One egregious example:

1.

Quote :

"The median income for a household in the county was $26,459, and the median income for a family was $33,515."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_County,_North_Carolina

2.

Quote :

". . .Halifax is one of 40 counties throughout North Carolina designated Tier 1, placing it among the state’s most impoverished regions."

http://www.rrdailyherald.com/articles/2009/03/18/news/doc49c13b060e0fd639371542.txt

3. State to intervene in Halifax schools

http://projects.newsobserver.com/under_the_dome/state_to_intervene_in_halifax_schools

4.

Quote :

"Halifax County District: Superintendent — $126,180, bonus — $5,000 Associate Superintendent — $108,744 Assistant Superintendent 1 — $98,136 Assistant Superintendent 2 — $105,012 --------------------------------------------------------------- Weldon City District: Superintendent — $103,272, bonus — $4,000 Assistant Superintendent — $78,656.40 --------------------------------------------------------------- Roanoke Rapids Graded School District: Superintendent — $93,012, bonus 10 percent based on performance Assistant Superintendent 1 — $75,700.92 Assistant Superintendent 2 — $96,696"

http://tinyurl.com/l9n4u4

9/3/2009 1:57:19 PM

Wake County:
$265,704.36 Superintendent Superintendent - 905
$121,821.00 Area Superintendent Eastern Wake County - 906
$127,671.00 Area Superintendent Southern Wake County - 906
$117,000.00 Area Superintendent Northern Wake County - 906
$123,321.00 Area Superintendent Central Wake County - 906
$116,000.04 Area Superintendent South Central Wake County - 906
$117,000.00 Area Superintendent Western Wake County - 906

9/3/2009 2:04:45 PM

^ Compared to. . .

Quote :

"The median income for a household in the county was $54,988, and the median income for a family was $67,149."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_County,_North_Carolina

9/3/2009 2:13:42 PM

is there any point to this thread?

9/3/2009 2:32:27 PM

it pays to be the boss?

9/3/2009 2:51:58 PM

Quote :

"is there any point to this thread?"

hooksaw is butt-hurt over being embarrassingly wrong in another thread.

He claimed that education administrators were in the top income percentile. A couple pages later, he retreated to "richer than the average person."

9/3/2009 2:57:55 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NisCkxU544c

9/3/2009 3:40:56 PM

^^ That's after claiming that "percentile" is just a figure of speech.

9/3/2009 3:44:52 PM

so are we trying to say that administrators of county school systems aren't deserving of higher-than-average pay? did they not work to get where they are, or are we so cynical as to believe they're all just a bunch of dumb braindead bureaucrats who majored in bureaucracy and liberal indoctrination?

answer: probably yes

9/3/2009 3:52:08 PM

It varies from county to county, but if we want to compare their salaries to what they'd be making in equivalent positions in the private sector, they're way underpaid.

9/3/2009 4:07:20 PM

Where I work I know that the president of the college is not just an administrator, but also the chief marketer of the school not only to the community, but also to contractors. This isn't exactly a very wealthy area, either.

9/3/2009 4:14:22 PM

I'm with Bowles on this one.

There's too many of them, and they are overpaid. At the university level and the grade school level.

These administrations are utterly bloated. It's a big problem, and it's taking too much money from the classroom.

9/3/2009 4:23:17 PM

Quote :

"hooksaw is butt-hurt over being embarrassingly wrong in another thread."

Boone-Tard

LOL! You wish this were the case--but it isn't.

My point was and is clear. And you and the other hyenas can't refute it.

Quote :

"Education administrators are some of the highest paid employees in the nation."

message_topic.aspx?topic=574165

^ Wow, Bridget is the voice of reason here?

And just look at the Halifax County example. The top administrator (who just resigned, BTW) makes $130K+ in a system in which only one-third of high school students are considered proficient on end-of-year tests, compared to 68 percent for the state average, and that has been taken over, in effect, by the state.

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 4:38 PM. Reason : .]

9/3/2009 4:34:05 PM

Quote :

"My point was and is clear."

you just posted some salaries.

9/3/2009 5:18:34 PM

I didn't know there was any argument from anybody that school systems have a bloated, overpaid bureaucracy at the top.

Of course, that begs the question of how you attract competent administrators to such a depressing job without throwing money at them.

9/3/2009 5:28:26 PM

Give 'em 5 grand more than a teacher. Hire old teachers. They can do the job better than anyone with a MBA.

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 5:39 PM. Reason : Besides, teacher are sick of dealing with spawn by then anyway.]

9/3/2009 5:39:03 PM

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about the MBA's. I wouldn't put one in charge of a hot dog stand unless I planned to set it on fire.

9/3/2009 5:54:42 PM

Quote :

"LOL! You wish this were the case--but it isn't. My point was and is clear. And you and the other hyenas can't refute it. "

What is your point?

People with doctorates and years of education and experience are paid more than the teachers with a bachelor’s or master’s degree?

IIRC, you were arguing in the other thread that if people are mad about CEOs of failing companies supported by the gov. making 10+ millions $$$ and bonuses, they should also be mad at public educators who make an above average income too. If this is still your position, you are pathetically far away from making this “point.”

If you have just reached the realization that people higher up on the proverbial food chain get paid more, then I congratulate you, but the rest of us realized this probably by the age of 7.

So… what is your point again?

9/3/2009 7:26:43 PM

Trollsaw what is your point. As a free-market buff do you not want to keep the best education officials in the impoverished country to make the most impact?

9/3/2009 7:43:26 PM

I'm still wondering what his point is, too.

9/4/2009 9:27:16 AM

AHA, you guys are being silly because you don't like hooksaw.

Bloated and overpaid school administrations is a big part of the reason why our schools never have any money. Wake County collects enough money in property taxes to make up for absurd salaries and unnecessary positions. My friend has a Master's degree and teaches in Wake County, and all her students have books!

She used to teach Spanish in another county in NC. She was the only Spanish teacher in the school, and she taught all the levels. Her materials? A "set" of fourteen Spanish 2 books. I can guarantee you that she worked just as hard as any administrator that county had to offer.

And it's not clear that administrators with their EdDs and PhDs really have that much to offer over someone with less formal education and more work experience. The degrees they earn lie somewhere between applied and academic...as a result, they get watered down on both ends. There's debate about exactly what it is these degrees actually qualify people to do.

[Edited on September 4, 2009 at 12:11 PM. Reason : ]

9/4/2009 12:04:45 PM

ZOMG WE HATE RICH PEOPLE FUCK THESE HIGHLY PAID SCHOOL OFFICIALS AND PRIVATE CORPORATION CEOs

WE NEED TO TAKE THEIR PAY TO SPEND IT TO PAY FOR WELFARE CHECKS AND FREE HEALTHCARE AS WELL AS ELIMINATE THEIR BONUSES!!!

I can't believe how short sighted you people are. If you really want to look at a pay discrepency why not crack the books and investigate the difference in pay between a professor of History and a professor of chemical engineer.

hur's right its SO unfair the engineering professor gets paid more. No its not unfair. The university has to pay the PhD's of engineering a more fair market value wage otherwise they would leave academia seeking higher compensation in high private industry that their degree would provide. A professor in history has very limited job potential on the contrary within private industry.

The district superintendent does not set his own salary. If you want to be mad at anyone or assign blame. Blame the school board and country officials who designate the pay for these "overly compensated" school leaders.

[Edited on September 4, 2009 at 12:16 PM. Reason : a]

9/4/2009 12:15:32 PM

^^ No one's saying that there isn't bloat in central offices.

We're saying that they, on an individual level, deserve to make significantly more than the average citizen and earn significantly less than their private sector counterparts.

But we're mostly just laughing at how seriously hurt hooksaw was over the thread that sparked this thread.

9/4/2009 1:21:44 PM

1.

Quote :

"AHA, you guys are being silly because you don't like hooksaw."

BridgetSPK

>.<

2.

Quote :

"I didn't know there was any argument from anybody that school systems have a bloated, overpaid bureaucracy at the top."

GrumpyGOP

Then you can't--or simply won't--read:

message_topic.aspx?topic=574165

Supporting evidence:

Bowles: Pay policy is too generous

http://heraldsun.southernheadlines.com/orange/10-1191507.cfm

Administrator growth outpaces teachers at UNC

http://tinyurl.com/mdno6j

3.

Quote :

"Education administrators are some of the highest paid employees in the nation."

Quote :

"My point was and is clear. And you and the other hyenas can't refute it."

hooksaw



Median personal income for the population age 25 or older.

But there is no daily outrage calling for reduction in education administrators' compensation and number of positions (other than Bowles and a few others whose asses are in a sling over it) like there is with CEOs. And the main difference in education administrators' compensation and that of CEOs is taxpayer money. The Democrats are in bed with the education unions and lobbies all across this country--and any of you with half a brain know it.

And just look at the outrageous Halifax example. The school superintendent there was being paid six figures in a system that, in effect, has been taken over by the state! Where are the calls for a pay-for-performance study, reductions, and so on?

[Edited on September 4, 2009 at 2:04 PM. Reason : ^ Blah, blah, blah. People like you are a big part of the problem with today's schools. ]

9/4/2009 1:41:05 PM

Quote :

"But we're mostly just laughing at how seriously hurt hooksaw was over the thread that sparked this thread."

I wonder if he realizes he's grasping at straws or if he seriously thinks he's stumbled upon some amazing truth...?

9/4/2009 2:15:53 PM

Does Hooksaw have anything to suggest rampant administrative bloat in our LEAs?

We all know the UNC system is bloated because we have a report from Bain, but we don't have one for our LEAs.

Also, I don't understand how comments from the President of the UNC system on bloat within that system has anything to do with our LEAs.

In other words, Hooksaw is just butt-hurt.

9/4/2009 2:30:21 PM

Quote :

"And just look at the outrageous Halifax example. The school superintendent there was being paid six figures in a system that, in effect, has been taken over by the state! Where are the calls for a pay-for-performance study, reductions, and so on? "

Quote :

"Halifax County Superintendent Resigns The troubled school system is now being run as a partnership between the county and the State Department of Education. Posted: 12:18 PM Aug 18, 2009"

http://www.witn.com/education/headlines/53573617.html

fail.


And besides, troubled counties need to pay superintendents more for the same reason high-crime areas need to pay their police chiefs more.

9/4/2009 2:42:35 PM

Hooksaw, I don't know why you're being so snappy at me. I was emphatically agreeing with you.

9/4/2009 2:56:54 PM

doesnt hooksaw work for NC State?

9/4/2009 3:24:12 PM

i think so, treetwista or woodfoot found his name i think

9/4/2009 3:28:25 PM

^^^^ I already pointed that out above--can you read?

Quote :

"And just look at the Halifax County example. The top administrator (who just resigned, BTW) makes $130K+ in a system in which only one-third of high school students are considered proficient on end-of-year tests, compared to 68 percent for the state average, and that has been taken over, in effect, by the state."

The new administrator will make close to or above six figures fin the position. What's your point?

^^^ Okay, sorry. It appeared you were making the point that no one is arguing that education administrators are highly paid and that there are too many of them. Clearly, a number of people here are arguing this very thing.

^^ and ^ Yeah, let's make it about me--again. Since none of you can refute my points.

Cleveland schools' administration payroll skewed to the top
April 04, 2009

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/04/cleveland_schools_administrati.html

[Edited on September 4, 2009 at 3:47 PM. Reason : .]

9/4/2009 3:40:23 PM

There's a geyser of cluelessness regarding K-12 education ITT.

1. The old Halifax super was pushed out by the state. The system worked. I've experienced first-hand the beginnings of a state take-over of a school; the firings begin at the top.

2. The state needs to pay big money for a new super in Halifax.

2a. All superintendents, everywhere, make six-figures, and rightfully so. They're running an organization that's responsible for thousands of employees and tens of thousands of children. Should they be making less than the GM of a Best Buy?

2b. How would you suggest that they attract talent to a poverty-stricken po-dunk district without offering big money?


The fundamental difference here is that in many CEO salaries seems to have no relation to supply and demand at all. The Halifax example demonstrates that this isn't the case in education administration; leaders that fail to produce results are fired, and pay only goes up for merit or need.


And you've still not explained to us what the point of this thread is. Apparently your point wasn't as clear as you thought it was, because everyone here is still fairly certain you're just butt-hurt over being so wrong.

9/4/2009 4:12:11 PM

Quote :

"And you've still not explained to us what the point of this thread is. Apparently your point wasn't as clear as you thought it was, because everyone here is still fairly certain you're just butt-hurt over being so wrong."

No, just you and a couple other hyenas.

9/4/2009 4:19:33 PM

his point was that he wanted to post this again in a new thread so no one would see the pwnage he was taking

9/4/2009 5:07:53 PM

^ Yet, you post no examples of this supposed "pwnage." Furthermore, at least one had the good sense to finally agree that I was correct in the thread at issue--though I needed no such confirmation to simply grasp the facts:

Quote :

"Yes, administrators are in the top quartile or even top 10% of earners."

agentlion

message_topic.aspx?topic=574165

9/4/2009 5:53:23 PM

So this is about that other thread, then?

9/4/2009 6:12:14 PM

^ Not to me. I was simply addressing a post--which should've been obvious.

Meanwhile, back on the topic. . . .

9/4/2009 7:03:35 PM

what's the topic?

[Edited on September 4, 2009 at 7:09 PM. Reason : but go ahead and address 1-2b, eh?]

9/4/2009 7:05:47 PM

^ You're an idiot. Have you ever taken even one graduate-level course in principles of K-12 education administration? No? Well, I have.

But here are the specifics.

Quote :

"There's a geyser of cluelessness regarding K-12 education ITT."

Yes, and it's coming from you--an entrenched far-left sophist who is obviously a part of the education establishment problem here in North Carolina.

Quote :

"1. The old Halifax super was pushed out by the state. The system worked. I've experienced first-hand the beginnings of a state take-over of a school; the firings begin at the top."

The fact is that Middleton quit--and it was a surprise move.

Quote :

"HALIFAX — County Schools Superintendent Geraldine Middleton dropped a bombshell at the end of Monday night’s school board meeting — she quit."

http://www.rrdailyherald.com/articles/2009/08/18/news/doc4a8b02002994d078555987.txt

And she got a much better job.

Quote :

"Middleton has accepted a position as chief area officer with the Chicago Public School System. It is the third largest school district in the United States with 408,000 students in 666 schools. In a press release, Middleton said 'Chief area officer is the equivalent of being superintendent to 30 to 40 schools within that huge district.'"

http://www.rrdailyherald.com/articles/2009/08/18/news/doc4a8b02002994d078555987.txt

Quote :

"2. The state needs to pay big money for a new super in Halifax."

So you admit that education administrators make "big money." Good--QED.

Quote :

"2a. All superintendents, everywhere, make six-figures, and rightfully so. They're running an organization that's responsible for thousands of employees and tens of thousands of children. Should they be making less than the GM of a Best Buy?"

Yes, they should make less. Best Buy is profitable, but many of the institutions in question--like Halifax County Schools--are horribly run.

Best Buy Remains Profitable
Posted: Jun 18, 2009

http://tinyurl.com/m6vdxj

Quote :

"2b. How would you suggest that they attract talent to a poverty-stricken po-dunk district without offering big money?"

Oh, so these people are in it for the money--the "big money"? I thought education was a calling.

It's "Podunk," by the way.

Quote :

"The fundamental difference here is that in many CEO salaries seems to have no relation to supply and demand at all. The Halifax example demonstrates that this isn't the case in education administration; leaders that fail to produce results are fired, and pay only goes up for merit or need."

So much idiocy in this one that it's shocking. The CEO salaries you refer to are a matter of private contracts--would you have the state negotiate them? The last statement is pure stupidity: "[L]eaders that fail to produce results are fired." Really? Prove it.

If this were actually the case, we would hardly have any problems in the school or college systems.

And in the Halifax County Schools case, you sure as hell don't know what the fuck you're talking about--the fault lies at the local level and has been festering for decades:

Our view:School board must shoulder the blame: Support solutions or step aside

http://rrdailyherald.com/articles/2009/08/24/opinion/doc4a92999b30926196743065.txt

[Edited on September 4, 2009 at 8:01 PM. Reason : .]

9/4/2009 7:51:48 PM

Quote :

"Have you ever taken even one graduate-level course in principles of K-12 education administration? No? Well, I have."

this sentence had me rolling

9/4/2009 7:56:01 PM

^ Have you? No? Then shut the fuck up.

Do you have anything to offer on the topic? No?

9/4/2009 8:02:28 PM

aren't you always pulling the "OMG LOGICAL FALLACY!!" card? then you go and post a sententious appeal to authority?

rolling over here

9/4/2009 8:11:34 PM

Quote :

"Yes, they should make less. Best Buy is profitable, but many of the institutions in question--like Halifax County Schools--are horribly run."

A public school system by definition is not supposed to be "for-profit" you moron.

Quote :

"Oh, so these people are in it for the money--the "big money"? I thought education was a calling."

Sure it is by what should i move my family to po-dunk county when i can "work in education" in somewhere more modern and urban
like Wake county.


Trollsaw is just mad he can't get a 6-figure job.

9/4/2009 8:14:42 PM

^^ My position stands on the merits. The fact that I have been educated and have experience in the area at issue simply lends support to my position.

^ NB: I never stated anything of the sort, fuckhead.



And the image you posted has nothing to do with me. But you look like a fucking mongoloid.

Meanwhile, back on the topic. . . .

9/4/2009 8:19:33 PM

At least i got the bitches and am not some old crazy cooc that shoots up Unitarian churches when not bitching at people 20 years younger than himself on a college message board.

9/4/2009 8:27:20 PM

Quote :

"Have you ever taken even one graduate-level course in principles of K-12 education administration? No? Well, I have."

Had me rolling, too.

Have you ever worked in a K-12 institution?

You're calling me a sophist when it's your college class v. my four years of teaching.

If there's a universal constant among all educators everywhere, it's that we all agree that college education classes are entirely useless, and masters in administration are worse than worthless.

Quote :

"who is obviously a part of the education establishment problem here in North Carolina"

If I could count on you not being a douche about knowing who I was, I'd sent you .pdf's of my EOC scores. Suffice it to say, I'm not part of the problem. At all.

Quote :

"The fact is that Middleton quit--and it was a surprise move."

...to people entirely clueless about how state takeovers work. Such as the local news channel, and you.

Quote :

"So you admit that education administrators make "big money." Good"

If the point of your thread was to prove that superintendents made more than the average person. Was that the point of this thread?

Quote :

"Yes, they should make less. Best Buy is profitable, but many of the institutions in question--like Halifax County Schools--are horribly run."

Look at the demographics of Halifax Co. Is the Wake Co. PD better than the NYC PD because they have a lower crime rate? Of course not.

[Edited on September 4, 2009 at 8:56 PM. Reason : ]

9/4/2009 8:55:21 PM

Fire the administrators, disband the schools, and let the teachers start and run the schools. The state can mail them tuition for every student they teach and given them a test every year to ensure standards.

9/4/2009 9:12:18 PM

I'm waiting for hooksaw to drop some more K-12-related knowledge on us.

The dude's taken a class on this stuff.

9/5/2009 3:09:20 PM

Since I work in education in Halifax County, I think I can comment on the original point of this. Middleton is overpaid, as is the Weldon Superintendent. Weldon has just at 1000 kids, while Halifax has about 4000 kids and Roanoke Rapids is over 3000 kids. At a per student average, Halifax County is paying $31.55/student for their superintendent and for all administrators about $109.52/student. In comparison Weldon is paying $103.27/student for their super, and $181.93/student in admin overhead cost. Finally Dennis is costing RR City $31/student and $88.47/student for all the top administrators. So I think some of the districts locally are blowing far too much on administrators.

Middleton was also not forced out. Here is proof from Bill Harrison:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1637745.html

She was playing both sides of the fence, talking about being committed to fixing the problems at Halifax County schools and being their long term, while at the same time dropping her resume all over the country. She got busted for being a finalist for the superintendent job in Greenville, Mississippi:

http://www.rrdailyherald.com/articles/2009/04/21/news/doc49ee2b4ee51b8653567430.txt

and pulled out only when it was published in the paper down there and picked up by somebody in Halifax County who then got it posted in the Daily Herald. After that she withdrew her name from consideration, saying her heart was in this for the long haul at Halifax County.

http://www.rrdailyherald.com/articles/2009/04/29/news/doc49f8775fbde7b732168565.txt

But in fairness to Middleton, she was not the reason that the system was in such awful shape. That distinct honor falls on the great Willie Gilchrist, who left her holding the bag when he dipped out to run Elizabeth City State University. The rampant spending, fraudulent test scores, etc. were all under his administration, yet he skated without a terse word ever being thrown his way.

I also have a problem with my superintendent taking a 10% bonus when NONE of us employees got a pay raise or adjustment up and in fact we all took a pay cut due to higher insurance premiums. The previous superintendent turned down one bonus several years ago when times were tough, and Dennis should have done the same thing. I think it reflects poorly on him as a leader when he can take a $9300 bonus, yet we had to fire all the bus drivers and make the assistants drive the buses because we didn't have the cash. He preached about doing more with less at our convocation, yet that didn't apply to his own paycheck. Guess he had to pay for that brand new Mustang GT he just bought his son who just graduated from RRHS.

[Edited on September 6, 2009 at 2:58 PM. Reason : ]

9/6/2009 2:48:16 PM

^^ Epic fail.

Completely owned by ^.

But everybody knows that Boone-Tard is nothing more than a troll who just talks out of his ass.

9/8/2009 12:30:46 PM