http://cbs2chicago.com/local/mchenry.contempt.court.2.1288146.html

Quote :

"If you flip someone off in traffic, you might get angry stares or a nasty honk of the car horn, but if you do it in court, expect much more severe consequences. A McHenry County man found that out the hard way. Kane Kellett, 24, raised his middle finger while he was being sworn in to face home invasion charges at a rights hearing, the Daily Herald reported. He also hurled profanity at Judge G. Martin Zopp. Zopp promptly gave Kellett six months in jail for contempt of court. Kellett was wanted on charges of aggravated battery and assault. He is accused of attacking two people, including a pregnant woman last month in Crystal Lake, Deputy Police Chief Dennis Harris told CBS 2. He is accused of punching the woman in the face and kicking her in the ribs after she fell on Oct. 13. He is also charged with a home invasion on Oct. 14, in which he forced his way in by kicking down a door to a multi-family home in Crystal Lake, battered a resident with a flashlight, and fled once police were called, Harris said. Kellett was on the McHenry County Sheriff's Top 10 Most Wanted List and was described as "armed and dangerous" before he was arrested Friday night."

I understand that this is pretty standard treatment for "contempt of court." I view judges in the same way I view police officers, elected officials, the President, or the Pope. I don't respect them more than anyone else I would meet on the street. They haven't done anything to deserve reverence, and in many cases, they've done the opposite.

So, why is then okay to imprison someone for an additional 6 months for flipping a judge off? The judge has the power to simply hand down an additional sentence, and he takes advantage of that. It's basically treated like another crime, except the crime doesn't actually hurt anyone, barring the judge's "feelings." And, in this case, there is no due process. The judge just tacks on 6 months. He should have just kicked the guy out of the court.

Does the punishment really fit the crime, here? Am I the only one that has a problem with this? I think the judge is guilty of going on a power trip, which is a much more egregious offensive than raising a middle finger in the direction of another person.

11/3/2009 12:18:25 PM

[Edited on November 3, 2009 at 12:30 PM. Reason : I don't know, whatever]

11/3/2009 12:25:57 PM

Quote :

"I understand that this is pretty standard treatment for "contempt of court." I view judges in the same way I view police officers, elected officials, the President, or the Pope. I don't respect them more than anyone else I would meet on the street. They haven't done anything to deserve reverence, and in many cases, they've done the opposite."

I man that convinced millions of Americans to vote for him, twice, doesn't deserve more respect then flailing land whale in a Wendy's line?

11/3/2009 12:48:54 PM

Depends on what he said. "Hurling profanity" is pretty ambiguous. Did he threaten him? Verbally assault him? Who knows...

** Looks like when he was asked if he an attorney he said, "Fuck NO!" The judge ignored what he said and asked him to swear in and he flipped him off. Dude had it coming IMO... Was pretty clearly in contempt of court. Probably didn't warrant a 6-month jail sentence but I hardly feel bad for him.

[Edited on November 3, 2009 at 1:14 PM. Reason : x]

11/3/2009 1:10:58 PM

^^The person that convinced millions of people to vote for him, twice, most likely did so by either promising free stuff, promising to kill sum-uh-dem-a-rabs, or vowing to do something wholly unconstitutional. Becoming President is about concealing your true beliefs from the public, having a ton of money, connections with powerful people, and a relatively clean (or unknown) record. In no way should the President be put on a pedastal, and the same goes for judges.

The person in the Wendy's line hasn't done anything to me. They're probably minding their own business. I have no reason to respect them or disrespect them. They haven't trampled anyone's rights to get to where they are, that I know of. But, like the President, they're not deserving of any sort of praise or reverence. I don't get punished especially harshly if I flip them off.

^If he threatened the judge, that's one thing. I think it should be dealt with like threatening anyone would be dealt with though. Due process and all of that. Not the judge picking an arbitrary sentence in a snap decision.

[Edited on November 3, 2009 at 1:16 PM. Reason : ]

11/3/2009 1:14:35 PM

Quote :

"I man that convinced millions of Americans to vote for him, twice, doesn't deserve more respect then flailing land whale in a Wendy's line?"

I suppose it's possible to be successful in a bad way, i.e. lying and doing deals under the table for your own benefit, landing you on the top. There's validity to that viewpoint.

I think your viewpoint would be better presented to say that those in powerful positions are individuals to be reckoned with. They have demonstrated themselves to be capable (for better or for worse). However, d357r0y3r should still be able to disrespect them and hold them in contempt. Those who do so in real life obviously risk consequences (see protagonist of the story).

11/3/2009 1:15:05 PM

The supreme court already ruled that the middle finger is protected under the first ammendment, and thus flipping off cops is legal. I don't see how the judge is different.

11/3/2009 1:28:49 PM

Flip off the judge on the street all you want to.

Flip him off when he's sitting on the bench, and you're flipping off the court. It's a different story.




Same way that you can free speech all you want on a street corner, but you can't blab away inside the courtroom.

11/3/2009 1:39:09 PM

Quote :

"I suppose it's possible to be successful in a bad way, i.e. lying and doing deals under the table for your own benefit, landing you on the top. There's validity to that viewpoint. "

Successful? What are you even talking about.

The original poster makes no differentiation between an obvious waste and someone who has most obviously accomplished a great deal. If he's that moronic, then there's no real validity to the premise of his entire argument. A police officer has, in his eyes, the same level of respect as a crackhead. That he doesn't understand the term contempt of court isn't a surprise then.

11/3/2009 1:48:45 PM

Definitely contempt of court which is deserving of punishment. Six months is way too harsh though.

11/3/2009 1:48:56 PM

Quote :

"And, in this case, there is no due process. The judge just tacks on 6 months. He should have just kicked the guy out of the court."

Can't tell the due process to go fuck itself and then whine about how you didn't get due process. If you want due process, you go though the process. But the constitution guarantees everyone a speedy trial, so if you want to waste the court's time, they'll throw you in jail until you're ready to stop wasting time. Seems like a perfectly reasonable decision to me.

11/3/2009 1:49:38 PM

In traffic court one time, a guy was there for a minor drug possession charge and muttered under his breath, but so that enough people could hear him, "this is bullshit" and the judge charged him an extra fine or something. And I don't really have a problem with judges doing it, as long as it's not egregious (and in this case, it's not).

Part of what differentiates the US (or any first-world country) from 3rd world countries is that people for the most part respect the laws, it helps to keep corruption minimized. People should have respect for our laws and our legal systems, because, among other things, our gov and our legal system has probably done as much to protect our freedoms as the military. If a cop or a judge or someone is being a douche bag and is corrupt, then no amount of respect towards them is going to make a difference so you may as well go down fighting, but for the most part, these are decent people doing good work.

11/3/2009 1:51:32 PM

Why don't we go ahead and look at who destroyer (spelled with numbers, L337) is white knighting:

Quote :

"He is accused of punching the woman in the face and kicking her in the ribs after she fell on Oct. 13. He is also charged with a home invasion on Oct. 14, in which he forced his way in by kicking down a door to a multi-family home in Crystal Lake, battered a resident with a flashlight, and fled once police were called, Harris said. Kellett was on the McHenry County Sheriff's Top 10 Most Wanted List and was described as "armed and dangerous" before he was arrested Friday night."

I'm sure it was just a misunderstanding on the Judge's part.

11/3/2009 1:59:49 PM

Quote :

"Flip him off when he's sitting on the bench, and you're flipping off the court. It's a different story."

What does it mean to flip off the court? Whose rights are being violated there? What harm is being done? How does flipping off the court warrant 6 months in jail?

Quote :

"The original poster makes no differentiation between an obvious waste and someone who has most obviously accomplished a great deal. If he's that moronic, then there's no real validity to the premise of his entire argument. A police officer has, in his eyes, the same level of respect as a crackhead. That he doesn't understand the term contempt of court isn't a surprise then. "

It's not that I don't differentiate between the two. Now, I don't really know how I could determine that a fat person in line at Wendy's is an obvious waste. You seem like a very judgmental person, so perhaps you would make that determination, but I wouldn't.

The point is that I don't think you should get a greater punishment for disrespecting a judge than you would get for disrespecting a normal citizen. I think that we should aim for equal protection under the law. If the law says that you can flip off a random person, but not a police officer or a judge, or "the court," that's not consistent. Flipping someone off harms them in no way. Disrespecting the court's authority harms no one. You're still going to get punished if you committed an actual crime.

I understand the term contempt of court. I think contempt of court can be handled by removing the person from the courtroom. There's no need to put them in jail for a longer period of time for an emotionally-charged outburst. Put people in jail when they actually infringe upon the rights of another person; slowing down the court process by a few seconds or minutes doesn't count as a real violation, in my eyes.

Quote :

"Definitely contempt of court which is deserving of punishment."

What kind of punishment fits the crime, then? Is the authority of the court legitimately challenged when a participant has an outburst? If that outburst is not punished with jailtime, will people everywhere just start breaking laws because they think the court no longer has the power to punish criminals? It's absurd. "Contempt of court" is simply a way to treat criminals like children.

Quote :

"Can't tell the due process to go fuck itself and then whine about how you didn't get due process."

Actually, you can. Due process should be applied no matter what. It doesn't matter if the person respects the process - they still get equal treatment under the law. This isn't just some tit-for-tat game where we take away people's rights when they say the wrong thing. For the law to be legitimate, it must be applied fairly.

Quote :

"so if you want to waste the court's time, they'll throw you in jail until you're ready to stop wasting time. Seems like a perfectly reasonable decision to me."

Sure, I agree that if you want to waste the courts time, you should be thrown in jail until you're ready to stop wasting time. That doesn't take six months, or anywhere close. If it does, then so be it. It shouldn't be a sentence, though - it should be exactly as you said, incarceration until the individual is willing to cooperate.

Quote :

"And I don't really have a problem with judges doing it, as long as it's not egregious (and in this case, it's not)."

In this case, meaning the case this thread is talking about? How is it not egregious? How is 6 months of prison a reasonable punishment for using some bad words and sticking up your middle finger?

Quote :

"Part of what differentiates the US (or any first-world country) from 3rd world countries is that people for the most part respect the laws, it helps to keep corruption minimized. People should have respect for our laws and our legal systems, because, among other things, our gov and our legal system has probably done as much to protect our freedoms as the military.[/"

People only respect the laws because the laws are (mostly) viewed as legitimate. If people were to see that the laws were being applied unfairly, or the laws applied differently to different groups of people, or some people were able to get more "retribution" than others because of their government position, the laws would lose legitimacy, which would lessen the authority of those laws.

Quote :

"Why don't we go ahead and look at who destroyer (spelled with numbers, L337) is white knighting:"

That's a fallacy that I was sure someone would attempt to use in this thread. I don't care if the person on trial was the worst person to have ever existed, they still wouldn't deserve 6 months in jail for flipping off the judge. It's just an excessively harsh punishment. They're already being punished for the crime (that actually harmed someone) - they don't need additional punishment for a non-crime.

The only reason these excessive punishments for "contempt of court" exist is because criminals are viewed by the public as sub-human. To the average American, criminals deserve any additional punishment the court can come up with. It doesn't matter for what. The criminal is to be despised and deserves whatever the judge wants to throw at him. I don't agree with that.

11/3/2009 2:45:11 PM

Thats a ton of quote bombing to back pedal for your white knighting of an asshole.

You should also take up the cause of pedobears getting raped by Jamal in prison. Their rights are sorely abused.

11/3/2009 3:30:43 PM

If it helps, you could just focus on the part of the post where I respond to you. You could even come up with a real argument against the points that I've made. Or, you could continue your tirade against my "white knighting" of a criminal because you don't have a leg to stand on here. It doesn't make much of a difference to me, but it isn't too late to have a legitimate discussion on this.

11/3/2009 3:41:58 PM

Don't pout sweetheart, you can still recover some intellectual dignity. Start by explaining to us what contempt of court means.

11/3/2009 3:46:16 PM

This guy sounds like a colossal douche, and fully deserving of the court hammering his tits in the worst way at his trial. Throwing him out of court and making him wait in jail until another hearing, or tacking on a little extra time, or withholding any leniency that MIGHT have been granted at his trial would be be reasonable responses.

Throwing someone in the slammer for SIX MONTHS for giving you the bird? You should be removed from the bench.

11/3/2009 3:58:42 PM

^^Showing disrespect to the court, disobeying the court, disrupting the court process, or introducing unfair evidence. I know what contempt of court is, and I don't know what point you're trying to make by calling into question my understanding of it.

You need to demonstrate why doing any of those things that I listed warrants 6 months in jail. Unless, of course, I'm totally off base with my definition of contempt of court.

11/3/2009 4:05:54 PM

Quote :

"Flip off the judge on the street all you want to. Flip him off when he's sitting on the bench, and you're flipping off the court. It's a different story. "

This is what it boils down to. The country doesn't work if people don't respect the legal process (ie, the court). I've got no problem with punishing someone who disrespects it. Maybe next time they'll learn to play nice.

My suspicion is that the judge, whose job is to wade through assholes all day, has probably run into something similar before and knew that the flip-off was just the tip of the iceberg, that the disruptions would continue. He tried to nip it in the bud.

Quote :

"Disrespecting the court's authority harms no one."

It harms the entire foundation of functional government. If the authority of courts is not almost universally recognized then we're all fucked.

Quote :

"It shouldn't be a sentence, though - it should be exactly as you said, incarceration until the individual is willing to cooperate."

That gets us to the possible situation of a person being incarcerated for very long periods of time without ever having been sentenced.

Quote :

"If people were to see that the laws were being applied unfairly, or the laws applied differently to different groups of people, or some people were able to get more "retribution" than others because of their government position, the laws would lose legitimacy, which would lessen the authority of those laws."

The law isn't "be real nice to judges." The law is "don't act like a dickhead in court," which seems fair and reasonable to me. Different places require different standards of behavior. I'm sitting in my room with the door closed, so it's perfectly OK that I'm not wearing any pants. If I were in the driveway six feet away, it would not be OK. If I were in court, it would be way less OK.

11/3/2009 4:06:16 PM

Quote :

"This is what it boils down to. The country doesn't work if people don't respect the legal process (ie, the court). I've got no problem with punishing someone who disrespects it. Maybe next time they'll learn to play nice."

People will continue to respect the legal process so long as people are being punished for crimes that they commit. No one is going to lose respect for the process because someone had an outburst during a court proceeding and didn't go to jail for a few months. Punishing victimless crimes, which I would say contempt of court classifies as, doesn't increase the legitimacy of the legal process, it decreases it.

A participant having respect for the court while in the courtroom has very little to do with society, as a whole, respecting the legal system. Society doesn't just respect the legal system because someone told them to, but rather, because they know that the legal system is what protects them from other individuals that wish to do them harm. No harm is being done to any individual through contempt of court, so there is no reason for the general public to lose respect for the system when it isn't punished harshly.

Quote :

"My suspicion is that the judge, whose job is to wade through assholes all day, has probably run into something similar before and knew that the flip-off was just the tip of the iceberg, that the disruptions would continue. He tried to nip it in the bud."

What is this, Minority Report?

Quote :

"It harms the entire foundation of functional government. If the authority of courts is not almost universally recognized then we're all fucked."

No, it doesn't. See the first part of this post.

Quote :

"That gets us to the possible situation of a person being incarcerated for very long periods of time without ever having been sentenced."

If they refuse to cooperate, they refuse to cooperate. They hold the key to their own cell, pretty much. If they don't want to stay in jail forever, they'll shut up and let the court process continue normally.

Quote :

"The law isn't "be real nice to judges." The law is "don't act like a dickhead in court," which seems fair and reasonable to me. Different places require different standards of behavior. I'm sitting in my room with the door closed, so it's perfectly OK that I'm not wearing any pants. If I were in the driveway six feet away, it would not be OK. If I were in court, it would be way less OK."

That doesn't solve the problem of the punishment needing to fit the crime. I don't think that a jail sentence is an appropriate punishment for some kind of emotional outburst or hand gesture in the court. If the only justification for the law is "Well, you're supposed to behave in court," I'm not buying it.

11/3/2009 4:22:20 PM

Are you arguing that there shouldn't be any punishment or that 6 months is too much?

If there isn't any at all, then courtrooms will be circuses where criminals will say whatever they want and generally disrupt the process without fear of retribution.

If you think there should be something but that 6 months is too much, then all we are doing at this point is haggling over the appropriate punishment.

11/3/2009 4:35:49 PM

Quote :

"What is this, Minority Report?"

In minority report the people arrested hadn't done anything. This guy had at least done the thing.

Quote :

"If they refuse to cooperate, they refuse to cooperate. They hold the key to their own cell, pretty much. If they don't want to stay in jail forever, they'll shut up and let the court process continue normally."

How is this different from what we've got now? I mean, other than the fact that my way has a judge hand down a sentence like we do for everything else.

Quote :

"I don't think that a jail sentence is an appropriate punishment for some kind of emotional outburst or hand gesture in the court."

Bear in mind that the judge ignored the first outburst. It wasn't until the guy continued being a dickhead that he laid down the law, so to speak.

My thought is that six months was too much for these particular offenses, and I have a problem with it. However, I do not have a problem with judges putting people in jail who commit crimes, so in principle I do not object to jail sentences as a response to contempt of court.

Quote :

" A participant having respect for the court while in the courtroom has very little to do with society, as a whole, respecting the legal system."

Yeah, yeah. Of course just one guy doing almost anything has very little to do with society. One guy smoking crack doesn't fuck up society. A whole bunch of people smoking crack does. Same with disrespecting the legal system. If it starts to seem more and more acceptable to act like a dick in court (say, because you're letting it slide), respect for it is going to go down, plain and simple.

11/3/2009 4:43:06 PM

Quote :

"Sure, I agree that if you want to waste the courts time, you should be thrown in jail until you're ready to stop wasting time. That doesn't take six months, or anywhere close. If it does, then so be it. It shouldn't be a sentence, though - it should be exactly as you said, incarceration until the individual is willing to cooperate. "

He got 6 months because that's the sentence allowed for criminal contempt of court per the Illinois judicial system.

http://www.19thcircuitcourt.state.il.us/rules/rules13.htm

Quote :

"3. Sanctions. If the matter is heard without a jury and upon a finding of direct criminal contempt, the Court may impose a fine not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500.00), incarceration in a penal institution other than the penitentiary for a term not to exceed six (6) months, or both. If a jury finds the respondent guilty of contempt, the Court is not limited in the fine or incarceration it may impose. The Court, in the exercise of its discretion, may impose such other sanctions as it deems appropriate."

IOW, just like any other crime, contempt of court has legally spelled out punishments. This is designed so that a judge can not summarily imprison an offender for an indefinite amount of time just because the judge didn't like his behavior. The individual in question committed the crime and under the laws of the state was sentenced for that crime. Now, you could argue that 6 months is too high of a sentence for contempt of court, but that is a legislative issue not a judicial one.

11/3/2009 7:10:37 PM

unconstitutional

11/3/2009 7:52:52 PM

Sounds like he should have gotten six years.

11/3/2009 10:30:24 PM

Quote :

"In minority report the people arrested hadn't done anything. This guy had at least done the thing."

He committed a crime, which he was going to be punished for. You were saying that the judge already knew that the individual was going to continue to cause trouble, based on his past experience with other criminals. That suggests that he wasn't given 6 months in jail for the finger/words, but rather, for what he was about to do.

Quote :

"How is this different from what we've got now? I mean, other than the fact that my way has a judge hand down a sentence like we do for everything else."

It's different because when you're sentenced, you don't hold the key to your own cell. You locked up, no matter how much you want to go back to court and cooperate. My point is that there shouldn't be any kind of sentence for contempt of court, you should just get locked up until you're ready to cooperate. It's a behaviorial issue, not a criminal issue.

Quote :

"Bear in mind that the judge ignored the first outburst. It wasn't until the guy continued being a dickhead that he laid down the law, so to speak."

I don't see why it matters. The judge could have kicked the guy out of the court and either continued without him, or he could have said "come back in a week when you're ready to act like an adult." If one episode of bad behavior doesn't warrant 6 months in jail, I don't see why two episodes does.

Quote :

"However, I do not have a problem with judges putting people in jail who commit crimes, so in principle I do not object to jail sentences as a response to contempt of court."

So you're saying that contempt of court is a crime. I disagree. No one's rights are being violated. As I mentioned, it's a victimless crime. The "authority of the court" is not a person with rights. It's a concept. We shouldn't be putting people in jail for offending concepts.

Quote :

"Yeah, yeah. Of course just one guy doing almost anything has very little to do with society. One guy smoking crack doesn't fuck up society. A whole bunch of people smoking crack does."

A whole bunch of people do smoke crack, and it's not "fucking up" society. It might cause some problems for the communities or families in which the crack is being smoked, but it isn't tearing down the fabric of society, whatever that would even mean.

Quote :

"Same with disrespecting the legal system. If it starts to seem more and more acceptable to act like a dick in court (say, because you're letting it slide), respect for it is going to go down, plain and simple."

It's not acceptable to act like a dick in court, though. And I'm not suggest that we let it slide. If the only "punishment" for contempt of court in a criminal case is being put in jail until you're ready to cooperate, any rational person is going to refrain from acting up. Otherwise, they're just going to be in jail for longer than they have to be. It benefits the individual to cooperate and allow the process to work. There doesn't need to be a jail sentence to keep people from having bad behavior, only the threat of continued incarceration. There's a distinction to be made between the two.

Quote :

"IOW, just like any other crime, contempt of court has legally spelled out punishments. This is designed so that a judge can not summarily imprison an offender for an indefinite amount of time just because the judge didn't like his behavior. The individual in question committed the crime and under the laws of the state was sentenced for that crime. Now, you could argue that 6 months is too high of a sentence for contempt of court, but that is a legislative issue not a judicial one."

It might be a law, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. There are plenty of awful laws in this country. Contempt of court is bad behavior, plain and simple. It shouldn't be considered a crime.

Quote :

"Sounds like he should have gotten six years."

Sounds like you have a messed up view of justice.

11/4/2009 12:15:31 PM

fucker got what he deserved.

and i cant read

[Edited on November 4, 2009 at 12:51 PM. Reason : *]

11/4/2009 12:50:48 PM

Quote :

"There doesn't need to be a jail sentence to keep people from having bad behavior, only the threat of continued incarceration. There's a distinction to be made between the two."

So rather than send someone to jail for a legally defined and limited amount of time for disrupting court proceedings, you would rather the judge be allowed to just throw someone in jail "until they're ready to cooperate"?

Or are you suggesting the court should play games with this guy every day when he says "Ok I'll cooperate" and then walks into court and causes another disruption?

Quote :

"So you're saying that contempt of court is a crime. I disagree. No one's rights are being violated."

The right of all the other people to a speedy trial is being violated by this persons wasting of the courts time.

11/4/2009 1:01:17 PM

Quote :

"So rather than send someone to jail for a legally defined and limited amount of time for disrupting court proceedings, you would rather the judge be allowed to just throw someone in jail "until they're ready to cooperate"? Or are you suggesting the court should play games with this guy every day when he says "Ok I'll cooperate" and then walks into court and causes another disruption?"

I could see having a week waiting period, or something like that. You're right that some people would get to their jail cell, say "I'm ready to behave," and then expect to go back to court. That's just not a feasible way of doing things. I think having a waiting period like that of a few days or a week is pretty reasonable.

Quote :

"The right of all the other people to a speedy trial is being violated by this persons wasting of the courts time."

If I were defending contempt of court laws, that's what I would argue. I think it's kind of a stretch, though. A lot of things can slow down the process. Should the court aide that makes a mistake on a form or something also go to jail? He also violated the rights of other people to a speedy trial. So, I think it's hard to demonstrate what harm is being done to others by "wasting time," and I certainly don't think violating that right should carry a harsh punishment.

11/4/2009 1:21:48 PM

This sounds rather excessive. 6 months for a rude gesture? I could understand a week or 10 days but 6 months? That judge takes himself rather seriously.

11/4/2009 1:30:02 PM

I think our disagreement seems to lie entirely in scale. You agree that "contempt of court" is a bad thing that can and should be punished with jail time. You even allow for the fact that there should perhaps be some standard period of time involved:

Quote :

"I could see having a week waiting period, or something like that."

Which ultimately makes it so functionally close to a "jail sentence" that it's hard for me to take that particular objection seriously.

Meaning that ultimately your point comes across as "Six months is too long for this!," which I already said I agreed with in this case.

Quote :

"A lot of things can slow down the process. Should the court aide that makes a mistake on a form or something also go to jail? He also violated the rights of other people to a speedy trial."

He may very well have, but he did so through unintended mistake and will presumably face disciplinary action if these mistakes become common.

Bear in mind that it's not just speedy trials being violated by contempt of court. Your tax dollars are getting burned up every time its demonstrated.

[Edited on November 4, 2009 at 2:00 PM. Reason : ]

11/4/2009 2:00:26 PM

do you honestly think someone who is accused of and likely guilty of assaulting a woman and a home invasion gives a shit about a 'fine' levied by the court? you have to punish someone so it hurts, or they dont get the message.

it should also be noted that judging by the overall doucheness of this guy, this 6 months will likely only be a flash in the pan compared to the amount of his life he spends in jail. fuck this guy. the only thing better than him going away for 6 months for contempt would be said victim of the home invasion blasting his ass with a 12-guage to prevent his parasitic ass from sponging off the rest of us for the remainder of his life.

11/4/2009 3:55:45 PM

Quote :

"Sounds like you have a messed up view of justice."

not really, I just don't feel like going to bat for a guy that has no better sense than to flip off a judge (in addition to doing all of the other things he allegedly did)

Based on his actions he is just begging to be institutionalized, why not grant him that wish.

11/6/2009 10:10:32 AM

People flip off judges all the time, most are ignored, everyone else gets a day or so. This dude made a choice, he wanted to flip off the judge and knew he would be punished for it. But six months? I would have never guessed it would be so much time, certainly neither did he. As such, no, the fact that he willingly volunteered for a night or maybe a week in jail does not make it right to make him disappear for six months.

An example would be a police officer pulling you over for speeding and winding up in prison when you expected a $300 fine. Yes, you willingly broke the law, but you did so under a set of social expectations which are being violated. It seems to me unjust for one guy to get 24 hours for the same crime that someone else got six months.

11/6/2009 10:21:09 AM

I think the court system is a load of shit based on how much money in fines, fees, and attorneys I have spent. That does not mean I am gonna walk in there and flip the fucking judge off.

The judge is not even the one to be mad at....flip off the cops or the prosecutor or something.

11/6/2009 10:26:38 AM

i think we should decriminalise obscene gestures

11/6/2009 10:38:34 AM

The way I see it the guy told the judge "fuck you", the judge said to the guy "well fuck you then".

It is like the guy at the bar who yells fuck you to the guy five times his size. Generally, I do not feel bad for someone who picks a fight and ends up getting their ass beat.

11/7/2009 9:38:28 PM

Yeah, and most people would just point and laugh and the dumbass who yelled repeatedly yelled "Fuck you!" to the big dude at the bar when the big dude popped him in the chin and knocked him down...


but if the big dude grabbed a crowbar and beat him within an inch of his life, to the point that he was laid up for 6 months...well, I think we'd pretty much all find that very excessive.

11/7/2009 10:00:13 PM

Quote :

"In traffic court one time, a guy was there for a minor drug possession charge and muttered under his breath, but so that enough people could hear him, "this is bullshit" and the judge charged him an extra fine or something. And I don't really have a problem with judges doing it, as long as it's not egregious (and in this case, it's not)."

I guess I've been away too long, moron. I don't recall your supporting such blatant examples of oppression. It's bad enough to be kidnapped by thugs for having a baggie of weed; you should at be able to call the situation what it is without fear of further punishment. I have trouble thinking of sufficiently harsh words for the judge in question.

Quote :

"Part of what differentiates the US (or any first-world country) from 3rd world countries is that people for the most part respect the laws, it helps to keep corruption minimized."

To the extent that US citizens respect the law, it's because of the society-wide disciplinary apparatus beating deference into us. See Michel Foucault.

[Edited on November 7, 2009 at 10:23 PM. Reason : foobar]

11/7/2009 10:22:57 PM

Quote :

"I guess I've been away too long, moron. I don't recall your supporting such blatant examples of oppression. It's bad enough to be kidnapped by thugs for having a baggie of weed; you should at be able to call the situation what it is without fear of further punishment. I have trouble thinking of sufficiently harsh words for the judge in question. "

I’ve seen first hand what the effect on a society that has no respect for the rule of law looks like, is all.

11/8/2009 4:18:42 AM

What's an example of a society that lacks respect for the law? In that example, was the problem that people didn't outwardly express respect for the law (causing the society to descend into chaos), or was it that people stopped obeying the law because they didn't view it as legitimate?

11/8/2009 11:02:25 AM

There is a difference between disrespecting that judge and believing that judges in general are illegitimate. A police officer that brushes off and calmly handles a drunk idiot gains legitimacy in my eyes. A cop that shoots someone for calling him a name threatens both the credibility and the legitimacy of the system.

In-so-far as Africa was less of a hell hole at the end of the 19th century and then went to hell, I blame the government agents that pulled shit like this.

11/8/2009 11:41:03 AM

Quote :

"I’ve seen first hand what the effect on a society that has no respect for the rule of law looks like, is all."

I'm hoping to see that here in the United States before too long. It's already prevalent amongst many of us. Who wants the police up in their neighborhood? I certainly don't.

11/8/2009 1:53:10 PM