I've made an observation about quite a few churches in the area, and I'm sure it applies to churches in other areas. I've noticed a fair amount of non denominational churches have pastors who live very lavish lifestyles. I've looked up some of the houses on wakegov and seen a few that live in $1m-$2million dollar homes. I've also seen their fancy cars and expensive clothes and things of that nature. I'm sure this happens in both white and black churches, but I've noticed it with predominantly black churches in this area(not turning this into a race issue). My question is where does all this money come from? In many of the cases if you drive by these churches they are not impressive, and probably don't have all that many members. How do the pastors and their families justify such a lavish lifestyle and such high pay? I go to one of the largest churches in Raleigh, and our preacher makes between $125-$150k (well deserved for the size of the church and tenure), but some of these other churches seem to be making people very wealthy. Does anybody have experience with these churches or understand the business model? Do members not question all that money going to the pastor?

[Edited on December 5, 2009 at 11:14 AM. Reason : Not Soap Box material, I'm not starting a debate I just want to know if anybody understands this]

12/5/2009 11:08:42 AM

church's what? Sorry, grammar nazi in me couldn't help itself.

12/5/2009 11:09:49 AM

some people are greedy hypocrites?

no way

12/5/2009 11:13:30 AM

a quick back of the envelope calculation:

assume:
250 members
$40,000/yr average member's income
10% tithe

250*40,000*.1 = $1million/yr

this doesn't count missions giving, building fund, charity drives etc. churches are pretty good at seperating money from their congregation.

12/5/2009 11:18:48 AM

Drive by any church on Sunday and see what kind of car is parked in the Pastor's Parking spot.

12/5/2009 11:30:00 AM

Don't get me started on this. I visited a church in Clayton with a buddy and his family, and it was held in a storefront at a strip mall between a Cato's and a another vacant space. There was nothing but folding chairs and a keyboard. Just judging by appearances members were dressed modestly and drove everyday cars.

But oh wait.......here comes pastor in her brand new SUV and her husband rolling behind her in his customized gold trimmed cadillac, both dressed to the nines. During the sermon she had the nerve to pass the collection plate around twice because she said it " just wasn't enough." Classy!

So yeah, you can make out like a bandit being a preacher. Economy proof profession.

12/5/2009 11:56:51 AM

i don't even see how making 125-50k is justified for any preacher, regardless of church size.

12/5/2009 12:07:47 PM

meh, i can see it for a big ass church. but not for what ^^ is talking about. people need to get over the whole "10% of your income goes to the church" bullshit, imo

12/5/2009 12:16:34 PM

My Aunt is a Pastor of a small church in Hickory. She barely makes $30k a year.

12/5/2009 12:32:10 PM

The topic of your thread has nothing to do with God.

It's entirely about people.

12/5/2009 12:45:18 PM

ban religion and imprison money loving pastors. sleep in and jerk off on sunday morning instead.

go watch religulous.

12/5/2009 1:01:50 PM

the problem isn't religion, it's greed

12/5/2009 1:05:28 PM

Everyone knows most black pastors steal from the collection plate.

12/5/2009 1:06:48 PM

Quote :

" a few that live in $1m-$2million dollar homes. I've also seen their fancy cars and expensive clothes and things of that nature."

Quote :

" I go to one of the largest churches in Raleigh, and our preacher makes between $125-$150k (well deserved for the size of the church and tenure), but some of these other churches seem to be making people very wealthy."

a preacher that makes 125-150 can easily afford a million dollar home. you have no problem with your preacher making that much but for other preachers its a problem?

it seems like you think preaching at your church is much more important than preaching at a church thats not yours. Don't be a hypocrit.

12/5/2009 2:07:05 PM

Agnostic Atheism FTW!

I thought the bible advocated living modestly and giving to the poor? Oh wait, it also condones slavery, misogyny, murder and hate. You also can't wear cloth from a variety of materials.

But, then you say, well the bible isn't supposed to be taken literally. Which parts? The inconvenient ones?

Some one go ask a penguin why he decided to waddle all the way down to Antarctica from Noah's ark.

[Edited on December 5, 2009 at 2:16 PM. Reason : Mysterious Ways]

12/5/2009 2:15:34 PM

because God willed him to

12/5/2009 2:18:27 PM

Quote :

"Some one go ask a penguin why he decided to waddle all the way down to Antarctica from Noah's ark."

I think this is where someone is supposed to post the Froshkiller quote

12/5/2009 2:18:50 PM

^^^^umm...how can you afford a 1-2 million dollar house making 125-150k per year?

i probably shouldn't feed the troll...

[Edited on December 5, 2009 at 2:25 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2009 2:24:45 PM

yeah, many of these people are evil

like, moneychanger evil

12/5/2009 2:24:57 PM

You most certainly can. I used to do mortgages. Payments on million dollar houses usually start at like 5-6k. Would be quite easy for somebody who brings home well over 10k a month. Then they could easily have a few 4-500 dollar car payments on top of that and still have 3 or 4 k left at least but those usually are bought and wrote off through the church. Thats assuming the wife doesnt work at all.

12/5/2009 2:39:27 PM

^1,000,000 loan for 30 years at 5% would be $5400 per month. add on another 1,000 per month for taxes and insurance and you're looking at $6400 for just the building. not even taking into account expensive utilities, HOA dues, maintenance, etc.

if you make 150k per year, you won't be bringing home 10k per month. unless i'm mistaken, i think pastors pay taxes like all the rest of us. they are probably bringing home more in the neighborhood of 8k (maybe 9k) per month and they are giving a minimum of 10% after back to the church (some people would tithe more and base it of their gross rather than the net). so they would have $7200 in spendable income and a $6400 mortgage. good luck with that.

[Edited on December 5, 2009 at 3:01 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2009 2:59:43 PM

Quote :

"people need to get over the whole "10% of your income goes to the church" bullshit, imo"

"goes to the church" doesn't mean "into the pastor's bank account"

I could see the OP's point in smaller churches where there is no accountability but in larger churches there are boards that decide this sort of thing and it's not like the pastor writes himself a check for whatever the hell he wants every month. if members are bothered by seeing what kind of car their pastor is driving or the house he's living in, they could easily speak to some board members about it

this isn't a religion problem, it's an individual greed problem and/or poor oversight from those that have power to make a change

12/5/2009 3:01:39 PM

churches run by couples in texas, at least houston, are rampant

i keep telling my bf we need to just start up a church, throw up a billboard and we'll be rich

joel osteen better watch it!!!

12/5/2009 3:20:05 PM

Quote :

"this isn't a religion problem, it's an individual greed problem and/or poor oversight from those that have power to make a change"

yeah, but the greed is rationalized and even lauded ($150k "well deserved") because of the religious environment.

12/5/2009 3:27:53 PM

If people are fully aware of where their money is going and they feel it's deserved, who gives a shit?

And I understand somebody who isn't religious doesn't feel such a huge salary is justified but you aren't the one giving the money. I'd have to judge by the congregation size, but 120-150 isn't that outrageous of a salary, considering the pastor's wife typically doesn't work either. Being the pastor of such a huge church is a 24/7 job too, it's not like he just sits in an office all week until Sunday morning to deliver a sermon.

12/5/2009 3:37:20 PM

damn i should have gone to divinity school.

12/5/2009 3:47:37 PM

^ shit, you don't need a degree to have your own church

12/5/2009 4:08:57 PM

don't tell me yall ain't familiar with the "buildin fund" at yo chuhch

12/5/2009 4:15:00 PM

us anglo catholics have decent sized endowments, but i know for a fact our rector drives a ford fusion.

12/5/2009 4:40:12 PM

and fucks little boys

12/5/2009 4:42:06 PM

Quote :

"And I understand somebody who isn't religious doesn't feel such a huge salary is justified but you aren't the one giving the money. I'd have to judge by the congregation size, but 120-150 isn't that outrageous of a salary, considering the pastor's wife typically doesn't work either. Being the pastor of such a huge church is a 24/7 job too, it's not like he just sits in an office all week until Sunday morning to deliver a sermon."

Yeah the rest of us do not have to take calls from people 24-7 who are in crisis.

Most people kind of expect their pastor to show up on really short notice if they are bedside with a family member in the final throes of life.

12/5/2009 4:48:23 PM

i wouldn't have that much of a problem with a preacher making 6 figures if he didn't live lavishly and tithed and gave plenty to charity, i still wouldn't like it but the actions of the preacher would probably be the decider for me.

i left me church growing up because they spent millions on a new building that had a gym and auditorium while at the same time the church was falling short of meeting various financial promises they made to a few separate ministries. the final straw was when they closed church basketball and made it members only, so much for a community outreach.

12/5/2009 6:00:11 PM

How are you looking them up? Checking the pastor's name or something?

12/5/2009 6:12:50 PM

there is a certain denomination of christianity that feels it is "Godly" to be rich and that only sinners are poor.

cant find a wiki page or anything for it though, but i have heard it discussed on the news before.

12/5/2009 6:58:43 PM

smart people taking advantage of stupid people


it happens everyday... not only in churches but also in politics and everyday life .... ponzi schemes...etc..


complaining is just a waste of time... learn from other peoples mistakes ... if you don't, then you're one of the dumb ones and probably... deserved it.

12/5/2009 7:06:37 PM

I know more Pastors that are struggling financially than those that are raking in it, though i think that has to do with the sheer number of churches, and the rise of the non-denominational churches.

My pastor built his house on his own, with the help of the men's group from our church. We did most of the construction, the brick laying, hung the shingles, did the electric work... It's a big house, but he's got a big family. It cost much less than it appears to.

I'm sure there are pastors out there that do this "Steve Martin in Leap of Faith" shit, but for the most part, most pastors are doing ok, but not great.

12/5/2009 7:10:11 PM

^^^look up "The Family". Your mind will be blown (even more so the tin foil hat crowd's).

My sister used to both attend and work for a very large church in Asheville that shares its name with a very large house in Asheville. She left the church and her job there because of behind the scenes financial shenanigans. The pastors gave themselves bonuses to purchase $5000 suits, they all drove new Mercedes or BMWs, etc. She said their justification for it was they needed these high end items so the business people to whom they were ministering would take them seriously.

12/5/2009 7:36:32 PM

There's plenty of corrupt baptist churches like these around where I am now (the Hampton Roads area).

It's kinda what made me decide that I want absolutely nothing to do with the churches around here.

12/5/2009 9:04:04 PM

I agree with a lot of what is said, except the girl that said that $125-$150 is enough to afford a $1-$2 million dollar house, and something to the effect that $125-$150 is excessive. First off, I too was a mortgage broker and if you were the one writing $1-$2 million dollar loans to people making $125-$150, thanks for the mortgage meltdown.
Also, $125-$150k is not excessive in my opinion, and a lot of my opinion is based on my preachers actions. He gives a ton of money to charity, drives a modest car and doesn't live in excess. $125-$150 is not what it used to be, and as a 55 year old minister who works 24 hrs a day and has done a lot for one of the major denominations across the country, I think it's well deserved.

12/5/2009 9:31:06 PM

Yeah, I suppose you could swing the payments on a million-dollar house with a $150k/year salary, but I definitely wouldn't say "easily". You'd have a really nice house, but have to live pretty frugally otherwise. Not many people want to live in a million dollar house, but furnish it with furniture from Wal-Mart and Craigslist, and have a used Kia in the garage.

12/5/2009 11:34:49 PM

^no doubt that mathematically it's possible, but it would be implying that they have very little to no other expenses, and they live very frugally. The ministers I'm talking about that live in these houses are not living frugally, they drive fancy cars, wear expensive suits, and live like ceo's.

12/5/2009 11:50:55 PM

yeah, you need something more on the order of $300-500k+/year to live like that (depending on exactly how extravagant you're talking about, and what other expenses you have).

12/5/2009 11:57:24 PM

I don't know why you think no money would be left after the mortgage. Lets break it down

Lets say they bring home 10k per month

quick calculation of a 40 year mortgage with a high 6% rate is around 7k with taxes and insurance.

That leaves 3k per month left for other stuff. Essentially an average salary after paying for housing.

700 per month buys a lavish car with insurance (many buy cars through the church)

1k per month pays lavish bills/food

1300 left per month.

Easily.

Nobody said preachers are saving 50% of their salary or bought their houses on 30% dti.

Also remember how old preachers are. If they bought a 500k house 15 years ago its probably worth a million now.

Then they have all types of tax writeoffs and other types of benefits the come from being a preacher.

12/6/2009 12:00:25 AM

^ Income taxes?

12/6/2009 12:11:51 AM

^^How can you take the amount of time to think/type that out and forget that a 1/3 of that 150 is going to income taxes.

Just stop.

12/6/2009 12:23:18 AM

income taxes aren't taken directly out of everyones pay. Preachers could easily work up enough interest and church related tax write offs to negate most of those come tax time.

12/6/2009 12:40:01 AM

a lot of churches have housing and travel allowances too

12/6/2009 1:39:49 AM

The Reverend Jeremiah Wright's $1 million-plus house.

[Edited on December 6, 2009 at 7:31 AM. Reason : But, but the church owns it! ]

12/6/2009 7:30:50 AM

The preacher at my church back home made a pretty solid salary, ~$100k but imo he earned it. He did an amazing job preaching and I really enjoyed listening to his sermons. He also brought more people into the church because of how good his sermons were, this grows the church which also grows what we do for the community. He doesn't live a lavish lifestyle and imo the good he does for the church and the community far outweighs the decent salary he makes.

As for those "preachers" who live in multi-million dollar homes and fly around in their private jets, I disagree with that completely and will never support an organization that allows that to happen. Just because someone holds the title of preacher at a church does not mean that God approves of their actions no matter what.

12/6/2009 9:52:17 AM

Quote :

"the good he does for the church and the community far outweighs the decent salary he makes. "

thats hypocritical. Christians aren't supposed to look to be reimbursed for following christ.

mark 10

Quote :

"4 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" 24 The disciples were amazed at his words. So Jesus again said to them in reply, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to pass through (the) eye of (a) needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." 26 They were exceedingly astonished and said among themselves, "Then who can be saved?" 27 Jesus looked at them and said, "For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God." 28 Peter began to say to him, "We have given up everything and followed you." 29 Jesus said, "Amen, I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel 30 who will not receive a hundred times more now in this present age: houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come. 31 But many that are first will be last, and (the) last will be first." "

12/6/2009 12:17:38 PM