alarming rate.

3/31/2009 10:58:57 AM

That video contains factual data. Glossing over it all and commenting on only one statistic seems to suggest that you are being willfully ignorant of the details presented. I understand this may be a personal issue for you, but ignoring and/or rejecting what the video is conveying overall is simply a mistake. To each his own.

3/31/2009 11:49:44 AM

Then sum it up for me, Stimwalt. All I saw were statistics that were uninteresting and unrelated. Maybe it's my substandard American education, but I'm not seeing how any of it is relevant to the current discussion.

3/31/2009 11:54:38 AM

It should be a fairly easy task to see the disturbing parellels of a failing American public education system alongside the exponential expansion of the globalization of the world. If our public education systems do not align with progressive global trends, we will fall behind as the beacon of enlightenment in the world.

3/31/2009 12:04:54 PM

Quote :

"I agree completely i think this is another problem with the current system. The schools teach as if every little angle is going to college when they aren't teaching the test of course. Yet wonder why drop out and don't try. We have some magnet programs but we need a tiered system like they have in europe. Some students take the academic college prep classes others take vocational in order to learn a skill to prepare for work after high school. Anyone who decided to do either is useless and deserves to rot on the street."

I don't usually go for anecdotal evidence or ad hominems, but if posts like this are representative of someone who was admitted for post-secondary education at a fine public university such as NCSU, then our educational system is indeed in dire straits.

3/31/2009 12:30:04 PM

sorry bud; half of my posts occur during the day and are usually quick type-ups. I got other stuff to do than proof read checking grammar, spelling, and good sentence structure for everything I say.

3/31/2009 12:52:46 PM

Are there any legitimate reasons to oppose private school vouchers?
We should be increasing the use of vouchers as much as possible every year until the public school system is shut down.

3/31/2009 12:53:30 PM

What are your arguments in favor of vouchers?

Or is this going to be another one of those threads where you think that your position is so self-evidently correct that you don't need to deign to explain yourself to us mere mortals?

3/31/2009 1:44:28 PM

Quote :

"We should be increasing the use of vouchers as much as possible every year until the public school system is shut down."

I do not really agree with this.

Public schools still have an advantage of economies of scale. Even beyond this I do not think education is something you LoneSnark or EarthDogg can quickly break down and be like "ZOMG Free enterprise and capitalism would make all private schools perfectly competitive and wonderful if public scools were gone.

If parents have the means though to pay for private education for the children they should be allocated their tax money back via voucher to fund this. This amount though would be less than the per $/student budget public schools currently receive. As I, parents with children already out of school, or whoever else that does not have children 5-18 should not be subsidizing you to send Lil Johnny to Tryon Evangelist Academy or whatever.

Nonetheless this would put pressure on public schools to shape up. Also, it would allow parents to more easily attain alternatives if the public schools close to them suck. As a side effect this may actually increase local tax revenues and aid the budgets of hurting public schools as property values may increase in some areas where parents would otherwise live somewhere else that has a better local school.

3/31/2009 1:56:31 PM

You can't really make a general conclusion that vouchers are good or bad based on the data that is out there. In some places, it has produced results. In some places, it has not. One big problem is that the private schools that pop up to get this voucher money are just as incompetent in their management and recruitment as the government. If an area tries out a voucher program, finds that it works, then good for them.

Education reform debates tend to devolve into pointless bickering about policies that are neither here nor there. Instead of policies, the federal government should be figuring out ways to get talented managers and staff into schools and giving them the leeway to use their talent. The problem is that the different level of governments know that they are not recruiting high-level talent, so they feel that strict control is the way to make up for this deficit.

However, it's sysiphian to pile on processes, tests, standardization, and micromanaging to make up for the known talent problem. Rather, the government should address the talent problem directly. If you have smart people running your schools and classrooms, they will figure out what works. This is how any successful organization works. Eduction is no different.

Another good idea would be to not require an extreme level of altruism from applicants.

[Edited on March 31, 2009 at 9:04 PM. Reason : .]

3/31/2009 9:00:25 PM

Rarely is the question asked, "Is our children learning?"

3/31/2009 9:32:46 PM

Quote :

"As I, parents with children already out of school, or whoever else that does not have children 5-18 should not be subsidizing you to send Lil Johnny to Tryon Evangelist Academy or whatever."

And you would rather send far more of your money so Lil Johnny can attend Chester A Arthur High School than let him attend Tryon Evangelist Academy for fewer tax dollars?

3/31/2009 11:52:30 PM

Quote :

"ensure diverse neighborhoods are being treated fairly"

read: watch out for the darkies.

4/1/2009 8:22:26 AM

Quote :

"And it's fucked up they got ignored and neglected so bad by teachers (and maybe parents) when they were younger."

No, they were most definitely neglected by their parents. Whether it was willful or unintentional neglect depends on the child, but a parent should be paying attention to what their child is and isn't learning in school. A parent shouldn't just throw their kid into the system and say, "Well, I guess I'll see what comes out in 12 years."

Quote :

"Having visited the top public schools in India and China"

Yeah, let's take the top schools in one country and compare them to the bottom schools in another. This means a lot Having worked in schools overseas I can tell you that all countries have horribly bad schools and top notch schools. You have to compare like to like.

Where America goes wrong is in our abandonment of vocational high schools. Not everyone goes to college and some kids will become the ditch diggers of society. Which would you rather have them in? A college prep school when they will never go to college, so they eventually give up completely and quite possibly become a scumbag of society? Or a vocational school where they can learn to become a car mechanic or electrician? Some people will always be a failure regardless of where you put them, but it's pretty screwy how most school systems have decided if you're not going to college you don't deserve to learn any applicable job skill at all.

[Edited on April 1, 2009 at 9:41 AM. Reason : skill]

4/1/2009 9:40:04 AM

^ Well, some people do want to go to college. As such, even if the argument in favor of competition is not persuasive to you, allowing choice certainly should be. Afterall, if you kid wants to go to college, send them to the college prep school. If your kid wants to attend a vocational school, send them to one.

You don't need vouchers to have choice. Simply permitting charter schools and allowing the money to follow the students would create choice and competition.

4/1/2009 4:00:27 PM

I'm sick and barely comprehending this thread, or else I'd have a real response. Until then, I'll just say that if you look at how schools are funded in places like Memphis, where I used to teach, you can see pretty clearly that it makes little to no sense.

4/1/2009 6:38:51 PM

^ I'm going to agree with you and concur that funding public primary education makes no sense whatsoever.

The reason vouchers will never become universally available is simple. Our government cares more about its own self-promotion than any success of the children. Moreover, if you just let the $$ go where the talent resides, or the best system exists etc... (whatever you want to believe is the magic bullet for teaching the kids) then you have to ask yourself how will a particular politician or party promulgate its propaganda to the public?

If control is not direct, if education is just judged on the merits rather than education plus "socialization" and "diversity training" etc... then how will the government spread its new vision to the children? How will government redefine "right" and "wrong" to be centered around the state instead of the individual?

4/1/2009 8:50:52 PM

^^^ Where did I say anything about vouchers or that there shouldn't be college preparatory courses?

4/1/2009 9:17:28 PM

^ You did not, I did. One glaring problem with public schools is that they are trying to be all things to all people and burdenning themselves with devastating diseconomies of scale.

4/1/2009 9:42:44 PM

Quote :

"I'm going to agree with you and concur that funding public primary education makes no sense whatsoever. The reason vouchers will never become universally available is simple. Our government cares more about its own self-promotion than any success of the children. Moreover, if you just let the $$ go where the talent resides, or the best system exists etc... (whatever you want to believe is the magic bullet for teaching the kids) then you have to ask yourself how will a particular politician or party promulgate its propaganda to the public? If control is not direct, if education is just judged on the merits rather than education plus "socialization" and "diversity training" etc... then how will the government spread its new vision to the children? How will government redefine "right" and "wrong" to be centered around the state instead of the individual?"

4/2/2009 2:59:02 AM

Everyone talks about what should be done and what's going wrong now, but really what is the end goal? Every classroom in America has a PhD teacher? The schools I went to were hicksville schools and my fourth grade teacher tried to convince the class that the sun revolved around the earth.

Holy shit, I still managed to graduate college, land a career, marry a smart and attractive woman, etc. How did I manage to do that when I attended an 8th grade science class where the teacher couldn't tell us the difference between a test tube and a beaker?

I give credit to my dad on this one. He taught me how to read, add, subtract, multiply, and divide before I started kindergarten. And he always fostered my curiosity about animals, space and history.

I'm not denying that our schools could probably use some improvement, but I strongly believe that parents are the main motivation for children to fail or succeed. My daughter will be going to public school to learn crucial social skills and independence. I will be actively involved in her teaching and will correct/fill in the gaps as much as I see fit.

4/2/2009 9:26:31 AM

[Edited on April 2, 2009 at 10:42 AM. Reason : aa]

4/2/2009 10:35:18 AM