Good Evening All,

I hope you're all doing very well. My husband and I are in need of professional advice relating to the current economic situation, and we thought that you guys might have a good perspective.

Situation: Matt is graduating in August with a MS in (Environmental) Engineering. His program is analogous to the work that Greg Jennings does at State. He had a non-engineering undergrad degree, so he's going to be starting from scratch. He'll take his FE in October.

The problem: We'd like to move back to the Triangle for my continued education at UNC. However, we're finding the job market for entry level engineers with an environmental/civil tilt are few and far between.

Question: Would it be detrimental to Matt's engineering career if he took his first year out of the program to teach secondary education or any other non-engineering job? It would be so that we could afford to be back in the area, and he would still take the FE in October and (hopefully) get an internship in the meantime. We thought perhaps an internship would be a good way to get professional experience and get his foot in the door at firms. At the end of his first year contract, he would continue looking for an engineering position while I finished my program.

Would this look poorly on his resume down the line?

4/22/2009 7:33:36 PM

No, given the current economic situation I highly doubt any company will look down upon this.

4/22/2009 7:48:29 PM

Thank you, sir. We appreciate it.

I think he's also going to talk to a career counselor about it too. I just don't want to mess him up before he gets started.

4/22/2009 7:51:56 PM

Well I am a hiring manager for a major environmental engineering company and we screen applicants based on such criteria as this.

It is looked upon as though you are noncomittal and therefore would be neither dependable nor effective in a project.

4/22/2009 7:56:17 PM

Thanks, BigHitSunday. We appreciate hearing the other side of the table as well. What are your suggestions?

4/22/2009 7:58:16 PM

I seriously doubt that BigHitSunday is in that position.

Anyway, I wouldn't see any issue with getting an internship after taking a year to teach. Internships are often specifically used to get the same help in the company at a lower pay, like using undergrads or grads as opposed to hiring a full time, fully credentialed engineer. If the intern works out then the company would pursue that person and try to get them on full time. If not, then they got some work at a lower price. As I've seen it, its pretty win-win.

That said, your husband would be applying for an internship with a completed MS and valid FE exam and competing against people still in progress of their graduate degrees or lower. I wouldn't think that year would have much of an effect. If it was for a fulltime it could have a little more weight in the matter.

4/22/2009 8:09:02 PM

Thanks, sir. We appreciate your taking time to respond.

We appreciate all responses from folks who know a little something about this. We're actively trying to make decisions right now about our future. We're looking for as much info as we can before we make the determination to move.

Thanks all!

4/22/2009 8:16:34 PM

Mmm, I've found that by explaining that all the work I've had were internships that lasted 6 months or less, this hasn't really been a problem for most folks. If you have something on your resume that you know will pop out as a red flag, but could be caused by perfectly understandable circumstances, you can explain the reason for that red flag in your cover letter.

The other option, of course, is to speak directly to somebody at the company you're interested in working for if they have a position you're qualified for and you're worried that they're going to assume you're noncommittal, like BHS said.

That said, having work experience on your resume that is relevant to your field will look better than work experience that is not relevant to your field. Having some experience is better than having no experience. Having long, continuous periods of employment is better in the eyes of most recruiters (to quote one I was checking in with today, "You don’t want a resume that show a lot of job hopping." in regards to your professional post-college career), but internships have been looked at as "gold stars" by my past employers. Basically, having had all these internships, I appear to be more qualified for entry level positions than other students who have not had internships. Working at an internship after you graduate and not landing a job with that company is not a bad thing. If the employer is interested in you, again, you explain that the company had to rotate out employees for the internship and that they couldn't offer you a permanent position at the time due to economic conditions/corporate restructuring.

Now, as for employment. I knew that Applied Research Associates always had these job postings for folks with master's degrees. Something I don't have. Here's some links:

https://ara.tms.hrdepartment.com/cgi-bin/a/highlightjob.cgi?jobid=1570&lcid=en-US
https://ara.tms.hrdepartment.com/cgi-bin/a/highlightjob.cgi?jobid=1492&lcid=en-US

4/22/2009 8:17:54 PM

Thank you very much for that.

4/22/2009 9:26:02 PM

I was in an allied field to Env. Eng and spent a ton of time teaching clients, engineers and regulators the ins and outs of what we were trying to do. so many folks cant convey what they need to convey to folks with varying backgrounds. some teaching experience would be a plus in my book. that, coupled with the complete dive the engineering and consulting world took would put me in the mood to hide out for a while.

4/22/2009 9:31:40 PM

obviously a year of related experience would be preferable, but it's better for you and your resume to be working at any job than to spend a year looking for one in your field--assuming you have good recommendations from your employer of course

4/22/2009 10:29:43 PM

Adrienne has no sense of internet style.

4/22/2009 10:33:41 PM

^I know right! She is probably the most courteous and polite person I've ever encountered online.

4/23/2009 11:41:08 AM

Well, cheesy pete, guys, I'm polite because I'm asking for serious commentary. It doesn't feel very good to know that in approximately 3.5 months we're going to be basically stuck in one heck of a situation. The past 2 years have not been easy by any means, but at least we've both had an income. Once August comes, we're down to mine. Working for the university, I don't exactly make bank.

It's hard to know exactly what the next smart move is because there just isn't a clean cut answer.
Thanks for taking the time to read/reply.

4/23/2009 6:49:21 PM

I'm currently working as an intern at a company in RTP, even though I graduated with my B.S. in Engineering already. Yeah, it's a pay cut, but I couldn't find a job for about seven months after graduating (I had interviews, etc, nothing panned out). This job is great, though, and it's giving me a chance to gain more experience in my field. Plus the people seem to like me enough to keep me on after my internship (with benefits, in a regular full-time position). There's nothing wrong with it.

also, ignore BigHitSunday

4/23/2009 7:07:58 PM

Quote :

"Good Evening All, I hope you're all doing very well."

It's a tarp, Nigerians have invaded TWW.

4/23/2009 7:36:30 PM

Ha! Yeah, I probably went too formal with that. I'm not a Nigerian....born and raised in Fayetteville, transplanted to Chapel Hill, and currently at Virginia Tech. I look forward to moving back down to the Triangle if we can figure it out.

4/23/2009 7:52:18 PM

lol, good times, i used to go up there once in a while when i stilll had friends there, there is a picture floating around somewhere on here of me passed out in the hallway of pritchard on the way back from a german club party


that campus is not drunk friendly, every building looks identical and there are too many stairs/hills

4/23/2009 9:40:56 PM

^^^ lol

4/23/2009 9:45:08 PM

Compared to the structural openings I've seen, there are tons of environmental positions opening. If he needs to take something else to get by it probably won't be a big deal, but if he hangs in there & seriously commits to looking for a job in his field I bet he will find one.

4/24/2009 12:24:01 AM

4/24/2009 12:26:33 AM

How do you get an internship if you have already completed a BS and every internship application lists "student status" as a requirement?

4/24/2009 12:31:01 AM

a few things, but my ultimate answer is No, it is not a problem.

partly out of curiousity, and partly out of "have you really given this the thought and respect it deserves"; what makes you think he'll be able to get a job as a middle or high school teacher? And in what curriculum (i'm assuming math, science, or tech. ed.)?

The state budget is in bad shape right now. I believe they just sent out a memo informing schools to only hire essential teachers actually. TA in elem. schools are being laid off. I mean, things are not great right now. In the state of N.C. (and every state as far as i know) you have to have a license to teach. He may be able to get a lateral entry license, but that requires the person to take classes at an accredited college while they're teaching. But with unemployment up, and education students graduating... he's going to have compitition from folks with degrees in secondary education who won't be lateral entry.

It's not like, "oh if you have a degree, you can teach!" And teaching is a lot of work. Not to say he couldn't handle it, but it's demanding. Especially if he's got no previous experience. Does he really want to take that on while looking for another job? His work days will be longer than the school days. I'm sure he's used to that to some extent, but is that what the two of you really want to take on/continue? Teaching has one of the lowest retention rates for the first few yrs of any profession. And that not just b/c of the money. Was he a TA as a grad student? That would cover some of the experience part and would probably be a leg up in getting a position as well when competing with other lateral entry candidates.

Also, it's about to be summer. There are some year round schools here, but not that many. Schools on a more traditional schedule probably won't look to hire anyone, assuming they do, until closer to the fall.


That being said; I can't comment on the engineering field specifically, but most employeers understand that life comes up. Sometimes your wife goes back to school in a different town/area and when you moved you couldn't find a job right away in your field but had to pay your bills. As stated, related experience is always better. But i think most potential employers would understand the situation just fine. And in my opinion, he would look better with a yr of non Enviro Eng. experience and his circumstances, than someone with a yr of Enviro. Eng. experience just changing jobs. Seeking a job in the industry you intended to work in, after doing what you had to do to pay the bills, seems a lot better to me than changing jobs within the same industry for any other reason. Well, other than gross mistreatment by an employer.

His situation also shows a good sense of responisbiltiy. He's got a wife and the two of you have obligations. You gotta do what you gotta do, most adults respect and often times admire that. And ultimately, if there are no jobs in the field there are no jobs (people know what the market is like, epsecially those in their repsective industry). After 5yrs... nobody is going to give a shit about what he did to make ends meet for 6-12mos between graduating and getting his first eng. job.


You're moving back here from VA? You know NC is the 4th highest state in unemployment right now? It's gone from 7-10.8% from OCT '08 to MAR '09 (unemployment rate is 6.8 in VA, @ 8% in the Blacksburg area). Good news is that it only went up .1% in march compared to the 1+% it was rising each month for a while. And the Raleigh-Cary area is/has been a lower than the state so far (8.8% as of Feb.), although the rate of change has been about the same.

[Edited on April 24, 2009 at 12:39 AM. Reason : /]

4/24/2009 12:36:15 AM

On the flip side, I have seen firsthand, situations in where someone's gap in engineering experience (1-2yrs) was commented on and held against them.

4/24/2009 12:47:39 AM

Quote :

"Well, cheesy pete, guys"

I'm going to start saying this all the time.

4/24/2009 1:18:54 AM

^^ Yeah, you'd be best off to limit non-engineering experience to less than a year. I mean, get a junk job that pays by the hour and spend two hours every night searching for and applying to any job in the area that you could use your degree for.

I also highly recommend that he go through any contacts he has at any relevant companies, even if they're from out of state, and ask if they have connections with any companies in the Raleigh/Durham area that he could contact about employment.

Human resources departments are a scourge upon humanity, and they are going to be the main obstacle to his employment unless he already has contacts with HR folks in that company.

4/24/2009 2:13:06 AM

To respond to duro's comments...

His undergraduate experience was in geology and geography with a good smattering of biology, chemistry, and physics. My folks just retired from the teaching scene, so I think we're pretty well prepared for what that would mean. It certainly isn't a first choice because of the time commitment associated with it. We're both also aware of the cuts currently going on in the NC educational system. It isn't a guaranteed job, and we never expected it to be. It's just one of the many brainstorms we've had on topic.

We're also extremely aware of the employment rate right now. The more we look for jobs, the more aware we are. The reality of it is that jobs are a hot commodity just about everywhere now. As a country, we're in bad shape. Moving back to the area is important for us because we'd like to be closer to family when we start having kids. Also, I've selected an educational program that I would like to attend down there. If he can't find a job, then we just have to reprioritize what we're looking for and where we're looking for it.

Thanks for the continuation of the thread. Now I'm off to work.

4/24/2009 7:15:33 AM

Quote :

"How do you get an internship if you have already completed a BS and every internship application lists "student status" as a requirement?"

Not all of them do.

4/24/2009 7:44:42 AM