Fireworks over Baghdad as Iraqis take over cities

Quote :

"BAGHDAD – Iraqi forces assumed formal control of Baghdad and other cities Tuesday after American troops handed over security in urban areas in a defining step toward ending the U.S. combat role in the country. A countdown clock broadcast on Iraqi TV ticked to zero as the midnight deadline passed for U.S. combat troops to finish their pullback to bases outside cities. 'The withdrawal of American troops is completed now from all cities after everything they sacrificed for the sake of security,' said Sadiq al-Rikabi, a senior adviser to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. 'We are now celebrating the restoration of sovereignty.' The Pentagon did not offer any comment to mark the passing of the deadline."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq

This is a day for celebration. Yet, there is understated coverage from the mainstream media and a deafening silence from the Pentagon--just as it is here. Curious, damned curious.

6/30/2009 3:54:28 PM

what the fuck is it with you people? Are you not satisfied with anything?

Anything the media or the Administration does, then it's the opposite of what they should be doing.....

What do you want of this event, exactly? Are you happy we're pulling out of Iraq now? Is that what you think we should be doing? Because all the rhetoric until now made it seem like you guys would prefer we stay there forever.

Does it make you happy to see Iraqis dancing in the street because the Americans, who invaded them 6 years ago have have killed 10s of thousands of them, and been complicit in the deaths of 100's of thousands of others by allowing a civil war to erupt, are finally leaving? Why are you celebrating ("This is a day for celebration.")? Because you're happy we're leaving? Or you're happy that they're happy we're leaving?

6/30/2009 3:59:40 PM

^ 1. Why is this a day of celebration? One reason is that the Iraqis are beginning to take (and have been taking) responsibility for their own security and future.

2. An occasion such as National Sovereignty Day in Iraq deserved no comment whatsoever from the Pentagon? Really?! Is this actually your position?

For Christ's sake, I've seen more coverage when Obama and Biden go out for a cheeseburger than this historic event!

3. At any rate, today's events take Iraq one step closer to being a fully functioning democracy in the Middle East, which is pretty much unheard of. Furthermore, it reveals the error of many leftists who declared the war in Iraq lost years ago--clearly, this is not the case.

General Ray Odierno: 'Important day' in Iraq - 06-30-09

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZUabpyOzGs

[Edited on June 30, 2009 at 4:29 PM. Reason : PS: We're not withdrawing from Iraq just yet. FYI. ]

6/30/2009 4:18:55 PM

a deadline from a year-old timetable (OMG TIMETABLE) passed, and troops that had previously been inside city limits will now be stationed outside the city limits, ready to come in again "as the situation necessitates". This doesn't indicate the war is any closer or further from being won, or that Iraq is any closer or further from being a real democracy - it just means we're sticking to a plan.

[Edited on June 30, 2009 at 4:37 PM. Reason : r]

6/30/2009 4:37:00 PM

Quote :

"what the fuck is it with you people? Are you not satisfied with anything?"

Silence is not a response. That makes it seem more like they were reluctant to give up sovereignty in Iraq but had to anyway...This is a big deal and a step in the right direction. And supposedly what they've been fighting for from day 1 (as in day 1 of the new mission after they found out they were duped into thinking Iraq had WMD). so you would think there would be some kind of response or acknowledgement.

6/30/2009 4:48:43 PM

maybe they are waiting to see what happens



you know, like when you pull out of a chick after busting...and the condom has disappeared...you dont say much till the next period.

6/30/2009 4:57:21 PM

^not at all the same thing.

Words of hope, change, and all that other mambo jumbo that obama was throwing about during his campaign would be appropriate right now.

6/30/2009 4:59:58 PM

^^^^ Not true concerning progress in Iraq--and no thanks to Obama and many other Democrats who didn't support the surge and declared the war lost.

Quote :

"Now I believe, myself, that the secretary of state, the secretary of defense and you have to make your own decision as to what the president knows: that this war is lost, that the surge is not accomplishing anything."

--"Dingy" Harry Reid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYZEGot-xU4

Quote :

"[If General Petraeus' report is good] That would be a real big problem for us. No question about that."

--Jim Clyburn

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2007/07/30/VI2007073001325.html

And you were the one who posted this:

Quote :

"Are you happy we're pulling out of Iraq now?"

I guess you Googled furiously to get your facts straight.

6/30/2009 5:06:46 PM

hahaha don't google furiously too much or you might hurt yourself

6/30/2009 5:14:52 PM

^^ give me a break - i've been "up" on the situation, as they've covered it well on All Things Considered and Morning Edition. I haven't googled or looked up anything since seeing this thread.
"oh lawdy, you caught me - i'm so embarrassed! All this time I was thinking that hooksaw informed me, this afternoon, that the war was over and the US was leaving Iraq by tomorrow!"

6/30/2009 5:19:24 PM

^ Let's just cut to the chase:

1. Did we reach this important milestone in Iraq because of or in spite of Obama and his pals in Congress?

2. Was Obama right or wrong about the surge?

3. Are you saying silence concerning this important day in Iraq was the right move by the Pentagon?

6/30/2009 5:39:34 PM

the only important milestone is that we're getting out of the cities. political gains inside iraq have been minimal. i don't have high hopes for their stability in the coming months and years.

6/30/2009 5:43:47 PM

There have been pentagon spokespeople talking about this on TV. I'm not sure (nor do I really care...) if they have issues any press releases.

6/30/2009 5:46:30 PM

hooksaws questions:
1) this is a milestone on the timetable, yes. It's potentially an important one. It all depends on what happens in the coming weeks and months with what happens with the newfound power-vacuums
2) He was wrong, as he admitted during the election. The entire strategy change, of which "the troop surge" was a part, was obviously for the better. Of course, it couldn't have gotten much worse than what it was for the 4 years after the invasion
3) I'm indifferent to the silence from the pentagon.

and

4) i was mostly pointing out why you have to make such a big deal about everything the gov't does or doesn't do, if it doesn't follow your liking exactly

6/30/2009 5:51:29 PM

Wait. What's this I hear about Obama and Biden going out for a cheeseburger?

6/30/2009 5:52:03 PM

obama and biden went out for a hamburger

6/30/2009 5:53:38 PM

With regards to the lack of media coverage on this, I'm not surprised. I'm even more disappointed, but even less surprised, by the total drop-off in coverage of Iran. When a bunch of celebrities die, the media becomes even more useless than normal.


In fact, I just finished re-reading The Truth (by Terry Pratchett), and there's an entirely relevant quote that this whole issue brings to mind:
"What's in the public interest is not what the public is interested in."

6/30/2009 5:58:23 PM

well regarding the iran story: basically nothing is coming in or out of iran right now. i'm not surprised the networks tired of basically reporting hearsay. i haven't watched the tv news in a while. did they report on the certification of election by the guardian council? that's the big news of the past few days.

the iran story will pop back up again in a few weeks. i have no doubt.

6/30/2009 6:01:49 PM

Quote :

"Yet, there is understated coverage from the mainstream media and a deafening silence from the Pentagon--just as it is here. Curious, damned curious."

my favorite part is insinuating that this forum is somehow part of the conspiracy

6/30/2009 7:31:23 PM

THE WOLFWEB IS PART OF THE PROBLEM!

6/30/2009 7:37:38 PM

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/



[quote]By Emily Ngo

In hopes of realizing its goal of full withdrawal by the end of 2011, the U.S. prepared to pull its troops from Iraq’s urban areas by Tuesday, National Sovereignty Day. Some U.S. soldiers will remain in the cities to train and assist Iraqi forces; others will continue on combat missions in rural regions.

Michael Yon, author of “Moment of Truth in Iraq” and a former Green Beret, spoke with amNewYork about Tuesday’s milestone.

What can be expected immediately after Tuesday’s withdrawal?
Many Iraqis are very worried about our pullout. I cannot guess the potential for street riots, but an increase in violence is nearly assured.

How prepared are Iraqi security forces to take over these areas?
The Iraqi Security Forces [ISF] is a mixed bag and very much a work in progress. Some of the Police and Army are quite good and capable of managing their areas, but overall, the ISF is likely not yet ready to take on this job without our direct support.

Will the insurgents change their tactics?
They constantly change. What we see now are not really “insurgents” like those we saw from 2003 through mid-2007. What’s left now are truly the “dead enders” that [former Defense Secretary] Donald Rumsfeld talked about. The remaining terrorists have no real hope of overthrowing the Iraqi government.

Why not?[/b]
The Iraqi Security Forces need years more to develop, but they are already a serious force to reckon with. The terrorists who continue to murder Iraqis are highly unlikely to unseat this government.

What is the public sentiment in Iraq toward the U.S.?
Again, this is a mixed bag. The Iraqis and Americans are now bound together by our history. Especially so in this war. In general, I do not see animosity towards Americans. Americans do not have animosity towards Iraqis. We have a permanent relationship that likely will only grow with time.

What impact will this have on other U.S. troops and Western workers in Iraq?
Iraq is a sovereign nation and will be increasingly responsible for security of western workers. Those workers will fall under laws of Iraq.

What are the security situations in Iraq’s urban areas versus its rural areas?
Very mixed. Some areas of Baghdad have been safe for a long time. But we still see scattered attacks. Other areas, such as Mosul, are still contested very dangerous. Rural areas, such as out in Anbar and Diyala provinces, fall more under tribal law than GOI [government of Iraq] laws. The further you get from major cities, the more tribal it becomes. Tribal does not necessarily mean dangerous, but the laws of the land are different. The tribes are very powerful in rural areas.

How involved will the U.S. remain in Iraq and for how long?
We are brothers now. We might bicker and fight back and forth sometimes, but we are bound by our blood to stay involved. Iraq doesn’t want to see America turn its back, and America has no intention of doing so. Our relationship, in my opinion, will slowly improve through the years. Our fighting days are over.

What security measures must be in place before the U.S. realizes its goal of a full withdrawal by the 2011 deadline?
We need to hear U.S. and Iraqi commanders saying that the ISF can handle internal and external threats. The Iraqi government and the Iraqi people are not our enemies. We shouldn’t trip over ourselves getting out. Our withdrawal needs to be done in a rational, conditions-based way. Let’s see how the remainder of 2009 plays out.

6/30/2009 8:04:13 PM

Quote :

"Does it make you happy to see Iraqis dancing in the street because the Americans, who invaded them 6 years ago have have killed 10s of thousands of them, and been complicit in the deaths of 100's of thousands of others by allowing a civil war to erupt, are finally leaving? Why are you celebrating ("This is a day for celebration.")? Because you're happy we're leaving? Or you're happy that they're happy we're leaving?"

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. How in the hell do people form these opinions that are so wrong.

I mean its so wrong its disturbing. Its like a cockroach. If you see one person with this opinion, there must be many more.

[Edited on June 30, 2009 at 8:06 PM. Reason : fdsa]

6/30/2009 8:06:38 PM

i don't see any personal opinions expressed in that little rhetorical rant.....


oh the bolded part? Right - that's not an opinion either, really. I would say more along the lines of it's a fact that at least 100,000 people have been killed in Iraqi in-fighting and in collateral damage

[Edited on June 30, 2009 at 8:10 PM. Reason : .]

6/30/2009 8:09:22 PM

Quote :

"^ Let's just cut to the chase: 1. Did we reach this important milestone in Iraq because of or in spite of Obama and his pals in Congress? 2. Was Obama right or wrong about the surge? 3. Are you saying silence concerning this important day in Iraq was the right move by the Pentagon?"

1. The road to the conditions on the ground were set in motion in late 2006. Obama is just riding the wave.

2. Obama and all the Democrats were always completely wrong about Iraq. Only by doing the exact opposite of what the Democrats wanted to happen were the conditions on the ground able to improve as fast as they have allowing the view of "Pulling out of Iraq" to be a viable option.

We would never, I mean never, pulled out of Iraq if it would have led to complete civil war or the collapse of the government. The reason is simple. The effect on the worlds economy due to Insurgents controlling the oil supplies or Saudi Arabia/Iran invading to prevent the oil to fall into radical hands was enough of a reason.

But yea, I have entire threads to all of this. ITS HAPPY TIME IN IRAQ!

3. No comment

6/30/2009 8:15:56 PM

Quote :

" oh the bolded part? Right - that's not an opinion either, really. I would say more along the lines of it's a fact that at least 100,000 people have been killed in Iraqi in-fighting and in collateral damage"

let me focus the bolding there for you.

Quote :

"Does it make you happy to see Iraqis dancing in the street because the Americans, who invaded them 6 years ago have have killed 10s of thousands of them, and been complicit in the deaths of 100's of thousands of others by allowing a civil war to erupt, are finally leaving? Why are you celebrating ("This is a day for celebration.")? Because you're happy we're leaving? Or you're happy that they're happy we're leaving?"

6/30/2009 8:17:37 PM

ok - i'll backpedal a bit, because I truly don't feel "complicit" is the proper word for describing what happened, and I did not mean to imply, as 'complicit' does, that the military was standing idly by or somehow intentionally not doing what they could to prevent deaths.

I basically should have said "indirectly caused" those deaths, because it is undeniable that starting with the invasion, then exacerbated by the power vacuum caused by the US lack of a plan after the gov't overthrow or early counterinsurgency tactics, 100's of thousands of people have been killed who otherwise, likely, would not have been.

6/30/2009 8:33:28 PM

^ From Daily Kos--so maybe you'll believe it:

Quote :

"It is important to note that although we can find evidence that Saddam's actions resulted in the death of over 3 million people, the bulk of this total (2.5 million) is composed by atrocities that predate Bush's march to war."

http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Saddam_the_Mass_Murderer

And now the Iraqi people have a chance at freedom. It beats the hell out of living under the boot heel of a dictator.

7/1/2009 2:09:33 AM

Quote :

"Words of hope, change, and all that other mambo jumbo that obama was throwing about during his campaign would be appropriate right now."

but then it'd just be mumbo jumbo

7/1/2009 3:15:46 AM

^^and most of those (2.5 MM) were deaths caused by a war that reagan was complicit in making last longer.

also, why are we comparing our actions to the actions of hussein?

7/1/2009 7:56:04 AM

^ It was agentlion who seemed to be obsessed with the body count--not me. In any event, I'm confident that most Iraqis would rather die on their feet than live on their knees.

7/1/2009 12:49:31 PM

Quote :

"In any event, I'm confident that most Iraqis would rather die on their feet than live on their knees."

yes, which is exactly why we were "greeted as liberators".

oh, what? we weren't?

7/1/2009 12:51:31 PM

7/1/2009 1:24:20 PM

^

7/1/2009 2:08:09 PM

Quote :

""In any event, I'm confident that most Iraqis would rather die on their feet than live on their knees.""

I don't think that applies when the dying on your feet part is thrust upon you.

7/1/2009 2:30:05 PM

Quote :

"I don't think. . . ."

Right there's where you went in the ditch.

7/1/2009 2:45:20 PM

^a real bang-up rebuttal you have there

7/1/2009 2:47:36 PM

^ Yeah, all the replies I get are top-notch, too.

7/1/2009 3:02:43 PM

7/1/2009 3:17:17 PM

7/1/2009 3:26:20 PM

Quote :

"In any event, I'm confident that most Iraqis would rather die on their feet than live on their knees"

chea right.

you're forgetting about that instinctual self-preservation thing. sure you you'll have your idealistic crazies, but otherwise people like to live d00d.


you're confident. ha.

7/1/2009 3:26:20 PM

What you all seem to be ignoring is that it shouldn't matter what we think they'd rather do, because deciding what someone else wants for their own lives is WRONG, plain and simple. That said, I do think it's good that we removed Saddam from power, because that sort of thing is exactly what he did. (though I don't think it's good that we were lied to about the reasons for war)

Besides that, either end of the "die on their feet" vs "live on their knees" argument could reasonably be used to support the actions of Saddam's regime:
They'd rather die on their feet? That's great, because Saddam executed a shit ton of his own people! Let's thank him for setting them free!
They'd rather live on their knees? That's great, because Saddam certainly abused them enough to keep them kneeling!


Summary: Trying to decide what the Iraqi people want for them is pointless, morally wrong, and pro-ruthless-dictatorship.

7/1/2009 3:38:04 PM

Whatever. In the meantime. . . .

7/1/2009 3:40:12 PM

Quote :

"Whatever"

typical response. Thats about all we can expect of proponents of this war.
"There were no WMDs? ehh, whatever"
"They didn't greet us with flowers? yeah, whatever"
"Up to half-million Iraqis have been killed in fighting since the invasion? ok, whatever"
"The country is imploding in a civil war? fine, whatever"
"The long-term cost of the war may be $2 Trillion? sure, whatever"

7/1/2009 3:53:54 PM

Security is going to be an issue as long as that key is floating around. They need to at least make it smaller and put it on a keychain with other keys, because right now if they lose it and someone else finds it then it will be pretty obvious what it's for. I can only hope that we returned the proportionally large fake rock that we hid it in since 2003.

7/1/2009 3:55:50 PM

^^^ I could just as easily post pictures of bloody clumps of human body parts, children without legs, a dying woman with her entrails hanging out, or a blown up school. Not caused by Saddam or terrorist attacks
but by US (with allies) "Collateral damage". The point is kind of moot though as its a matter of refrence as to rather or not
certain people in Iraq are better off in the New Iraq or if the US invasion made their lives worse if not taken from them. Surely
generations of historians will argue and debate if the end justify the means or if the invasion was justified or not.

IMHO the pentagon has been silence b.c they feel stupid that the intelligence they relied on (those who worked there under Bush) was false.
Further it is probably not good press that Iraqi's are "cheering" our troops leaving. Besides it is nothing new that Paris Hilton caught drunk driving
, Michael Phelps smoking pot,
or [insert congressmen here] soliciting for a prostitute beats headlines over "petty news" going around the rest of the world.

7/1/2009 4:24:28 PM

Quote :

"Further it is probably not good press that Iraqi's are "cheering" our troops leaving. "

It'd be great press if they market it as "Mission Accomplished".
...Only not in those exact words, due to a certain faux pas involving an aircraft carrier.

7/1/2009 4:28:36 PM

7/1/2009 6:33:05 PM

Quote :

"In any event, I'm confident that most Iraqis would rather die on their feet than live on their knees"

I'm not totally confident of that, actually.

Google "Marines Are From Mars, Iraqis Are From Venus".

7/1/2009 8:56:32 PM

Ares vs Ishtar

7/1/2009 9:04:40 PM

i find this declaration of "National Sovereignty Day" annoying

despite everything... the fuckedupness of it all... we have done Iraq an overall positive

they need to stop being complete dicks about it

7/1/2009 9:52:43 PM