This should probably go in study hall, but I was wondering...

Do you guys consider having a solutions manual as cheating? Assuming nothing stupid like direct plagiarism and copying of solutions ... merely using them to make sure one is doing the homework correctly, or to study.

Without giving any names, there has recently been an ... we'll call it an "issue" ... with a certain teacher/department at NC State. I was just wondering what you guys thought generally before I gave any details.

Thanks.

4/26/2009 8:41:35 PM

No.

In no way could this be construed as cheating unless you are completely retarded.

4/26/2009 8:46:47 PM

From the teacher's perspective, I don't believe that simply owning the solutions manual is considered cheating. There is even some merit to having a solutions manual for studying and checking your work before you've gone too far on the wrong track.

BUT if you are given a grade on the correctness of your homework or a take home exam that is taken directly from the material covered in the solutions manual, the ownership of the solutions manual is suspect.

4/26/2009 8:59:09 PM

No, thats what they are there for. As long as you are using it to "check" your work, instead of copying the answers and getting credit for them. When teachers pick textbooks, they know whether or not a solutions manual for it exists.

4/26/2009 8:59:48 PM

the smart textbook author tweaks the solutions manual so that the answers don't always align with the text. by that, i mean the problems are always the same as the text, but the numbers used are occasionally different.

if the student's dumb enough to copy blindly, he gets the problem wrong.

4/26/2009 9:05:24 PM

^ I've never heard of that but I guess it's possible.

Quote :

"When teachers pick textbooks, they know whether or not a solutions manual for it exists."

To me, this is the crux of the argument that having and using a solutions manual isn't cheating unless specifically prohibited by an instructor. As an instructor, if you assign graded work from a source with a published set of solutions, you do so with the knowledge that your students have the potential to access those solutions. The same logic applies to professors who reuse test materials. They should be cognizant of the fact that their students could have copies of their old tests. Thus, the burden is on the instructor to either accept the fact that students might have access to answers, develop new material that the students won't have the answers for, or set class policy that limits where the students are and are not allowed to turn to for aid on graded assignments.

4/26/2009 9:26:20 PM

Depends on the teacher, but it might be in the code that solution manuals are cheating if you use it to get the solution for a homework problem.

That's what my teacher's stance on it was. She knew that there were solution manuals out for the book, and if anyone used one then it would be reported.

4/26/2009 9:28:32 PM

Quote :

"When teachers pick textbooks, they know whether or not a solutions manual for it exists"

except in this case you cant purchase the solution manual from a bookstore or from a legitimate site. The solution manual this guy is talking about is in a word document.



..... this shouldnt go in the study hall..... this is a topic of discussion regarding cheating... not a particular class or subject.

[Edited on April 26, 2009 at 9:32 PM. Reason : x]

4/26/2009 9:30:05 PM

^^^i stumbled across it several times in boles' thermo text. it amused me

4/26/2009 9:33:10 PM

There is no solution manual in the real world.

4/26/2009 10:37:13 PM

In Boles' class though, if you don't know the material it will clearly show. His tests are a mind warp that you had better be prepared for. You're not going to get anything past him, he's been doing thermo longer than you've been alive.

4/26/2009 10:42:20 PM

Ok I guess since I have enough perspective, here are the details:

(Preface) - Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY in the class has a solutions manual for this book.

A certain teacher in a certain class assigned a very difficult homework set a few weeks ago. On the first problem, the solutions manual made several assumptions that were very specific (assume 2.4 meters, for example) with seemingly random numbers that ended up lending themselves to the fastest solution. Since other people in the class are idiots, half the class turned in a homework with the same assumptions, without realizing what the book had done. The teacher isn't an idiot, and he knew something was going on. He sent out an email subject line: "Honor Code Violations" and proceeded to tell the whole class to report ANY cheating/honor code violations you knew of by 5 PM last Wed or he would forward all the "pertinent documents" to the code of conduct people.

Now, after looking at the solutions, I didn't understand what the solutions manual did for the first problem, so I didn't copy it. I don't consider a solutions manual cheating ANYWAYS, but since he had no "proof," I wasn't going to turn myself in. It came to my attention, however, that another student confessed to copying it, and when asked where he got it from, gave my name.

I went to talk to the teacher, and he said merely possessing the solutions manual is cheating, and that if I admitted having one to him, he would deal with it in class and not involve the office of student conduct people. From what I understand, 56 of the 71 students in the class are somehow implemented (ie: their homeworks are suspicious or they have been named as giving it to somebody).

After all this, which I hope you were able to follow~ a couple questions:

a) Is that really cheating, and would the Office of Student Conduct think so?

b) Based on some of your prior experiences - what do you think a teacher in this situation would do? As in, what is the resolution to this problem?

c) Would he be within his rights to go so far as to fail a graduating senior for "possessing" the solutions manual?

4/26/2009 10:51:10 PM

Snitches get stitches.

4/26/2009 11:05:15 PM

i can't imagine getting through some of the classes without a solutions manual. if you are just copying answers it is going to show on the test, but its nice to have tons more examples worked out to figure out what is going on (it was the only way i got through a couple classes)

possessing a solutions manual is not cheating, it is just another reference. if a professor is really worried about it they should write their own problems.

4/26/2009 11:07:49 PM

^^

Prof should know having a manual is public domain. Means he needs to make his own problems or put rules with it (eg make your own problems). I have a prof, gives all the answers and stuff, and another doesnt grade hwk.

No its not cheating. You can buy it. Copy it, not your problem. You didnt copy it from a student or steal it. Its from the book and the company. Completely legal.

Thats part 1 of your question, part 2 i kinda answered first, teacher needs to get creative. ive seen many solutions to this problem. some work, some dont.

Third, if he does, hes a dumbass, and im sure you could get it overridden with the dean/department head and/or your advisor. if they are an instructor/lecturer and not a professor, this could get them fired, and not you in trouble.

4/26/2009 11:10:22 PM

doesn't matter what we think. all that matters is what the university thinks and the university says it's cheating. they say that merely possessing the soln manual is cheating. end of discussion.

i agree that they are very useful. i agree that they can help you learn the material better. i agree that they can save you a lot of time.

in my experience, if i don't have a soln manual and i don't know how to do something, i just go to the TA. every TA i have had thus far immediately pulls out the soln manual and tells me how it's done. if i get the manual, i can skip the leg work and learn it when it's convenient for me.


of course, this is all hypothetical because i don't use soln manuals.

4/26/2009 11:47:20 PM

NeuseRvrRat:

Can you point me to where in the code of conduct it says possessing a solutions manual is cheating?

I asked my professor to and his response was: "If you want to do that, we can look for it in front of Paul Cousins."

I found that quite rude, but regardless, I can't find any statute where it explicitly bans solutions manuals...

4/26/2009 11:54:39 PM

In general, they can be really useful to get you out of a jam if your dead stuck. And they are often used by slackers to get through. They can contain errors, and a student using them as a supplement usually finds them.

My theory is this:

Since most classes (in my experience) have HW count about 10-15% of the grade, using the manual is a risk to the student because you're gambling your immediate grade (10-15%) against ACTUALLY learning the stuff long-term (which goes towards the much-larger percentage of your grade). That being said, the 10-15% USUALLY can't help a slacker pass if he/she just copies the manual. So, I think they're ok, but you gotta acknowledge the risk you're taking.

I've talked to some MAE professors who've told me that about half their department thinks they're ok and half don't. In particular, I've heard Dr. Terry has checked HWs for copied sections of the manual. Others profs, like Tran, know students have them, but don't care because you WON'T pass their class copying a manual.


And NeuseRvrRat is right about the TA thing. That even happens w/ profs sometimes. It's kinda hypocritical. Like when you go to Heat Transfer Problem Session and the TA reads straight out of the manual...

[Edited on April 27, 2009 at 12:37 AM. Reason : ]

4/27/2009 12:21:59 AM

^ I believe that "official" MAE policy includes that solutions manuals are cheating, old tests are cheating, and homework should be done on engineering paper. I include the last one as an indication that it's really up to a professor to police those. I'm not sure whether this is written down anywhere or not, but I believe I remember Gould or Silverberg saying it at the matriculation thing I went to a couple years back.

It seems pretty clear that having the answers to something you are being graded on is outright cheating, no matter how (or whether) you use it.

4/27/2009 1:20:33 AM

Quote :

"It seems pretty clear that having the answers to something you are being graded on is outright cheating, no matter how (or whether) you use it."

quote of the thread

4/27/2009 2:13:47 AM

Quote :

"Can you point me to where in the code of conduct it says possessing a solutions manual is cheating?"

don't be so naive. you know good and well that this university doesn't need that in writing to fuck your world up.

4/27/2009 6:58:30 AM

http://www.ncsu.edu/stud_affairs/osc/AIpage/acaintegrity.html

Quote :

"12. Submitting for academic evaluation any material in whole or part that has been prepared by another individual(s) or commercial agency."

4/27/2009 7:32:44 AM

Quote :

"^ I believe that "official" MAE policy includes that solutions manuals are cheating, old tests are cheating, and homework should be done on engineering paper. I include the last one as an indication that it's really up to a professor to police those. I'm not sure whether this is written down anywhere or not, but I believe I remember Gould or Silverberg saying it at the matriculation thing I went to a couple years back. It seems pretty clear that having the answers to something you are being graded on is outright cheating, no matter how (or whether) you use it. "

I agree.


I call anyone a badass who can do well in MAE without a Sols manual.

4/27/2009 9:18:55 AM

You should of just lied when the professor asked you if you had a solution manual based on another student just blurting out your name.

4/27/2009 12:10:38 PM

Normally I would have, but I have a job offer contingent upon graduation starting May 11th.

So if he decided one of us was lying and he'd let the Student Conduct Office figure that out, it wouldn't have been resolved in time and it would be just as bad as if I'd failed the class.

4/27/2009 3:16:58 PM

Did he ever mention that you weren't allowed to use them as a supplement? I mean, reading ^^^^ it's pretty obvious that you can't submit that work as your own, but that's not what you're asking. I don't think that implies that you can't even own the manual. So, it doesn't sound like you're disobeying any inherent honor code provision, and unless it's in the syllabus or he mentioned it in class, I don't see how he can expect you to know you aren't even allowed to own it.

[Edited on April 27, 2009 at 3:27 PM. Reason : ]

4/27/2009 3:27:22 PM

If homework is graded, you should not reference anyone's answers (this most certainly includes an official solution) but your own. This is clear in every class unless stated otherwise; rationalizing it any other way is a delusion. If you do reference an answer from an external source (internet, manual, whatever), you should fully cite your source in your homework. If you do not cite your source because you think it would cause some kind of problem for you (your hw grade, questions from the teacher, etc), then you already know in your heart it's cheating.

A better solution is to go to Carolina. Harder to get in up front, but free A's all the way after that just for showing up and downloading their political philosophy.

4/27/2009 3:45:48 PM

1) Does anyone graduate from Engineering here WITHOUT ever having a solutions manual to at least some of the classes?

2) It is a fact that if all you do is copy all your answers from the manuals throughout college, it will end up biting you in the end.

3) It is also a fact that having the solutions manuals is a VERY helpful tool in LEARNING how to do problems by allowing you to check your answers. Simply spending 4 hours on an assignment only to turn it in with wrong answers because you didn't do them right doesn't always teach you that much. Being able to see after the first 1 that you obviously are doing something wrong can help you figure out what you did wrong and actually help you learn the material.

Obviously people are going to end up using it for all kinds of reasons. But simply OWNING a manual imho shouldn't be against the honor policy. Thats my 2 cents and if everything you say is true, I hope things work out positively for you.

4/27/2009 3:46:18 PM

Quote :

"If homework is graded, you should not reference anyone's answers (this most certainly includes an official solution) but your own. This is clear in every class unless stated otherwise; rationalizing it any other way is a delusion. If you do reference an answer from an external source (internet, manual, whatever), you should fully cite your source in your homework. If you do not cite your source because you think it would cause some kind of problem for you (your hw grade, questions from the teacher, etc), then you already know in your heart it's cheating."

4/27/2009 4:13:51 PM

Good picture! Those puppies would go good with some tabasco sauce.

4/27/2009 4:16:13 PM

If you need a supplement, there are plenty of references available for free in the library that have worked examples.

^^^ CalledToArms, you seem to forget that professors routinely release solutions to homework after it's been turned in or handed back. So you will get the feedback of seeing the correct approach whether you work honestly or dishonestly.

edit: you're arguing that they _can_ be helpful, my point is that it's not the only way.

[Edited on April 27, 2009 at 4:27 PM. Reason : .]

4/27/2009 4:27:09 PM

the biggest problem i see is there's often several different ways to work a problem depending on assumptions, methods, etc. think thermo and solid mechanics. in most of my classes, the TAs are completely out of touch with what we're working on, so they simply grade straight by the soln manual. if you don't have exactly what they see in the manual, you get it wrong. they don't look to see what you did.

i like that 10-15% of my grade.

4/27/2009 5:04:36 PM

i hope that boles it not a teacher that has a problem with solution manuals, because if he is he needs to include more than 2 examples in a chapter

4/27/2009 9:01:42 PM

boles said his solution manual says "if you're a student using this manual then you are using it without permission" on every page

of course i wouldn't know though

4/27/2009 9:03:51 PM

i don't think i ever had one for his class, but that text sucked as far as examples went

4/27/2009 9:24:43 PM

In response to a few of the questions:

I don't know about other students, but I honestly don't copy the solutions manual. I have it open and I use it to work out the homeworks, but I don't copy it. I understand everything that goes into my homework.

My teacher said straight up that merely OWNING a solutions manual is cheating. I asked him (I know I know I was kinda pushing it) if that meant I was not allowed to use the solutions manual I now possessed to study for the final. He said absolutely not and I had to destroy it immediately. He basically told me I couldn't use a reference to learn the material.

And to answer a question a few posts above, no, nobody graduates engineering without solutions, old tests, old labs, SOMETHING... I couldn't tell you the last class I DIDN'T have a solutions manual for...

4/27/2009 10:52:30 PM

Quote :

"1) Does anyone graduate from Engineering here WITHOUT ever having a solutions manual to at least some of the classes?"

I'm about 97% on this. The one class I used a solutions manual for to figure stuff out was dynamics, and even then I did not use it for half the class. I tried to learn the material as best I could, put down all the thoughts I had for the solution for a problem, studied the questions for the test problems as best I could (as I recall our grades were absolute garbage, so he actually gave us about 20-30 questions from the textbook of which he was going to pick a certain number for the test or something like that).

Outside of that I learned everything I could in my major by reading the textbook or using a technical wikipedia reference to remind me of something. That was 3 credit hours of the 131 total credit hours you'll find on my transcript that I used a solutions manual for to figure out how to work a number of problems.

^ So you are currently admitting that, in lieu of pulling all-nighters, busting ass, reading textbooks, periodically bugging the professor, and accepting a few assignments with iffy grades, you more or less cheated? And not saying that you haven't pulled all-nighters, but you've managed to avoid quite a bit of work if you've used a solutions manual/old material to get you through most every engineering class you've taken here at state. You might want to remove that last sentence from your post.

Since you're CEM I can't really make a solid guess on what course it was that this came up in. TBH it sounds just like the issue I had with dynamics though, where assumptions were pulled from mid-air and often times there was absolutely no procedure to go through for a given problem. It was just poorly-taught confusing slop. I'm not meaning to pass judgment on your actions, I'm just standing up for those who worked for their degree without using such "study aids".

And if nobody believes me, bug kimslackey.

I got a C in that dynamics class btw. I'm certain that without a curve I (and others) would have had grades around a 40-60 level.

[Edited on April 27, 2009 at 11:04 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on April 27, 2009 at 11:10 PM. Reason : clarification]

4/27/2009 11:03:00 PM

First of all, how did you know I'm CEM? (Edit: I'm an idiot, it's in the user info thing.)

Also, I'm not saying I used the solutions manual in lieu of asking the professor and pulling all nighters and all that stuff. I'm just saying that if a) if everyone else is using one, why should I intentionally disadvantage myself and b) if such a useful resource to learning is out there, why should I ignore it?

If you honestly went through the ME program and only used a solutions manual for one class, then more power to you. You're a better person that I am I guess.

The class is soils, CE 342.

[Edited on April 27, 2009 at 11:15 PM. Reason : ]

4/27/2009 11:13:45 PM

Nah I went through base Civil Engineering and went back for grad school til I realized I didn't have enough financial resources available to me to go through with it (being diabetic and not qualifying for financial aid sucks). I'm also a very odd outlier of an individual for more or less being antisocial and going lone ranger on most of my classes (except when working with my roommate or doing group homework, I never actively sought out big groups to do homework with).

As for the class, yeah, that was one I think a lot of folks used the solutions manual for when I went through it, IIRC. That is, if hearsay counts for anything. Soils was one of the major classes that nobody really got along with (maybe including... let's say dynamics, hydraulics, and hydrology in that same boat). I'm not going to act like it's totally outrageous that anybody would get extra help for that class. Geotechnical enigneering is a very difficult field and that class was not taught well at all when I went through it. I made up for it with the seepage & earth structures class afterward though (as that helped me catch up on the shit I had wrong AND learn a few new tricks).

Maybe when my kids go to NCSU that won't be a problem any more and they'll have their act together.

4/27/2009 11:25:36 PM

Yeah dude. I don't want to give any names but the teacher I have now is EASILY the worst teacher I have had in four years at NC State. Like without question. How do you teach a math intensive course and not work a single example problem all year long? The average on his first test was a 41 or something (I somehow pulled off a miracle 64, which was like the third highest grade heh) and what does he do? Yells at US as if it's our fault he can't teach the subject.

I don't honestly know how the CE department can allow him to continue teaching this. I know for a fact about half the class has gone to our undergrad coordinator (Dr. Parish) to discuss the problems with him/the class.

And to top it all off, the class is pretty hard in the first place...

And to be totally honest man, I don't consider the solutions manual cheating. To me, it's another resource with which to learn the material. I have never been told it's cheating. Some teachers ENCOURAGE it. I walked into Dr. Nau's (Steel Design) office the other day with his solutions in hand to ask how he had arrived a certain solution. How are some teachers so down to earth and know what goes on, and others so naive?

4/27/2009 11:33:53 PM

Remember though, there is a difference between using the solutions manual for a class and having the teacher provide you with solutions for the problems (or for a number of unrelated example problems or what have you).

If you're using the resource to determine the exact methodology used for one particular problem, that's more or less cheating. Using a textbook or a related example problem (i.e. a problem that is not included in the HW assignment, from your textbook or provided as an example by the teacher) is not cheating and is certainly a reasonable part of the learning process. I'd also say that using the answer from the back of the book is not necessarily cheating as it is just a number. If you can not provide the page of work necessary to show that you can solve the problem and get the correct answer, having the correct answer written down will only screw you over. That's why there's the issue with solutions manuals, as everything you need to feign your proficiency with the material is there for you to use (I also never had a professor who did not have an issue with people using a direct solutions manual, old homework/tests, or directly copying work to assist with solving homework problems).

As for why that teacher is still here? Tenure. He also likely provides very valuable research to the university and they're trying to find out what class he can teach for the department, such that it actually ends up being useful for the students. I had a number of teachers like that and all I've got to say about it was: It's just one class. I had a few courses that I was happy to pass and walk away from.

4/27/2009 11:48:19 PM

I could see how CE 342 could be a pain in the ass with a shitty teacher. I had Dr Evans, he was a great teacher in my opinion.

The two classes in which I would def understand someone using a solution manual are Dynamics with Chao ( Worse Teacher Ever) and Hydraulics.

4/28/2009 8:06:45 AM

Quote :

"First of all, how did you know I'm CEM? (Edit: I'm an idiot, it's in the user info thing.) "

just came by to reiterate you noobed all over yourself.

4/28/2009 10:13:03 AM

Quote :

"I'm just saying that if a) if everyone else is using one, why should I intentionally disadvantage myself and b) if such a useful resource to learning is out there, why should I ignore it?"

Everyone else is also abusing ADD/ADHD medication in order to study better, you might as well do that too, why disadvantage yourself in that regard as well? There was a story on the news this morning linking ADHD medication and higher test scores: http://www.digtriad.com/news/features/article.aspx?storyid=123205

Also just wanted to point out that there is a difference between a solutions manual and a student solutions manual (I know every textbook doesn't have a student version), not sure which you are using though. If it is the student solutions manual then I wouldn't consider that cheating the slightest bit.

[Edited on April 28, 2009 at 10:42 AM. Reason : ]

4/28/2009 10:36:53 AM

Taking drugs is a whole different story than using a solutions manual to solve homework sets.

4/28/2009 10:42:58 AM

Quote :

"I don't want to give any names but the teacher I have now is EASILY the worst teacher I have had in four years at NC State. Like without question."

i realize that is an opinion that you posted, but you're just flat out wrong on that one.

4/28/2009 10:45:41 AM

Plus you've been incriminating the fuck out of yourself all over this page, Brandon.

Do you really think teachers don't read tww at all? Because a dude just got called last week in the C++ Poker thread by his own TA and prof, so you better watch yourself.

(I know the odds of someone in CSC lurking tww are higher than CE, but seriously man you're noobing all over yourself repeatedly)

4/28/2009 10:56:11 AM

Quote :

"but seriously man you're noobing all over yourself repeatedly"

need a towel, colekc2?

4/28/2009 1:15:17 PM

How am I incriminating myself?

There is nothing I've posted here that I haven't either told him in his office with regards to the "cheating" incident, or put on the course evaluations, or told the CE Dept. Head.

Also, how am I "flat out wrong" in my opinion that he is the worst teahcer I HAVE had? I'm not claiming an extensive knowledge of all teachers at NC State - simply speaking from personal experience. And I'm also not knocking him as a person/researcher in any way. In fact, I'm sure he's a fantastic professor for a grad level course. But for the undergrad CE 342 class I'm taking - he is simply not an effective teacher.

4/29/2009 7:44:51 AM

just quit bitching, stop trying to validate the use of a solutions manual -- we all know you are going to wait till the night before, copy the assignment from the manual, and call it a done deal -- and go on with your life.

4/29/2009 8:01:23 AM