batter hits ball - batter would have been out at first but there was an error and the first baseman fumbles the ball - batters makes it to first base successfully

per http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp
10.05 B-01

clearly it shouldn't be a base hit - but is the score then marked as a valid at bat and an out so the batter's batting percentage goes down?

what's the official rule on this?

i found the following website and it seems to mark it as an out and thus the batting percentage would go down - is this true?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_is_a_batters_batting_average_figured

4/22/2009 3:42:39 PM

Reached on error, at-bat counts

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 3:46 PM. Reason : ]

4/22/2009 3:44:28 PM

it is an at bat, he would be 0-1

4/22/2009 3:46:33 PM

backed up by any reputable link?

4/22/2009 3:48:57 PM

My brain

Or just Google "reached on error"

4/22/2009 3:49:34 PM

^^^, ^^^^

also, a fielder's choice is an at bat and would be 0-1

^^, common knowledge

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 3:50 PM. Reason : ]

4/22/2009 3:49:46 PM

Mainly backed up by watching baseball and seeing that everytime this situation occurs it counts as an at bat and an out.

4/22/2009 3:49:52 PM

I don't have a reputable link, but from years of playing baseball and following the sport, if an error occurs on a players at bat then the batter is given an official at bat and no hit, meaning a drop in batting average.

Kind of sucks, but it's how I have seen it through the years.

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 3:51 PM. Reason : yeh what everyone else said...]

Wikipedia:

Quote :

"An error does not count as a hit unless, in the scorer's judgment, the batter would have reached first base safely but one or more of the additional base(s) reached was the result of the fielder's mistake"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_(baseball)

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 3:52 PM. Reason : wiki]

4/22/2009 3:50:18 PM

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 3:53 PM. Reason : whoops]

4/22/2009 3:52:24 PM

doh ok - i know nothing about softball - ruined my perfect 1.000 batting this past game and i was trying to argue it

4/22/2009 3:53:05 PM

it is definitely one of the rules of baseball that I take issue to, but I understand why it is ruled how it is.

4/22/2009 3:56:01 PM

The only thing to take issue with is the scorer's discretion. If it was an error and the batter would have clearly been out, there's no reason to count it as a hit and there's no reason not to count the AB.

The batter didn't reach base by getting a hit, why should his average go up?

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 3:58 PM. Reason : ]

4/22/2009 3:57:44 PM

That's the great thing about baseball, you only get things when you earn them. It works the other way too though, baseball is fair and doesn't punish you for doing good things for the team (example: sac fly).

4/22/2009 4:06:58 PM

^ a sac fly does not hurt or help your era. 0-0

:: or wait, now i'm second guessing myself

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 4:09 PM. Reason : ]

CRAP I MEANT BATTING AVERAGE

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 4:33 PM. Reason : ]

4/22/2009 4:09:13 PM

i think its funny that Ernie cites his brain as the reputable source when he first typed that reaching on an error doesnt count as an at bat then edited it once he realized he was wrong

4/22/2009 4:10:51 PM

^^A sac fly will hurt the pitchers' era and ^^^'s whole point was that you're rewarded with no PA since you sacrificed for the team.

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM. Reason : ^^]

4/22/2009 4:10:54 PM

Quote :

"a sac fly does not hurt or help your era"

Runs scored on sac flies or bunts count as earned.

Quote :

"you're rewarded with no PA since you sacrificed for the team"

No, the PA counts, the AB doesn't.

Quote :

"then edited it once he realized he was wrong"

Nope

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 4:14 PM. Reason : ]

4/22/2009 4:12:21 PM

unless the runner who scored reached on an error or was inherited from the previous pitcher

4/22/2009 4:14:21 PM

^^sorry, yeah, I meant AB.

4/22/2009 4:23:54 PM

whole lot of stupid in this thread

4/22/2009 4:27:10 PM

Fwiw, baseball has some crazy situations...

IE.. Runner on second, batter shows bunt, ball is pitched, SS and 2B run in towards pitcher, they're inside the baseline.

Batter does not bunt, instead swings and hits a liner towards second. Runner stays on the bag and it hits him square, on the line. Is he out?

Happened at a HS game I played and I honestly can't remember, but I know it took 10 minutes to figure out.

4/22/2009 5:34:22 PM

Safe- a batted ball that hits a runner while he is standing on the bag is still in play and the runner is safe, and the batter-runner is liable to be put out.

4/22/2009 5:38:13 PM

I'll let others debate that

4/22/2009 5:44:40 PM

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the runner is safe if he's on the bag and the ball is in play.

Let me convene with the other umpires for twenty minutes and we'll get back to you.

4/22/2009 5:49:52 PM

what do you mean by this

Quote :

"on the line"

assuming the runner on second did not influence the ball, he is safe and can move towards third, batter-runner is still alive to be put out

4/22/2009 5:55:08 PM

^ I meant it hit him on the line. IIRC, he was eventually called safe but not because he was on the bag. The ball was live as the SS and 2B could have made a play on the ball before it hit him, technically. If he was on the bag and the infielders were behind him, I do believe he'd be out...

To further complicate matters, the runner thought he was out and turned to run towards the dugout (on the first base side). The batter advanced all the way to third and the clusterfuck ensued. I honestly can't remember how it played out..

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 6:05 PM. Reason : k]

4/22/2009 6:03:58 PM

Quote :

"the runner thought he was out and turned to run towards the dugout"

He'd be out for leaving the basepath

Always assume you're safe until the ump says otherwise

4/22/2009 6:09:11 PM

^^ no matter where the fielders are he would be safe, if he's touching the base

and to the OP, your softball league may not follow MLB rules exactly so that's not a great place to look. for that example yes it's 0-1, but i wouldn't count on all MLB rules to be your deciding factor.

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 6:22 PM. Reason : if hes on base]

4/22/2009 6:22:13 PM

I ♥ sabrmetrics. Incidentally, I don't really care for baseball.

4/22/2009 6:23:38 PM

^^I think it does matter where the fielders are, per 7.08 (f)

Quote :

"7.08 Any runner is out when- (f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance."

(you edited your post so that doesn't make much sense now)

And the the batter is out, the runner is safe if he's touching the base

Quote :

"If a runner is touching his base when touched by an Infield Fly, he is not out, although the batter is out; If two runners are touched by the same fair ball, only the first one is out because the ball is instantly dead. If runner is touched by an Infield Fly when he is not touching his base, both runner and batter are out."

Quote :

"I ♥ sabrmetrics"

Enough to spell it correctly?

And batting average isn't exactly sabermetrics.

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 6:29 PM. Reason : edit]

4/22/2009 6:25:12 PM

that's incorrect.


nah jk, i dunno why you would be on the base to get hit with the ball anyways, unless you're an idiot or playing like little league. i would definitely argue that for a long time if they called somebody out though.

4/22/2009 6:29:05 PM

I guess if it were a line drive and the runner thought it would be fielded so he tagged up. But with the fake bunt drawing in the corners and causing the 2B/SS to cover (as described above), it sounds like the hit and run would have been on. The runner was probably a retard.

[Edited on April 22, 2009 at 6:32 PM. Reason : ]

4/22/2009 6:32:03 PM