Quote :

"Hungary Remembers Picnic that Cracked Iron Curtain SOPRONPUSZTA, Hungary – It was a picnic that changed the course of history. Twenty years ago Wednesday, members of Hungary's budding opposition organized a picnic at the border with Austria to press for greater political freedom and promote friendship with their Western neighbors. Some 600 East Germans got word of the event and turned up among the estimated 10,000 participants. They had a plan: to take advantage of an excursion across the border to escape to Austria. Lt. Col. Arpad Bella and five of his men had been expecting a Hungarian delegation to cross the border at Sopronpuszta by bus, visit a nearby Austrian town as a symbol of the new era of glasnost — or openness — under reformist Soviet leader Mikail Gorbachev, and return to Hungary. Instead, at the planned time of 3 p.m., Bella suddenly found himself face to face with 150 East Germans marching up the road to the border gate, which had been closed since 1948. "I had about 20 seconds to think about it until they got here," said Bella, 63, during an interview where the gate once stood. "Had the five of us confronted the Germans, they would have (overwhelmed us)." Once the initial group got through hundreds more East Germans joined them. Still vivid in Bella's mind was the reactions of the Germans, including many young people and families with small children, once they were on the other side. "They embraced, they kissed, they cried and laughed in their joy. Some sat down right across the border, others had to be stopped by the Austrian guards because they kept running and didn't believe they were in Austria," Bella said. "It was in incredible experience for them." Laszlo Nagy, one of the organizers of the picnic, was startled by the East Germans' actions, who left behind hundreds of cars and other possessions near the border for the chance to make the short walk to a new life in the West. "Some of them were waiting for this moment for 20 or 30 years," Nagy said. "They left behind everything ... because freedom has the greatest value." Dirk Mennenga was one the "Ossies," a nickname for East Germans, who made it to Austria on that day. He had come to Hungary from Dresden. "We had planned beforehand that we would try to cross the border through Hungary," Mennenga said. "We didn't know how easy or difficult it would be." After seeing flyers promoting the picnic, Mennenga thought the event could provide an opportunity to escape West. "It was a very emotional situation," Mennenga said. "There was a sole border guard. A young Hungarian man kept pointing the way and before we knew it we were in Austria." While Bella was unaware of the East Germans' intentions, behind the scenes the Hungarian government had already decided that it would somehow let them go West. Miklos Nemeth, Hungary's last prime minister of the communist era, said the picnic and the East Germans' breakthrough on that day was one in a series of steps that brought democracy to most of the Soviet bloc within a year. For Nagy, the significance of the events of Aug. 19 has grown over the past 20 years. "At the time, we didn't feel like we were making history," Nagy said. "It was the world's greatest garden party.""

While we continue to fight off this government's attempts to inject itself more and more into our lives and liberty, it's refreshing to remind ourselves just how much we humans value freedom...enough to leave everything behind..to risk death...just to escape the oppression of a totalitarian state.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090819/ap_on_re_eu/eu_hungary_picnic_to_freedom

8/19/2009 11:06:29 AM

Quote :

"While we continue to fight off this government's attempts to inject itself more and more into our lives and liberty, it's refreshing to remind ourselves just how much we humans value freedom...enough to leave everything behind..to risk death...just to escape the oppression of a totalitarian state. "

Have you been to post-soviet Hungary? They have, guess what, Socialized Medicine.

8/19/2009 11:15:02 AM

Thats..kind of an owning.

8/19/2009 11:15:56 AM

The Hungarian and Austrian health-care systems are considered to be among the best-perfoming systems in Europe.

8/19/2009 11:44:53 AM

hey guise awesome stance i believe you so much im gonna go get my bladder surgery in motherfucking Hungary

8/19/2009 12:24:42 PM

Quote :

"Have you been to post-soviet Hungary? They have, guess what, Socialized Medicine."

rofl this is singularly the best beasting I've seen in TSB in years

8/19/2009 12:25:40 PM

I didn't realize EarthDogg was such an ardent supporter of illegal immigration.

8/19/2009 12:34:41 PM

ok ok, slow down guys, there is only so much owning you can do in one thread before you start making the op's cry like little bitches

8/19/2009 12:37:43 PM

lol

8/19/2009 1:13:04 PM

I have some sweet anecdotal evidence to say that Hungary's health care is the best in the world.

I studied abroad there for 6 months. One of the girls in our class was having a birthday so we decided to make her a penis pinata. Well, we all got plastered and when it was my turn to hit the pinata I slipped on the hardwood and split my chin. But I had smashed the pinata, so I grabbed a bunch of candy and stuffed my pockets before some friends walked me to the hospital.

I didn't have travelers insurance, I was piss drunk and covered in blood. Also, I couldn't speak the language worth a damn, so when we got to the waiting room, we had to get another patient who had gotten into a bar fight to translate for us. I ended up having to take my pants off in the waiting room to get a tetanus shot in my ass, then they took into a room and stitched me up. I gave the receptionist whatever money i had in my pocket (~45 bucks), along with all the pinata candy and they sent me on my way.

8/19/2009 1:25:26 PM

Whoa...something really similar happened to me in the US. Except my insurance denied the claim for an existing condition. Something about being stupid. It only cost me $2500 for the whole thing though, and I had been putting in some of my own pretax fsa dollars in case of a recurring condition of stupidity, so in the end it worked out alright.

8/19/2009 1:57:20 PM

^ haha, no kidding, i fell and split my knee in college, I was insured and it cost me $1400.

[/anecdote]

8/19/2009 2:14:43 PM

^^ OK, that made me laugh somewhat.

[Edited on August 19, 2009 at 2:19 PM. Reason : fail]

8/19/2009 2:18:47 PM

ahahha. An anecdote about an American doing something stupid in Eastern Europe and being stitched up at a hospital.

Well fuck, I'm sold.

8/19/2009 2:20:50 PM

Yes, because people don't accidentally injure themselves in other countries.

8/19/2009 2:52:58 PM

Im not trying to trump the american healthcare system over the hungarian one (b/c its obvious we have some work to do). Im just not convinced their system is quite so peaches and cream.

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a714045022

Quote :

"Rising Mortality in Hungary The Hungarian death rate has been rising since the mid-1960s in part because the population was ageing but, more significantly from the health point of view, because of a real increase in mortality among certain sections of the population. The age-specific death rates of males aged 15 and over were all higher in 1980 than in the mid-1960s, the increase being particularly marked for the age group 30-59; moreover, women aged 30-59 are also now beginning to display the same characteristic"

Yes I know mortality rate isnt necessarily the best measure of a healthcare system. But an increasing death rate just wasnt what I expected when I was comparing the US and Hungary. It seems they also have an "obesity epidemic" over there similar to ours (not trying to say that it is b/c of their system).


http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Hungary.pdf

Quote :

"Apart from the abovementioned out-of-pocket payments for pharmaceuticals and dental care, ‘gratitude’payments by patients, a Communist legacy, continue to play an important role in Hungary. Lower then average salaries in the healthcare sector encourage these ‘gratitude payments’, which are subject to income tax, to guarantee quality or more speedy access to care. They substantially supplement most physicians’ salaries, but their existence clearly puts poorer patients at a disadvantage. In addition, there are significant variations in health status owing to ethnic origin; the largely poor Roma minority living in Hungary have a life expectancy 10 years lower than the rest of the population (1). There are also geographical inequalities in healthcare provision, with Budapest enjoying the best health status and highest supply of resources by quite a large margin (2)."

obviously the american system may have problems that are atleast similar to those posted above, so I am not trying to say our current system is better than theirs. I just thought this thread was a little one-sided w/ a lot of unsubstantiated "owning" going on.

8/19/2009 3:20:58 PM

I have to give the libertarians credit. It takes a certain chutzpa to equate things like "universal healthcare" with "the oppression of a totatlitarian state."

It may be a bad idea and all, it may even be too expensive and stupid, it may be unconstitutional, but I don't envision Americans desperately trying to flee the totalitarian oppression of a cruel government that is hell-bent on making sure they can get health care.

8/19/2009 3:44:13 PM

I just went to fact-check myself since the Hungarian & Austrian healthcare statement is coming from something I read in US News & World or the Economist back in college. Turns out Hungary is only middle-of-the-pack now, but Austria is near the top.

http://tinyurl.com/lzz226

[Edited on August 19, 2009 at 4:04 PM. Reason : had to tinyurl it]

8/19/2009 4:01:47 PM

Quote :

"I have to give the libertarians credit. It takes a certain chutzpa to equate things like "universal healthcare" with "the oppression of a totatlitarian state.""

Would you please cease with your insistence upon the same categorical error every time you post?

"ZOMG IT'S THE LIBARTARIANZ AGAIN!!!1"

It's EarthDogg. Which is not "the libertarians." If there's some confusion over the matter, I'd be happy to give you a brief introduction to set theory.

8/19/2009 4:24:55 PM

Quote :

"If there's some confusion over the matter, I'd be happy to give you a brief introduction to set theory."

Plenty of libertarians are crowing this so shut the fuck up and stop pretending that since EVERY LAST LIBERTARIAN isn't saying the exact same thing, that GOP can't generalize that way.

Clearly libertarians aren't a cohesive unit. Do you want a fucking cookie?

8/19/2009 4:37:57 PM

Quote :

"Plenty of libertarians are crowing this so shut the fuck up and stop pretending that since EVERY LAST LIBERTARIAN isn't saying the exact same thing, that GOP can't generalize that way."

Oh really? Plenty? Well then, by all means, point them out to us! This should be a trivial affair, no?

Quote :

"Clearly libertarians aren't a cohesive unit. Do you want a fucking cookie?"

How about you just crawl back to chit-chat and we'll call it even. Deal?

8/19/2009 5:02:06 PM

I can't figure out why anyone would take offense to that statement or that there is even a debate where set theory is brought up.

Holy fuck.

Really?

8/19/2009 5:09:21 PM

Because I'm tired of his categorical bullshit. Anytime a political issue comes up, it's instantly "tar the libertarians time."

Don't tell me you don't do the same kind of calling people out on their bullshit, because we all know it's a goddamned lie. You flake out over far more trifling things.

8/19/2009 5:15:34 PM

sergeant pepper taught the band to play

8/19/2009 6:56:06 PM

Quote :

"Because I'm tired of his categorical bullshit. Anytime a political issue comes up, it's instantly "tar the libertarians time.""

So you're tired of someone being ignorant? You're pitching a hissy fit because of this?

That's my point, unless he called you out specifically, wtf is your problem?

Quote :

"Don't tell me you don't do the same kind of calling people out on their bullshit, "

Ugh, maybe if you could specify the specific bullshit you're talking about? When kooksaw calls me specifically a "liberal", yeah, I correct it. But if he says "you liberals" in response to an issue I actually support, I don't blow my top like a kid in a candy store denied a treat.

Quote :

"You flake out over far more trifling things."

Nah dog.

8/19/2009 7:35:39 PM

Quote :

"So you're tired of someone being ignorant? You're pitching a hissy fit because of this? That's my point, unless he called you out specifically, wtf is your problem?"

No, I'm tired of this intellectually lazy refrain used to marginalize a whole class of positions, which is something GrumpyGOP does on a rather regular basis. Pick one user, extrapolate to entire political philosophy (in this case, his hobby horse, "the libertarians"), marginalize, lather, rinse, repeat. I don't think it requires much more explanation than that. Moreover, if this is what you call a "hissy fit", I'd hate to see your faint-hearted reaction to some of the other brawls going on in here.

[Edited on August 19, 2009 at 8:43 PM. Reason : .]

8/19/2009 8:41:41 PM

Quote :

"No, I'm tired of this intellectually lazy refrain used to marginalize a whole class of positions"

Oh god know, this is rich.

You were marginalized on the wolf web. Oh woe is you.

Quote :

"Pick one user, extrapolate to entire political philosophy (in this case, his hobby horse, "the libertarians"), marginalize, lather, rinse, repeat."

Quote :

"Moreover, if this is what you call a "hissy fit", I'd hate to see your faint-hearted reaction to some of the other brawls going on in here. "

Faint-hearted? That...makes no sense. Try again.

8/19/2009 9:08:04 PM

I think we should all focus more on the owning that occurred in the first reply.

8/19/2009 9:13:40 PM

Quote :

"You were marginalized on the wolf web. Oh woe is you."

Your reading comprehension is terrible. This has been demonstrated to you on more than one occasion.

8/19/2009 9:16:32 PM

A lot of conservatives mistakenly believe they are libertarians, and GrumpyGOP is serving the useful purpose of pointing out that they are not.

And I personally would like your venn diagram or whatever that you feel separates EarthDogg's brand of libertarianism from what you (DrSteveChaos) feels libertarianism is.

8/19/2009 9:28:23 PM

Well, for starters, it's generally been one person yelling "SOCIALISM!" the whole time and drawing implications that this puts us on the short road to fascism. You will note, however, that this has not been myself, despite the fact that I think the Obama plan is a boondoggle and doomed to failure.

Personally, I'd almost put EarthDogg in the paleo-conservative / paleo-libertarian category. Like Lew Rockwell and such. Who aren't the whole of libertarians, or even much like libertarians at times.

8/19/2009 9:33:08 PM

Quote :

"Have you been to post-soviet Hungary? They have, guess what, Socialized Medicine. "

I don't recall saying anything about socialized medicine in my post. My point is that humans prefer freedom to tyranny. And it's inspiring to see people fighting an evil regime and escaping their soviet masters.

Speaking of the Hungarian Health system-- From what I've read, it looks like the Hungarians are working on trying to include more free market ideas into their health-care system...rather than creating more centralized gov't control.

Currently, the public is frustrated with the two tier system that has evolved. Those who can pay "gratitude" money to doctors on the side get the premium service. Those who will not or cannot pay these tips receive the basic minimum care dictated by law.

8/19/2009 11:33:19 PM

Where else, currently, is the government trying to inject itself more and more into our lives and liberty than health care right now?

Quote :

" Currently, the public is frustrated with the two tier system that has evolved. Those who can pay "gratitude" money to doctors on the side get the premium service. Those who will not or cannot pay these tips receive the basic minimum care dictated by law."

As opposed to the American system where the poor aren't even guaranteed basic minimum care.

Nice job there, Mr. Contradictmypreviouslibertarianramblings.

[Edited on August 19, 2009 at 11:43 PM. Reason : .]

8/19/2009 11:41:01 PM

Quote :

"It's EarthDogg. Which is not "the libertarians." If there's some confusion over the matter, I'd be happy to give you a brief introduction to set theory."

Certainly some libertarians have the sense not to actually equate Obama policies with "the oppression of a totalitarian state." But plenty of them don't, and a plenty of said plenty posts on this website.

There are exceptions to every single category. There are democrats who support the death penalty and oppose abortion. There are Republicans who support Obama-esque health care reform and gay rights. There are communists who want some private enterprise and laissez-faire advocates who don't mind certain specific government interventions.

If you want me to go through and respond to the particular beliefs of every individual I've ever talked to on this site, I'm not going to do it. Sorry. I have a lot of free time, but not that much. The sad and sorry truth is that on this site the libertarians are prominently represented by such -- "lunatics" is such a harsh word -- interesting characters as EarthDogg and Megaloman.

Quote :

"Pick one user, extrapolate to entire political philosophy (in this case, his hobby horse, "the libertarians")"

To be perfectly fair, I gave just as much shit to the Communists and the Greens when they were represented on here. But they basically left and now all I've got is the libertarians.

And it's not like I'm outright lying. A good many libertarians and their ilk (including one of my favorite authors, PJ O'Rourke) love to equate social welfare with a means to totalitarianism. They also do a great deal to marginalize themselves by opposing things which have long since become accepted parts of America. My favorite examples come from the libertarian-leaning, nominally republican congressional candidate who recently offered me a job. His platform included abolishing the 17th amendment (direct election of Senators), demanding the resignation of any legislator who supported any stimulus package or war lately (pretty much everybody but him), and declaring the Mexican border "a war zone."

---

Your complaints also come off as faintly pathetic. You think I don't get tired of getting lumped in with Rush Limbaugh? Here's what you do: when someone identifies the crazy people who are representing your group, you call them out as crazy and say you wish they weren't in your group. You don't deny that they're in there, or that they're representing it, or cry that someone else is pointing either of those facts out.

You're libertarian. EarthDogg is libertarian. EarthDogg is much louder and crazier than you. If you don't want him representing your boys, you need to step up your game (and support other sane libertarians in doing the same).

And for the record, EarthDogg is not only insane, he is quite possibly David Byrne of the Talking Heads. Don't ask how I know this. He may be a lunatic, but he made some good music back in the day.

8/19/2009 11:53:11 PM

If I was Hungary, I'd probably try to go to Turkey.






Yes. That just happened.

8/19/2009 11:55:46 PM

Quote :

"Oh really? Plenty? Well then, by all means, point them out to us! This should be a trivial affair, no?"

Read the fucking internet.

Quote :

"I can't figure out why anyone would take offense to that statement or that there is even a debate where set theory is brought up. Holy fuck. Really?"

lol I'd bet good money that motherfucker can't even prove that the intersection of two sigma algebras is a sigma algebra

a shameful motherfucker

8/20/2009 9:54:51 AM

Quote :

"Those who can pay "gratitude" money to doctors on the side get the premium service. Those who will not or cannot pay these tips receive the basic minimum care dictated by law."

As opposed to "free market" systems where people that can't afford the best care get ... wait, what was your point again?

Quote :

"If I was Hungary, I'd probably try to go to Turkey. Yes. That just happened."

rofl

[Edited on August 20, 2009 at 10:00 AM. Reason : .]

8/20/2009 9:58:58 AM

Quote :

"As opposed to "free market" systems where people that can't afford the best care get "

Why are you so eager to trust gov't over the free market? Politicians are just as self-interested as the businessman. They are not selfless angels.

"But they're only to to do what helps the majority of people want so they will get re-elected!"

Politicians are going to work for those things that reward them with the most power. Pelosi, Reid, Frank...they could care less about your health. They want the power over you..that's what will keep them in office.

Because when the bill comes due for all of the "good intentions" they have spent your money on, they want to make sure you are unable to remove them or their party from power.

Quote :

"EarthDogg is much louder and crazier than you"

So those who prefer smaller gov't and more personal liberty and responsibility are crazy, and those who prefer more gov't control over our lives are reasonable?

Quote :

""We are not content with negative obedience, nor even with the most abject submission. When finally you surrender to us, it must be of your own free will. We do not destroy the heretic because he resists us; so long as he resists us we never destroy him. We convert him, we capture his inner mind, we reshape him. We burn all evil and all illusion out of him; we bring him over to our side, not in appearance, but genuinely, heart and soul. We make him one of ourselves before we kill him. It is intolerable to us that an erroneous thought should exist anywhere in the world, however secret and powerless it may be. Even in the instance of death we cannot permit any deviation . . . we make the brain perfect before we blow it out." -1984"

8/20/2009 10:45:22 AM

Quote :

"Read the fucking internet."

So basically, you got nothing - just a big pile of bluster. Whatever.

8/20/2009 10:58:44 AM

Quote :

"Why are you so eager to trust gov't over the free market? Politicians are just as self-interested as the businessman. They are not selfless angels. "

Sounds to me like they just need to work out some details. They have the "Free market" when people pay for premium care and also have a safety net to cover those who cannot pay the premium.

8/20/2009 11:15:32 AM

Quote :

"Sounds to me like they just need to work out some details. They have the "Free market" when people pay for premium care and also have a safety net to cover those who cannot pay the premium."

Or, instead of re-engineering an entire system, we could simply subsidize those who can't currently pay for care and leave the rest of folks alone. Seems like less work to me.

8/20/2009 11:18:34 AM

Quote :

"Or, instead of re-engineering an entire system, we could simply subsidize those who can't currently pay for care and leave the rest of folks alone. Seems like less work to me."

Woot woot mo money for fat cat execs

Mo money mo problems, right? *speeds off in sports car, sticking tax payers with the bill*

8/20/2009 11:20:39 AM

Or, like McDanger we could just blame the problem on greedy CEOs can call it a day.

You're right, that is much simpler.

8/20/2009 11:22:43 AM

There's no reason health insurance should be a for-profit industry. People drive around sports cars and buy beach homes using profits gained by denying legitimate claims.

What possible incentive do you have to support and defend fat cat insurance execs?

8/20/2009 11:24:40 AM

* Citation needed.

8/20/2009 11:27:07 AM

You can be intentionally difficult and stupid if you'd like. It's as if it's not true if I don't go dig up the link for you, haha.

If somebody doesn't do your homework for you on THE WOLF WEB DOT COM then clearly it's not true! la la la! Libertarianism and free markets! *rocks himself to sleep with a big ass pacifier in his mouth, the model that spoiled white libertarians seem to be born with*

8/20/2009 11:32:26 AM

Whatever, McBluster. We all know you're full of bullshit anyways.

[Edited on August 20, 2009 at 11:37 AM. Reason : Have fun with your own facts, there.]

8/20/2009 11:36:53 AM

*sucks thumb*

Hands off my inheritance! Tyranny!

[Edited on August 20, 2009 at 11:37 AM. Reason : .]

8/20/2009 11:37:40 AM

Please do rejoin us when you learn how to debate with facts and evidence, or at the very least, pass the fourth grade.

8/20/2009 11:38:33 AM

Clearly the Soap Box is the place to go if you want to use facts and rationality to argue a case.

lmbo get off of your high horse you adolescent little shit.

8/20/2009 11:44:26 AM