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GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"Again, this isn't a conflict, it's a settler-colonial relationship."


You're gonna have to show your math on that one. One side being better-funded, better-armed, and better-allied doesn't make something "not a conflict," and there's nothing in the nature of the Israel/Palestine relationship that makes it more a "settler-colonial relationship" than, say, the Chinese invasion of Tibet, Morocco's presence in Western Sahara, or Russia's incursions into Ukraine.

I just don't think that one side being more powerful than the other is relevant to the moral component of the conflict.

Quote :
"But here in the real world, Israel is our most powerful ally in the Middle East and cutting them off isn't as easy as it sounds"


Israel is not that valuable as an ally. Certainly I don't see the benefits outweighing the many, many liabilities of being their only significant friend. In fact, I'm not sure there's much value in having any significant ally in the region. There are enough countries that let us having air bases and naval docking in the region. We don't need to be hand-in-glove with anybody in the region like people seem to think we are with Israel.

For real, what does our "alliance" with Israel get us?

Now the thornier problem is the military aid money, because what we give to Israel is related to what we give to Egypt (at this point a more useful partner in the region, though a problematic one). We pull the plug on Israel but keep giving money to Egypt, that risks provoking serious trouble. We pull the plug on Egypt too, I don't even know what that means for them. Sisi isn't great. A more fundamentalist government being able to replace him would also not be great.

I know a common response is, "If we pull out of the Middle East then China will just step in!" and to that I say, good, have fun Xi, tie that particular albatross right around your neck and have fun with it.

---

A question that I haven't seen raised here (though maybe I just missed it)...the conspiratorial part of my brain wonders about the timing of this most recent dust-up. Did Netanyahu decide to let things escalate now because of his parliamentary issues, or was this in the cards going back a while - some understanding between he and Trump that Israel should play nice until and unless Biden won, in which case a shitty Mideast situation would be a nice way to derail a new administration's priorities?

I guess what it boils down to is: why now? There's no clear reason why anybody should have started poking the bear right now - if anything, with a slate of Arab countries recognizing Israel you'd think this would be a good time to play it cool. Something smells fishy, is all.

5/17/2021 8:54:58 AM

FroshKiller
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GrumpyGOP said:
Quote :
"I just don't think that one side being more powerful than the other is relevant to the moral component of the conflict."


GIGANTIC THINKING FACE EMOJI

[Edited on May 17, 2021 at 11:53 AM. Reason : attribution]

5/17/2021 11:48:51 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"You're gonna have to show your math on that one. One side being better-funded, better-armed, and better-allied doesn't make something "not a conflict," and there's nothing in the nature of the Israel/Palestine relationship that makes it more a "settler-colonial relationship" than, say, the Chinese invasion of Tibet, Morocco's presence in Western Sahara, or Russia's incursions into Ukraine."


This situation was forced upon them by a colonial power in the first place. The Zionist settlement of Palestine began in the early 20th century, under British Mandate (colony) and against the wishes of the Palestinians. This period of settlement continued until 1947, when the Jewish share of the population reached 1/3.

Al-Nakba (the Catastrophe, as it is known by Palestinians) began 72 years ago on May 15. The UN General Assembly, without consulting Palestinian Arabs, voted to partition the British colony of Palestine into two states - one Jewish and one Arab. At the time, the settlers owned 6% of the land. Resolution 181, passed through intense US pressure, awarded them 56% of Palestine. Unsurprisingly, a war broke out. After Israel won the war with the help of Western powers, 78% of Palestine belonged to them, and 750,000 Palestinians were dispossessed from their homes (70%+ of the Arab population).

The UN passed another measure, Resolution 194, in 1948, saying that all refugees should have their land and properties restored to them, but of course this was ignored by the US and Israel.

In 1967, during the Six Day War, Israel seized the remaining areas of Gaza and the West Bank, putting them under military rule. Another 300,000 refugees were created (many of whom had already been refugees in 1948).

Since then, Palestinians have been effectively imprisoned. They are not allowed to leave Gaza or the West Bank except to work in Israel. Their power and water are limited and controlled by Israel. Their imports and exports are controlled by Israel. Their life expectancy is 10 years lower. Their GDP/capita is more than 10x lower. They are regularly forced out of their homes to make way for Israeli settlers. If they resist peacefully, they're murdered by the IDF. If they resist violently (which they have a legal right to do), they're called terrorists and murdered by the IDF. There are literally separate legal systems based on nationality.

Israel is an apartheid state, it could not be more obvious. The solution is a single state with equal rights for everyone living there.

5/17/2021 11:58:10 AM

UJustWait84
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^I mean you've conveniently left out anything related to Hamas, an international militant terrorist organization that actively wants to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as possible, but that would weaken your argument, so I can see why you'd not get around to mentioning it

Oh, and GrumpyGOP, I know it's just semantics, but I never said Israel was our most important ally in the Middle East-- I just said they're the most powerful, because it's true. Their technology/weapons basically showcase our own military industrial complex, which is why we've allowed this thorny arrangement to continue as it has for the past several decades.

5/17/2021 2:49:20 PM

rwoody
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Is Hamas international? As far as Israel is concerned they're barely even national

5/17/2021 2:58:43 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"^I mean you've conveniently left out anything related to Hamas, an international militant terrorist organization that actively wants to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as possible, but that would weaken your argument, so I can see why you'd not get around to mentioning it "


I also didn't mention the Israeli terrorist organizations, Irgun and Lehi, which were active 50 years before Hamas and flawlessly integrated into the Israeli state. Hamas wasn't founded until 1987, 20 years after the remainder of Palestinian land was taken and put under Israeli military occupation and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were forced out of their homes. 20 years after the apartheid state was in full force. Hamas wouldn't exist otherwise. The apartheid state of Israeli should be destroyed, just as the apartheid state of South Africa was.

Again, you would have been making the same arguments against South African "terrorists", you dumb mother fucker.

[Edited on May 17, 2021 at 3:17 PM. Reason : .]

5/17/2021 3:07:52 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Excellent contribution, FroshKiller.

daaave, that was an excellent concise history that I definitely don't think you copy-pasted from somewhere else. What it wasn't was a cogent explanation of why this "isn't a conflict" but something else, and why that distinction matters at all. Because so far I'm not seeing it.

Quote :
"Israel is an apartheid state, it could not be more obvious. The solution is a single state with equal rights for everyone living there."


The first sentence I basically agree with. One could quibble over the definition of "apartheid" but in an informal context like this, sure.

The second sentence is idiotic. You might as well say that the solution is world peace under a council of unicorns. Nobody wants a binational single state. Even people who say they want one don't, really. At best they want a state with their side in charge. The only way such a state could be created is if it were imposed by an overwhelmingly powerful outside invader.

Even if you could will such a thing into existence over the strident objections of the majority on both sides, it would immediately blow apart at the seams, and that's without even having to get into Israel's foundational idea of a "Jewish state." Every faction's ends are mutually exclusive with all others. There is no mechanism for a liberal democracy to reconcile them and survive. Virtually everyone would have a massive incentive to try to deny rights to competing groups, and no incentive to do otherwise. You'd immediately get the exact situation we have now, except it would be more easily characterized as a "civil war."

We've seen plenty of examples of multinational states forced into existence against their will. They blow up, always and without fail, unless one side has such a massive preponderance of power that it can force the other into submission over the long term.

[Edited on May 17, 2021 at 4:42 PM. Reason : ]

5/17/2021 4:42:01 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"daaave, that was an excellent concise history that I definitely don't think you copy-pasted from somewhere else."


It's a summary of my party's newspaper with my own additions. No I can not rattle off all of those numbers off the top of my head

Quote :
"What it wasn't was a cogent explanation of why this "isn't a conflict" but something else, and why that distinction matters at all. Because so far I'm not seeing it."


The implication behind the word "conflict" is an equal or semi-equal balance of struggle - at least that's how I perceive its use in this context by mainstream media. That's why I don't like the term and push more specific verbiage like settler colonialism or apartheid.

As far as the rest of your post, I don't agree that it's impossible. Difficult, yes. But again, I don't see any other solution. The territory has already been fractured to a point where a two-state solution is impossible.

5/17/2021 5:07:22 PM

JesusHChrist
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This thread is exhausting. Every couple of years, the same nation performs the same brutal act of "cutting the grass" against its colonial subjects, and the same people on this board trot out convenient contortions of logic in order to launder an obvious ethnic cleansing as some sort of "dispute" between competing and equally armed hostile forces. An entire group of people are being subjugated and wiped off the map on the basis of ethnicity via indiscriminate aerial bombardments in order to expand the geographic footprint of their (whiter) colonial occupiers, and the same group of people on this board come around just to chastise the victims for daring to challenge their oppressors. It is a very disgusting and dishonest intellectual exercise with the implicit goal of laundering a hostile aggression and rebranding it as a form of self defense. It's really gross.

It's just...groundhog day. Every couple of years. The exact same scenario plays out. Some minor infraction is levied against an occupied people, and the occupying nation uses that infraction as a pretense to collective assault an entire region in order to expand its borders and punish ethnic minorities domestically.

Then the same arguments get rolled out. Even as one state expands its footprint, increases its disproportionate use of force, and shows no good faith effort to allow their subjects any form of sovereignty over their own land and resources or inclusion and full citizenship within its broader borders, the same people come around to put the burden of the oppressed to demand their humanity in a manner that doesn't upset its colonial occupier.

And of course, it is these same people who make parallel arguments in the US that minority groups should "protest the right way" when dealing with issues of police violence or systemic racism. Yet they never connect the obvious dots that would illuminate a subconscious bias in their reasoning: That the use of force by a powerful (usually whiter) actor against an oppressed (usually darker) victim is always viewed as self defense and necessary, while any act of resistance of that occupation is always viewed as a hostile act that shan't be tolerated and must be put down. And yet these people go to great lengths to affirm that they would have opposed historic analogues like Apartheid South Africa or the Jim Crow Era, even though they are bending over backwards to excuse this current behavior.

It's just....tiring


[Edited on May 17, 2021 at 8:57 PM. Reason : ]

5/17/2021 8:41:00 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"But again, I don't see any other solution. The territory has already been fractured to a point where a two-state solution is impossible."


"The two sides are so divided that they can't live separately, so let's try making them live together." That's basically the thinking here.

It's also worth noting that this is an outcome that can only be achieved (to the extent that it can be at all) by the destruction of the state of Israel. I get that we're all pissed off by Israel right now but consigning a country to the dustbin of history is not a small matter, nor is it something that Israel would voluntarily submit to. If you want a unified Israel/Palestine, it can only be accomplished by invading and subjugating Israel.

As to solutions, there aren't any. Not really. Israel could pull back to the 1947 borders and make all manner of other concessions and it wouldn't satisfy many Palestinians, particularly Hamas, whose hold on power and relevance is based on conflict with Israel. They'd still be blowing things up and otherwise doing everything in their power to elicit an Israeli military response so they can clothe themselves in Zionist oppression for international sympathy and domestic support. This is why divestment and isolating Israel won't really work to achieve change in the conflict, though it would at least get us out of our role as flak jacket for Israel's bullshit and so I generally support the move.

The Palestinians could cede East Jerusalem and cease all attacks, and Israeli fundamentalist settlers would just keep pushing into new areas. It's clear that a sizable and politically powerful minority of Israelis won't be satisfied until they've taken the whole thing, which makes sense for religious, historical, and strategic reasons (the Jordan River is the logical eastern border for a country). Unfortunately "that makes sense" and "that's fucking horrible" sometimes overlap, as here. It makes it that much harder to disincentivize expansion into the West Bank.

Which brings us to the only real solution, which is also unthinkable for a whole host of reasons: the military defeat of Israel. Leaving to one side the moral considerations, it's just impossible in practical terms. Even without our support, Israel can probably take on the Arab powers. No Western powers would do it because of domestic pro-Israel political considerations (mostly a U.S. concern) and because of the optics of trying to destroy the Jewish state. I guess China could, if they cooperated with the Arabs, but no matter how pissed off we are at the Israeli government nobody is going to allow China to militarily dominate the Middle East. To say nothing of the fact that even if one of these outlandish options were to be attempted, the result would be the deployment of Israel's nuclear arsenal. So like I said, unthinkable.

Long term, maybe things change. Maybe Israeli politics finally start trending to the left as religious fanaticism declines in the face of modernity and the spectre of being "driven into the sea" seems less and less plausible. Maybe the Palestinians develop some asymmetrical warfare capabilities that make Israeli incursions too costly. But for now, things lurch along as they have for the last forty years or so.

5/18/2021 9:16:26 AM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"The two sides are so divided that they can't live separately, so let's try making them live together."


That's not what he meant.

Quote :
"It's also worth noting that this is an outcome that can only be achieved (to the extent that it can be at all) by the destruction of the state of Israel"


Also not what he meant.

If Israel wants to be a democracy, then it must give up the pretense of being a land exclusively and only for the jewish people and be committed to being a secular democracy with equal rights and protections for all. Otherwise, it will remain what it currently is, an apartheid state that brutally oppresses its colonial subjects while disenfranchising and subjugating its minority citizens to permanent second class citizenship. It has to pick one.

5/18/2021 12:35:08 PM

daaave
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^^^
Well said. The tide does seem to be turning though. Thousands to tens of thousands of protestors in cities all across the US. Congressmembers calling it apartheid. This wouldn't have happened 5 years ago. Israel has created an untenable situation and contradictions will only sharpen as they invite more people in through birthright and force Palestinians into smaller and smaller chunks of land.

[Edited on May 18, 2021 at 1:52 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2021 1:47:49 PM

UJustWait84
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^ unfortunately, this all just sounds more like wishful thinking on your part than actual groundswell that's going to lead any meaningful change-- at least any time soon. I think younger, left leaning Americans are getting really tired (many of us have been for years) of this same old story playing out between Israel and Hamas (who you keep refusing to acknowledge, but OK...), and it's becoming increasingly clear that Israel's government has basically had carte blanche to get away with it-- especially during the past four years. If you're pissed at Biden's inaction and "quiet diplomacy", maybe you should consider the fact that Trump/Kushner basically set this whole thing up, and the shellacking of Gaza would be even worse right now than it has been.

Like it or not, American public support for Israel, deservedly or not, remains ridiculously high:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-americans-support-for-israel-still-high-approval-for-pa-rises/


So other than internet handwringing and people sharing #freePalestine #freeGaza #endIsraeliapatheid etc, I'd expect people to resume not really giving a fuck once another "ceasefire" happens.

Quote :
"Is Hamas international? As far as Israel is concerned they're barely even national"


Like many militant extremist organizations, they don't just operate in the confines of Gaza and have financial support from other countries like Turkey and Qatar.



[Edited on May 18, 2021 at 4:44 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2021 4:23:06 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"Also not what he meant.

If Israel wants to be a democracy, then it must give up the pretense of being a land exclusively and only for the jewish people and be committed to being a secular democracy with equal rights and protections for all"


And this is why I'm saying that if you want such a democracy there you'll have to destroy Israel, which is, foundationally and definitionally, a Jewish state.

5/18/2021 8:53:13 PM

JesusHChrist
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Then you are in favor of apartheid.

Please defend why you feel the continued subjugation and oppression of a stateless and rightless people is necessary to maintain the current State of Israel

A land reserved for only one group of people can only exist within the violent framework of colonialism and ethnic/religious supremacy that underwrites it. Apartheid is the current solution to the Palestinian question. Genocide is the next. So please explain why you are not vociferously opposed to this.

It's a simple question. How can, as you say, a state that is "foundationally and definitionally" reserved for one class of people exist without systematically eliminating and subjugating all other classes?



[Edited on May 18, 2021 at 9:40 PM. Reason : ]

5/18/2021 9:27:29 PM

UJustWait84
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Quote :
"Then you are in favor of apartheid.

Please defend why you feel the continued subjugation and oppression of a stateless and rightless people is necessary to maintain the current State of Israel

A land reserved for only one group of people can only exist within the violent framework of colonialism and ethnic/religious supremacy that underwrites it. Apartheid is the current solution to the Palestinian question. Genocide is the next. So please explain why you are not vociferously opposed to this.

It's a simple question. How can, as you say, a state that is "foundationally and definitionally" reserved for one class of people exist without systematically eliminating and subjugating all other classes?"


Uh. I don't think stating the obvious- Israel's corrupt and abusive government is wrong and they make for a shitty ally- equates to= I favor an apartheid system- Yay Bibi and fuck the Arabs!

The problem that you and daave keep ignoring is that it's not just some peaceful resistance taking place against an imperialist/colonialist and oversized bully, it's the fact that Hamas actually does want to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as possible, which, I'm sorry, is NOT a good thing! The colonizer/apartheid tropes are cute in a 2021 context, but this situation doesn't have an exact historical equivalent, given the fact that...um... the fucking Holocaust is what preceded it.

FFS I quoted Chomsky in the other thread, and I'm far from an Israel supporter/apologist (dig through this very thread if you want for my previous posts), but y'all are acting as if a one state solution is an quick and easy fix, when in actually, a 2-3 state solution would actually be a lot more fucking pragmatic given how little these folks seem to like each other.

I don't think most reasonable Palestinians, either living in Gaza/West Bank/Israel want to completely exterminate the Jews and turn the entire region into an Allah loving Jew-less state, but that pesky Hamas minority that keeps shooting all of those mediocre..I mean...'harmless' rockets, while building tunnels and still managing to hurt/kill a not so insignificant number of Israeli civilians is a big fucking problem. Well, to me it is- at least if you're ideologically consistent and abhor ANY kind of violence-- not just the violence that is perpetuated against the team happen you like. But daave is a radical leftist that probably doesn't care if the local businesses in his city burn and are looted after he shows up for a 'peaceful' protest and goes home to tweet about it to his super woke friends about what a difference he's made in the world.

Based on the latest news blurbs I've seen, it does appear that Biden and co. are the very least aware of the bad optics of Israel's blatant overkill, which may very well lead to us rightfully yanking free war money- hooray!

But I think you're misconstruing and attacking people that are simply saying: "yeah, this fucking sucks, but sorry, no solution to make everyone happy exists", and unless something drastic happens, it's going to flare off and on. Like herpes, if you will.

5/19/2021 1:14:48 AM

JesusHChrist
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You need to stop drinking

5/19/2021 2:04:41 AM

UJustWait84
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Given how miserable/delusional you are, you might as well join me

5/19/2021 2:34:30 AM

StTexan
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Quote :
" Please defend why you feel the continued subjugation and oppression of a stateless and rightless people isn’t necessary to maintain the current State of Israel"

5/19/2021 3:20:43 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"Then you are in favor of apartheid."


I'm not, though.

1) I don't particularly care if Israel is a Jewish state or not. What I'm telling you is that Israel is a Jewish state - that is how it was conceived of originally and how it conceives of itself now, and it will not voluntarily abandon that status any more than the United States would say, "Actually we'd like to be a constitutional monarchy under Elizabeth II."
2) I'm saying that a multi-state solution is the only remotely plausible one. Creating a Palestinian state (or states) alongside Israel is not apartheid. The current arrangement is much more like that deplorable system than a two state solution would be.
3) I don't think "continued subjugation and oppression of a stateless people is necessary to maintain the current State of Israel." I think the Palestinians should have a state. I do think that if the Palestinians are all in the same state as the Jews then that state won't be Israel, which is fine, but I expect the Israelis would have something to say about it.

Quote :
"A land reserved for only one group of people can only exist within the violent framework of colonialism and ethnic/religious supremacy that underwrites it."


Japan is reserved for the Japanese. WHERE IS YOUR OUTRAGE AGAINST THE EMPEROR?

Quote :
"How can, as you say, a state that is "foundationally and definitionally" reserved for one class of people exist without systematically eliminating and subjugating all other classes?"


I freely admit that the Jewish State of Israel came into existence through the forcible removal of other groups, much as other ethnic states came into being by expelling, eliminating, or assimilating other groups. They just had the decency to do it long enough ago that it's purely historical. Point is, the "essential" subjugation is over and done with. What we have now is superfluous to the goal of establishing or maintaining a Jewish State as such. It's expansionist and, I would argue, counterproductive.

The goal of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine was not great. It was perhaps understandable in the context of the time but most of the consequences were obvious and they were bad. Now, though, it's a fait accompli. A Jewish State exists. The majority of its population would not consent to it becoming another kind of state. The centers of power in Israel are not going to consent to dramatically reducing their influence for the benefit of anybody else, least of all a longstanding enemy. There are not normative statements, they are facts. In the face of such facts, I say again: if your goal is a single, binational state, then you are going to have to overpower and destroy the existing state, and you can't. That's why all dreams of a single-state solution are pointless and ill-conceived even by the standards of Mideast peace ideas.

5/19/2021 9:20:31 AM

rwoody
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"Japan is reserved for the Japanese"


This isn't true though is it? at least not if you mean ethnicity rather than nationality.

5/19/2021 10:24:58 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"2) I'm saying that a multi-state solution is the only remotely plausible one. Creating a Palestinian state (or states) alongside Israel is not apartheid. The current arrangement is much more like that deplorable system than a two state solution would be."


The West Bank is completely riddled with Israeli settlements. How would a multi-state solution be possible?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg

Quote :
"I freely admit that the Jewish State of Israel came into existence through the forcible removal of other groups, much as other ethnic states came into being by expelling, eliminating, or assimilating other groups. They just had the decency to do it long enough ago that it's purely historical. Point is, the "essential" subjugation is over and done with. What we have now is superfluous to the goal of establishing or maintaining a Jewish State as such. It's expansionist and, I would argue, counterproductive."


There are still people alive who had their homes stolen originally in 1948 and 1967. It's far from historical. Israel won't be finished until they take all of the West Bank and probably Gaza. It's genocide.

Quote :
"Japan is reserved for the Japanese. WHERE IS YOUR OUTRAGE AGAINST THE EMPEROR?"


Bro

[Edited on May 19, 2021 at 11:03 AM. Reason : .]

5/19/2021 10:47:53 AM

Bullet
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Editorial:

https://www.wral.com/kushner-s-absurd-peace-plan-has-failed/19683199/

5/19/2021 11:37:45 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"Before Trump, it was common to say that the occupation would eventually force Israel to choose between being a Jewish state and a democratic one. During the Trump years, Israel’s choice became undeniable.

Israel’s 2018 “nation-state law” enshrined “Jewish settlement as a national value” and undermined the legal equality of Israel’s Arab citizens. As settlements expanded, a two-state solution turned from a distant dream into a fantasy.

The death of a two-state framework, Baconi said, has strengthened a sense of common destiny between Palestinians in the occupied territories and Arab-Israelis, or, as many refer to themselves, Palestinian citizens of Israel. “The more that we see Israel-Palestine as a one-state reality, where Jews have full rights and Palestinians have different tiers of rights,” the more Palestinians will “understand their struggle as a shared struggle,” he said."


even liberal NYT columnists are saying it

5/19/2021 12:08:17 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"I don't particularly care if Israel is a Jewish state or not. What I'm telling you is that Israel is a Jewish state - that is how it was conceived of originally and how it conceives of itself now, and it will not voluntarily abandon that status any more than the United States would say, "Actually we'd like to be a constitutional monarchy under Elizabeth II.""


No, a better analogy would be to say that the US was conceived as a "Christian Nation" and therefore all non-Christians should be expelled, which is what some on the radical Christian-right would like to have codified. Another similar interpretation would be that many powerful actors believed that the United States was founded as a slave state, which was an actual position that was held that required actual armed conflict to resolve. You are making this ridiculous notion that the US would voluntarily revert to rule under the monarchy because it frees you of the responsibility to think through the actual politics.

Quote :
"2) I'm saying that a multi-state solution is the only remotely plausible one."


Except it isn't, and anybody who has viewed a map can tell you that. This is why the term "settler-colonialism" is apt and used to describe how land is being stolen. There are "SETTLERS" who are "COLONIZING" chunks of land that make the drawing of a contiguous border impossible.

Quote :
" I think the Palestinians should have a state. I do think that if the Palestinians are all in the same state as the Jews then that state won't be Israel, which is fine, but I expect the Israelis would have something to say about it."


How can the Palestinians have their own state without forcibly removing them, or eliminating them? Any solution that requires boundaries being forcibly upheld along the lines of religious affiliation and/or race requires the use of force and expulsion/elimination of undesirables. This is a recipe that naturally leads to genocide everytime. And if you believe that a transformation of the current state to a pluralist society with equal rights for all would fundamentally "destroy" the current state of Israel, then you are admitting two key items that you need to reconcile:
A) That the subjugation of undesirables is ingrained into the DNA of the current State, and therefore a requirement for that State to continue
B) Incremental change and transformational politics is impossible, and therefore those who are oppressed should never appeal to peaceful or political methods to create their liberation. This may be true, but I really doubt you are willing to apply that same logic to...oh, I don't know.....Black Lives Matter.

Quote :
"Japan is reserved for the Japanese. WHERE IS YOUR OUTRAGE AGAINST THE EMPEROR?"


Idiot

5/19/2021 12:49:59 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"This isn't true though is it? at least not if you mean ethnicity"


The population of Japan is something like 98% ethnic Japanese, which makes it way more an ethnic state than Israel is. Both countries have a mechanism for people of other ethnicities to become naturalized citizens, but they're rarely used. So neither is a strict, de jure ethnic state, but in practice they are. This is something we tend to take for granted for Asian countries in a way we don't for "white" ones.

The only point here is that having a territory occupied primarily or exclusively by one group is not an evil unto itself and does not require an ongoing "framework of colonialism and ethnic/religious supremacy."

Quote :
"The West Bank is completely riddled with Israeli settlements. How would a multi-state solution be possible?"


By dragging people out of the settlements and back into Israel. A tall order, but not impossible. Besides, you'd have to do it under a one-state solution as well. It'd be the first thing that the Palestinian citizens of the country would demand.

Quote :
"There are still people alive who had their homes stolen originally in 1948 and 1967. It's far from historical."


Yeah...I know...that's why I said the other ethnic states had the decency to do their bad shit a long time ago.

5/19/2021 1:01:40 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"No, a better analogy would be to say that the US was conceived as a "Christian Nation" and therefore all non-Christians should be expelled, which is what some on the radical Christian-right would like to have codified. Another similar interpretation would be that many powerful actors believed that the United States was founded as a slave state, which was an actual position that was held that required actual armed conflict to resolve. You are making this ridiculous notion that the US would voluntarily revert to rule under the monarchy because it frees you of the responsibility to think through the actual politics."


So you're focused on the least important part of what I said, and do nothing to address the fact that Israel is probably gonna be reluctant to move away from the logic that underpinned its creation and existence up until this point.

Quote :
"How can the Palestinians have their own state without forcibly removing them, or eliminating them? Any solution that requires boundaries being forcibly upheld along the lines of religious affiliation and/or race requires the use of force and expulsion/elimination of undesirables."


Some people might have to be moved, as I've already suggested about the settlements. It's not a requirement, though. You could draw borders that create a comfortably Jewish-majority state alongside a firmly Arab-majority one, and give minority populations in both areas the option to move or stay. Israel manages to function as a Jewish State with a population that's 20% Arab with representation in government.

Quote :
"if you believe that a transformation of the current state to a pluralist society with equal rights for all would fundamentally "destroy" the current state of Israel"


I'm not saying pluralism and equal rights would destroy Israel. With enough imagination we can conceive of an Israel that undergoes significant changes, similar to what the United States has done with regard to race issues since it became independent. And in the course of those changes, perhaps it will move away from the notion of a "Jewish State," and embrace the notion of a single state. Implementing this dream would require similar changes within the Palestinian population at the same time, and the notion that both sides will row in the same direction long enough to found that state is another reason I don't consider it to be a viable outcome.

What would require the destruction of the current state would be the creation of a single pluralistic state with equal rights for all in the near- or mid-term, because the existing powers are not going to relinquish control voluntarily. A two-state solution is more plausible if only because it allows the existing powers to remain in place. When the proposed resolution poses an existential threat, nobody is going to go for it. When the proposed resolution is merely unpalatable, you have options to compel people to accept.

5/19/2021 1:32:12 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Israel manages to function as a Jewish State with a population that's 20% Arab with representation in government."


Yes, via methods of apartheid and subjugation. This is the problem

5/19/2021 1:43:23 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Arab Israelis have citizenship, the vote, and representation in the Knesset. They have to deal with a lot of shit, and Israel's incorporation of these people could be improved, but it isn't apartheid.

5/19/2021 2:15:03 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"They have to deal with a lot of shit, and Israel's incorporation of these people could be improved, but it isn't apartheid."


literally using "these" people to argue against the existence of structural inequality.

Fucking brilliant

Seems a bit odd that full citizens need to somehow be better "incorporated" into a country that they supposedly have full rights within, but go off

And all of this is to say nothing of the Palestinians who are not allowed to leave Gaza or the West Bank, but are only permitted to work within Israel after undergoing dehumanizing security measures at check points, etc

[Edited on May 19, 2021 at 2:27 PM. Reason : ]

5/19/2021 2:21:35 PM

daaave
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Palestinians living in Israel are very much second class citizens.

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/11/702264118/netanyahu-says-israel-is-nation-state-of-the-jewish-people-and-them-alone

Quote :
"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is drawing criticism for saying that Israel is "the national state, not of all its citizens, but only of the Jewish people.""


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Legal_and_political_status

Then there's the whole pogrom thing happening right now where mobs of Israeli Jews are attacking Arabs.

5/19/2021 2:34:21 PM

JesusHChrist
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yes but if you just ignore all of that then the country is doing just fine

5/19/2021 2:59:05 PM

JesusHChrist
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why go through the exercise of examining how a nation can maintain ethnic and religious purity as their explicit aim when you could just simply not think about it?

5/19/2021 3:00:32 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"literally using "these" people to argue against the existence of structural inequality."


Are we talking about structural inequality or are we talking about apartheid? Because they're not the same fucking thing. Israeli Arabs suffer structural inequality, yes. They suffer from discrimination. They don't suffer apartheid, if that word is to mean anything.

Quote :
"Seems a bit odd that full citizens need to somehow be better "incorporated" into a country that they supposedly have full rights within"


That's a state of affairs that's hardly unique to Israel. Blacks supposedly have full equal rights in the United States but I think we'd all agree that (a) this country could do a better job of realizing that equality in practice, and (b) the United States does not have an apartheid system.

Quote :
"And all of this is to say nothing of the Palestinians who are not allowed to leave Gaza or the West Bank, but are only permitted to work within Israel after undergoing dehumanizing security measures at check points, etc"


This, this is starting to look like apartheid. It is a different thing.

Quote :
"why go through the exercise of examining how a nation can maintain ethnic and religious purity as their explicit aim when you could just simply not think about it?"


What exactly am I to think about? We're just going around in circles here. You seem to think that I don't get the problems with an ethnic/religious state. But I do get it. The question is, so the fuck what? Israel is what it is and no amount of you saying how bad it is will change that.

5/19/2021 6:01:31 PM

0EPII1
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The genocidal maniacs bomb medical facility 3D-printing emergency medical equipment, something extremely crucial in a place like Gaza that is blockaded from the air and sea.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3xnp4/israel-bombs-emergency-medical-equipment-3d-printing-facility-in-gaza

Self defense! Fucking barbarians.

5/19/2021 6:03:45 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Are we talking about structural inequality or are we talking about apartheid? Because they're not the same fucking thing. Israeli Arabs suffer structural inequality, yes. They suffer from discrimination. They don't suffer apartheid, if that word is to mean anything."


I'm really not interested in this discussion, because we both are in agreement that the treatment of stateless Palestinians is apartheid:

Quote :
"This, this is starting to look like apartheid. It is a different thing."


What I AM interested in discussing is how a state that is reserved for one ethnic/religious group maintains that distinction. You are very reluctant to answer this question, and instead throw your hands up and say, "there's nothing I can do." Even if we were to assume that you are completely powerless, I find it odd that you jump over so many hurdles to legitimize, rationalize, and downplay what amounts to an ethnic cleansing being carried out by a settler colonial state.

You seem to be stuck in a very unfavorable position of both wanting to admit that Israel is engaging in gross crimes against humanity, but seem committed to distorting the classification as something less than an ethnic cleansing. I don't understand this impulse you seem to have.

But then again, when it comes to domestic affairs with regards to race and state violence against oppressed minorities, you engage in the exact same behavior, so your position is not exactly surprising.

Because at the end of the day, when pressed firmly against injustices carried out by the state (any state) against oppressed minorities, your attitude ultimately amounts to:

Quote :
"so the fuck what?"

5/19/2021 7:14:21 PM

moron
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https://twitter.com/obeysyed/status/1394341672012685312?s=21

We already knew the Palestinians have it way worse than the Israelis but It’s interesting how Snapchat can show you snapshots of these people’s lives.

5/19/2021 11:22:56 PM

0EPII1
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Gaza Physician: Israel Is Targeting Doctors & Health Facilities to Overwhelm Our Crumbling System
https://www.democracynow.org/2021/5/18/israeli_airstrikes_gaza_hospitals_clinics

Amira Hass: Israeli Bombs Are Wiping Out Entire Palestinian Families. It’s No Accident.
https://www.democracynow.org/2021/5/19/palestinian_families_killed_gaza


And then some people here have the nerve to throw a hissy fit if you call them "Zionazis".

5/20/2021 12:49:43 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"What I AM interested in discussing is how a state that is reserved for one ethnic/religious group maintains that distinction."


As long as the ethnic group in question retains an insurmountable majority, they can have what amounts to an ethnic state and a full democracy with equal rights. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but problems can arise with how that majority is maintained.

Sometimes it's as easy as "not many people are trying to move there," which absolves the country in question of having to take any nasty steps. Again we can look at Japan, a functioning democracy that has a state that's way more Japanese than Israel is Jewish. People are technically able to become naturalized Japanese citizens but very few do.

Other countries set up strict immigration and residency rules, where you can move to and live in a place but not own property or become a full citizen unless you have ancestry there or meet similar conditions. This is clearly more restrictive, but for the most part we don't get upset about this either. Moving to these places is generally something you'd do voluntarily, accepting restrictions which were often put in place to prevent (re)colonization. Fair enough. I'm more of an open borders guy myself but I get it.

Then you get to the United States, which is a clusterfuck of mostly bad policies designed in part to keep another ethnic group from challenging the white majority. In theory I accept the right of a country to control its immigration policies but the practice of how we do it is morally unsupportable.

And lastly we come to Israel which, not content with preventing immigration, is taking land from other people and throwing them off of it. Which obviously we all agree is bad.

The point is that it's possible to have a state dominated by one ethnicity without having "apartheid." Having such a state be the overt goal is a little outdated, a little uncomfortable, but it does not necessitate apartheid, unless the majority is challenged and the goal does not change.

I'm all for changing the goal. I don't think a Jewish State is necessary for the survival or prosperity of Jewish people. But there's no getting around the fact that the goal of maintaining a Jewish State currently animates Israel. My position is that this fact cannot plausibly be changed by outside forces, but the nature of the relationship between Israel and the currently stateless Palestinians can.

Quote :
"But then again, when it comes to domestic affairs with regards to race and state violence against oppressed minorities, you engage in the exact same behavior"


I do?

Quote :
"so the fuck what?"


Certainly this is my response when you give a long list of complaints but no plausible way to do anything about them. Empty whines are meaningless and so are fantasies based on completely rewiring human nature with unicorn hair and rainbows. We generally want to fix the same problems. I just want to use a toolkit that involves reality.

5/20/2021 10:06:12 AM

UJustWait84
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https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9893250/

5/20/2021 12:30:09 PM

rwoody
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Is it OK to bring back this format


Ah! Headline says Natanyahus run as PM is over, thats great! A chance for a less militaristic Israel, now let me just take a big sup of coffee and read about the new guy!

6/2/2021 4:37:48 PM

UJustWait84
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57492745

Quote :
"
Israel strikes in Gaza after arson balloon launched
It is the first major flare-up since the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in May.
"


Herpes metaphor was spot on.

6/15/2021 10:30:22 PM

The Coz
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Got to show 'em they mean business!

6/16/2021 7:07:04 AM

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