Quote :

"Of 150 mosques or prayer rooms in Switzerland, only 4 have minarets, and only 2 more minarets are planned. None conduct the call to prayer. There are about 400,000 Muslims in a population of some 7.5 million people. Close to 90 percent of Muslims in Switzerland are from Kosovo and Turkey, and most do not adhere to the codes of dress and conduct associated with conservative Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, said Manon Schick, a spokeswoman for Amnesty International in Switzerland."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/world/europe/30swiss.html?_r=1

Other than a big “Screw you” to the muslims in Switzerland, as well as to their own constitution establishing religious freedom, what exactly did the Swiss hope to accomplish? I don’t see any indication that public money was used to fund the minarets, and they weren’t doing the prayer calls, so what exactly was the problem here?

Quote :

"In a recent televised debate, Ulrich Schlüer, a member of Parliament from the S.V.P., said minarets were a symbol of “the political will to take power” and establish Shariah, or religious law. … Still, the campaign was accompanied by sporadic shows of hostility. Last week, vandals threw stones and a pot of paint at Geneva’s main mosque."

This Ulrich Schluer guy seems like he could match wits with Joe The Plumber. Somehow, 2 new minarets are a sign that muslim extremists are going to take over Switzerland? I guess that could be a concern, when it looks like certain Christian extremists have already got their foot in the door.

It’s mildly comforting though to have clear evidence that the EU countries have stupid people in them too.

11/30/2009 1:38:53 AM

Could be an eye-sore to some. Not just "this windmill is fucking up my nice view", but more like "my beautiful, historic Swiss city's most recognizable feature is now a massive spire of Islam, wtf".

But if that were just the case, they probably wouldn't be talking about a nationwide ban.

11/30/2009 2:59:11 AM

And the French almost banned burqas:

France will oppose but not ban burqas
Nov 13, 2009

Quote :

"PARIS (Reuters) - France will issue recommendations against full face veils but not pass a law barring Muslim women from wearing them, a leading backer of a legal ban said on Friday."

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSTRE5AC2NJ20091113

Yet, some in these countries presume to lecture the United States concerning tolerance and liberty.

11/30/2009 4:34:56 AM

^^ That might be a valid argument if there were more than 4 of the things in the entire country, and if there were evidence that militant islam was anywhere close to taking hold in Switzerland.

11/30/2009 9:31:55 AM

^^Egypt is moving to ban full veils. Which in my opinion is a step in the right direction.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8290606.stm

11/30/2009 9:40:17 AM

I think banning minarets, veils, or anything else is the wrong approach. If there are any signs of "militant Islam" popping up, that can be dealt with. Until then, it would be better to let people do what they want and live in freedom. Hopefully, the people of Switzerland will eventually reject the giant scam that is religion altogether.

11/30/2009 10:48:47 AM

Maybe they banned them to get rid of that muslim call to worship thing they blare over speakers at the top of those things.

God knows it would get old listening to that 5x a day

11/30/2009 12:23:04 PM

You mean the calls to prayer that weren't even broadcast?

11/30/2009 12:30:03 PM

They're missing out on a golden opportunity. They could let them build some big ass minarets and then go get some REALLY long horns and go on top and re-do those Ricola commercials the right way.

11/30/2009 12:35:34 PM

Islam allows so few symbols for their religion and for this one to be taken away just keeps people from seeing the beauty that is produced by this religion and keeps the focus on terrorist zealots.

11/30/2009 12:44:30 PM

Until they do something about their religious zealots, it's going to continue. And should, continue, at that.

11/30/2009 12:52:07 PM

I guess you could say the same thing about all religious zealots. I def don't take responsibility for the Westboro Baptist church. I wonder if those people read their bibles.

11/30/2009 12:58:45 PM

I think they do read their bibles, and they believe everything in it. That's the problem.

11/30/2009 1:04:52 PM

I get you totally. They forget the whole love thing that is all through the bible and supposedly God=Love.

I am honestly really sad about this swiss decision.

11/30/2009 1:37:05 PM

Quote :

"Maybe they banned them to get rid of that muslim call to worship thing they blare over speakers at the top of those things. God knows it would get old listening to that 5x a day"

Having grown up in the middle east and having to put up with that every time i go visit family...I'm all for tearing those speakers off. Being woken up at 5am because the mosque right outside your window thinks its time for prayer after having just come home from the bars an hour earlier is not something I would wish on anyone.

and because thats not enough for them, they also stop whatever programming you are watching and put up a photo of a mosque with the audio of prayer over it on all TV stations. Fine, but at least pause the programming...nope...they don't do that either. This was annoying as hell before we had satellite which now doesn't seem to be as big of a problem.

[Edited on November 30, 2009 at 1:42 PM. Reason : .]

11/30/2009 1:41:00 PM

Quote :

"Maybe they banned them to get rid of that muslim call to worship thing they blare over speakers at the top of those things. God knows it would get old listening to that 5x a day"

Did you even read the quoted sections, let alone the article?

of the 4 in the entire country, none of them do the call to worship. And even if they did, a constitutional amendment is still a gross overreaction.

11/30/2009 2:40:43 PM

Quote :

"Having grown up in the middle east and having to put up with that every time i go visit family...I'm all for tearing those speakers off. Being woken up at 5am because the mosque right outside your window thinks its time for prayer after having just come home from the bars an hour earlier is not something I would wish on anyone. and because thats not enough for them, they also stop whatever programming you are watching and put up a photo of a mosque with the audio of prayer over it on all TV stations. Fine, but at least pause the programming...nope...they don't do that either. This was annoying as hell before we had satellite which now doesn't seem to be as big of a problem."

I tell you what, man... That would make me want to blow some shit up.... OMG THAT'S WHAT'S CAUSING IT

TURN OFF THE SPEAKERS

11/30/2009 2:49:40 PM

^^didnt read it,

I wasnt being serious

I know that the muslim dynamics are totally different in Europe than here but I still don't totally understand what people are so afraid of (are their actually places in switzerland where sharia law is taking a strong foothold?).

[Edited on November 30, 2009 at 2:56 PM. Reason : .]

11/30/2009 2:54:19 PM

I don't think so... but there certainly are in other parts of Europe. England and France have pockets of that right now.

11/30/2009 3:01:58 PM

^^ what ^ said...nip it in the butt before it begins.

11/30/2009 3:05:59 PM

^ I dont see how blocking minarets achieves that goal. If I were a muslim extremist, i would view it as a call to action.

11/30/2009 3:08:12 PM

^what comes next do you think? They have to start some where.

11/30/2009 3:20:45 PM

They can send all the minaret architects over here, the mosques in this country could use some livening up.

11/30/2009 3:37:11 PM

of all the things associated with muslims/arabs their architecture is the last thing to whine about.

11/30/2009 3:48:38 PM

We've already hit on everything else. From the dirka dirka dirka to the smelly cab drivers.

11/30/2009 4:03:25 PM

Quote :

"^what comes next do you think? They have to start some where."

They who?

From the articles i've read on this issue so far, it seems that it's the extremist Christians that are pushing this issue, not the secularists or moderates. I don't see how allowing one religious ideology to move towards silencing another by the means of institutionalized discrimination gains them any ground.

11/30/2009 4:37:30 PM

It's hilarious to see this from the other side:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyS8sIUjmQ

11/30/2009 7:10:14 PM

I like him harping the 2+2=3 bit the whole time, I wonder if that someone sounds more logical if you actually speak Arabic. Also, it's weird that he keeps switching into English and back.

Not that any of it matters, just because they refuse to be tolerant of other people's religions doesn't mean that everyone should be intolerant of others.

11/30/2009 7:27:24 PM

^^ wow, that is very scary.

It is the perfect example though of why the separation of religion and state must be maintained very clearly and definitively.

11/30/2009 7:42:18 PM

^ that is nothing (relatively speaking) as that particular scholar doesn't at least call for harming non-muslims in any way.

there are some really frightening videos of muslim 'scholars' on youtube saying all sorts of scary and abhorrent stuff.

what do i think of this swiss rolls minarets thing?

i think every country should decide what they allow and disallow in their own country, as long as they are not actively harming people of particular religions/ethnicities/etc. however at the same time, you (country) can't contradict yourself. either you have freedom or you don't. don't claim to have it and then start banning things such as head scarves and minarets.

btw, Turkey, a muslim country, also bans head scarves in public/government offices and universities.

Quote :

"It’s mildly comforting though to have clear evidence that the EU countries have stupid people in them too."

right wing and nationalistic parties in europe (france, germany, holland, uk, etc) are downright scary/aggressive/violent when it comes to their views regarding immigration, religious freedom, etc.


[Edited on November 30, 2009 at 7:52 PM. Reason : ]

11/30/2009 7:50:54 PM

Bizarre yet consistent with the anti-immigrant tradition seen across time and space.

It's a pity such a beautiful architectural feature got caught in the cultural crossfire.

11/30/2009 7:51:03 PM

Quote :

"Other than a big “Screw you” to the muslims in Switzerland, as well as to their own constitution establishing religious freedom, what exactly did the Swiss hope to accomplish?"

SERIOUSLY GUYS THE ANSWER TO THIS TOTALLY ESCAPES ME

thats where we're headed though, then you faggots will go weeping all over your tv stations, not to get it repealed, but to have it cover christianity. Then the weak pussies we are, we'll fold. Im moving to texas.

11/30/2009 7:57:10 PM

It would be crazy if this was the beginning of the widespread persecution of Muslims in Europe and for the next decade they were used as the scapegoat for all of the things going wrong over there, ultimately leading to the extermination of anyone practicing islam.

And then after we defeated Europe we gave the muslims Israel as their new homeland.

[Edited on November 30, 2009 at 7:57 PM. Reason : Godwins law?]

11/30/2009 7:57:29 PM

Quote :

"i think every country should decide what they allow and disallow in their own country, as long as they are not actively harming people of particular religions/ethnicities/etc. however at the same time, you (country) can't contradict yourself. either you have freedom or you don't. don't claim to have it and then start banning things such as head scarves and minarets. "

The problem with your position is where do you draw the line with what you allow?

As demonstrated in the swiss case, even calling for the ban of minarets resulted in violence against a mosque. It’s one thing if the ban were for some practical reason, but when the motivation is suppression of a religion, it will always result in animosity towards that religion. You don’t think the outright suppression of all other religions in places like Saudi Arabia doesn’t have a direct line to violent extremists coming from Saudi Arabia (most of the 9/11 hijackers were from saudi)?

Obviously countries can choose whatever they want to allow, but choosing not to err on the side of freedom is the wrong choice, and will only cause problems in the long run.

11/30/2009 8:00:20 PM

moron and hooksaw agreeing on something

The world must be ending.

11/30/2009 8:05:38 PM

Quote :

"i think every country should decide what they allow and disallow in their own country, as long as they are not actively harming people of particular religions/ethnicities/etc. however at the same time, you (country) can't contradict yourself. either you have freedom or you don't. don't claim to have it and then start banning things such as head scarves and minarets."

find me a country that actually has freedom.

11/30/2009 11:51:30 PM

Quote :

"Turkey, a muslim country"

turkey's gov't is explicitly secular. extremely so. their people are mostly muslim though.

12/1/2009 1:32:18 AM

^ turkey's secular government balances itself on a razor's edge - in perpetual threat of being islamicized.

12/1/2009 1:33:38 AM

Turkey's government has been progressing right for a better part of the last decade. The constitution and threat of military coup along with traditional Turkish political incompetence has kept the country fairly secular under the AKP. The Swiss official isn't that far off in his statement; burka's, head scarves, and even full neckbeards can and have been as political tools. In Turkey especially, being University student in a public school or a government official with a headscarf is (or was?) illegal and the attempt to lift that ban under the AKP has caused quite public furor.

Another thing you guys have to understand is that Europe is secular in general. You're not going to find a church every half mile as you do here in the States, and especially in the Bible belt. General Europeans don't really view bans on religious expression as appalling as we might (and especially if its the religion of a second class minority).

12/1/2009 2:03:36 AM

yeah, europes "so the fuck what" stance on islam is worse than just about anything for/against we can muster. its a damn swamp of sputnum that needs to swabbed again. (cept for spain, they got them cornhusks)

12/1/2009 2:22:25 AM

Is it? Islamic countries that implement Islamic law aren't really beacons of civilized society.

12/1/2009 2:27:17 AM

i know. its a tough one. the only actual solution is something unspeakably evil like a blanket nuclear attack that would not come close to justifying the action in the end.
but we cant bend over and fall all over ourselves accommodating their intolerance like england has done. any bill or law or ordinance naming islam as a target would ultimately be used to crush probably every other belief system except islam and secularism, so its a tough question i do not have an answer to

its also a question i dont remember being asked

12/1/2009 2:58:56 AM

Something the Europeans are doing has upset many Muslims (and others). The following is a map of the Les émeutes de banlieues de 2005 in France:



Map showing the spread of civil unrest through the many different regions of France:

[RED] Departments with more car burnings than usual.

[LIGHT GRAY] Departments with more car burnings than usual the day before.

[DARK GRAY] Full extent.

12/1/2009 3:48:51 AM

this thread is chok full of good news. EU needs to literally throw them out of their homes if they can't participate peacefully like the rest of us.

banning minarets is a solid move.

12/1/2009 11:00:12 AM

It's a solid move in the same way that banning Christian churches in America would be a solid movie. Except for the whole "gross violation of personal liberty" thing.

12/1/2009 11:19:14 AM

LOL at "more car burnings than usual"

12/1/2009 11:33:21 AM

Quote :

"It's a solid move in the same way that banning Christian churches in America would be a solid movie. Except for the whole "gross violation of personal liberty" thing."

Are you aware that minarets are not Mosques? Your analogy isn't correct.

Minarets would be analogous to crosses and belfry's on cathedrals and churches.

Also, I'm pretty sure if you stuck a Mosque in the middle of Crossroads, the Town of Cary would object to a minaret as well.

[Edited on December 1, 2009 at 2:16 PM. Reason : >.<]

12/1/2009 2:16:35 PM

It's an aesthetic thing. There are big churches and temples in the United State with giant crosses on them. Some people like it, some people don't. You're probably right that the town of Cary would have a problem with minarets on a mosque, but they also control zoning laws and have the right to restrict what structures are being built. The town of Cary ruling against it is much different than the federal government coming in and saying "No one can build this structure anywhere, even if it's on your property."

[Edited on December 1, 2009 at 2:35 PM. Reason : ]

12/1/2009 2:27:32 PM

Muslim countries ban crosses from being displayed on churches...so why would this be any different?

12/1/2009 2:51:13 PM

Because people expect religious theocracies to have backwards, idiotic laws. Not first-world democratic countries like Switzerland though.

12/1/2009 2:53:30 PM