There really hasn't been much of a discussion about this topic, whether in here or The Soap Box (which could also be appropriate given the fed gov't conflict of interest as major shareholders in GM and Chrysler).

The claims are that floor mats are getting stuck behind the gas pedal, the gas pedal gets stuck, or there's an electronic sensor malfunction somewhere in the system.

While these things might very well be true I have a hard time believing some of the claimed "victims" who claim wild rides that they've been unable to stop. It's common knowledge that the brakes in a modern automobile can always overpower the engine. If you floor both the brake pedal and gas pedal at highway speeds you will still come to a stop and in all likihood wouldn't notice the 20 ft length difference.

Just seems to me that a lot of these people are full of shit and the government has been all about bashing Toyota. Or, are people really this stupid and helpless when behind the wheel?

Thoughts, comments, jokes?

2/23/2010 10:20:27 AM

Have you never been in a panic situation?

Cooler heads always prevail, but not everybody is going to get it together in the 4 seconds or less that it takes for a car to get to potentially deadly speeds.

Quote :

"If you floor both the brake pedal and gas pedal at highway speeds you will still come to a stop and in all likihood wouldn't notice the 20 ft length difference."

Wasn't the 20 ft length difference only on cars that are programmed to cut the fuel when the brake pedal is depressed? And hasn't it been determined that Toyota failed to put in such a safeguard despite most of their competitors having one? And don't the Toyotas without the safeguard take noticeably longer to stop (a hell of a lot more than 20')? C&D covered this a month ago, but I don't feel like looking up the article right now.

[Edited on February 23, 2010 at 10:30 AM. Reason : l]

2/23/2010 10:29:47 AM

in some instances, it was noted that the floor mats were in the trunk on a few of the wrecks

2/23/2010 10:39:23 AM

Quote :

"Or, are people really this stupid and helpless when behind the wheel?"

those of us who are into motorsports should have acquired at the very least basic performance driving techniques and how to control certain situations. this knowledge is acquired from merely "acting a fool" by doing burnouts, pulling the e-brake, and playing in the snow. when you drive, start paying attention to a shoulderless road. notice how many times you see the dirt beat down from multiple cars running off the road in a very shallow curve. start paying attention to curbs in the drive-thru. notice how black they are from fat bitches (hell, pay attention to fat women. imo, they are the ones who are the most out of control when driving) curbing the hell out of their tires. start looking at the concrete posts that are used as a protective block when pulling into a bank drive-thru. these are things that shouldn't have a scuff on them.

Quote :

"The claims are that floor mats are getting stuck behind the gas pedal, the gas pedal gets stuck, or there's an electronic sensor malfunction somewhere in the system."

there is no doubt in my mind that the accidents from the "stuck accelerator pedal" most likely could have been avoided if the driver didn't panic. i see a lot of stupid shit in my line of work where people are busted the fuck up because they immediately went into a panic over something stupid and could have been easily avoided. hell, listen to the audio of the 911 call from a state trooper who was involved in a crash driving the lexus. the dispatcher clearly asked him to either shift into neutral or turn the car off but he was in such a panic that the words were not registering.
the root of the problem, imo, is definitely electrical. i don't buy the floor mat or pedal sticking bullshit. i can't stand all this electrical shit that is going into vehicles these days. all new fire engines have electronic throttle control. it's installed for ease of use so the pump operator can just push a button to put the proper discharge pressure on a determined hose line. yeah, it does make it easier but if you know what the fuck you are doing an old truck with mechanical throttle control is not hard anyway. what i don't like about it is the electronics screw up the fire engine is useless and can no longer pump water. that's bad for those of us who are inside and suddenly lose water pressure. an older fire engine with mechanical controls meaning an actual throttle cable that breaks the pump operator could hop in the cab and step on the accelerator pedal to provide pump pressure. [/rant]
those of us with nextel phones know how much interference they have on electronics. i can tell when my phone is getting ready to ring if it's near an electronic device with speakers. i believe all this wireless shit people have in their cars is causing these problems through electromagnetic interference. i hope they are anyway so maybe this will push for a ban on using a cell phone while you drive.

Quote :

"the government has been all about bashing Toyota."

i'm not big into conspiracy theories but i can definitely see where one is coming from on this topic. the gov't is now into the manufacture of automobiles. toyota is #1 in the world. go after the big guy to get more sales for the #3 company

[Edited on February 23, 2010 at 10:59 AM. Reason : -]

2/23/2010 10:50:55 AM

Quote :

"Wasn't the 20 ft length difference only on cars that are programmed to cut the fuel when the brake pedal is depressed? And hasn't it been determined that Toyota failed to put in such a safeguard despite most of their competitors having one? And don't the Toyotas without the safeguard take noticeably longer to stop (a hell of a lot more than 20')? C&D covered this a month ago, but I don't feel like looking up the article right now"

No, it was just a random Camry that Car and Driver used in that test that did not have any cut fuel program. The engine was running full bore while the car decelerated, and ultimately only took 16 more feet to stop. Which, by the way, was still quite shorter than another family sedan (Taurus) that needed even more room to stop under normal braking. I also don't believe that most auto manufacturers program their cars to cut fuel if both the brake and throttle are pushed at the same time. A few do, as its always brought up in enthusiast car magazines b/c they look down on it.

Quote :

"Have you never been in a panic situation? Cooler heads always prevail, but not everybody is going to get it together in the 4 seconds or less that it takes for a car to get to potentially deadly speeds."

I realize that in some situations even those of us that claim to be highly skilled drivers would probably hit something. Say I was in rush hour traffic on I-40 and all of a sudden the car keeps speeding up even though I'm not pushing the gas. If I was only a few car lengths behind another car there is a good chance I'd rear end him. But we're hearing about people hanging on for dear life as their cars accelerate to 100 mph for miles at a time. Just press the FUCKING brake!

As for personal experience I was in somewhat heavy traffic once when my brakes failed. Pedal went to the floor, so I immediately shifted into 1st gear (was only going 20-30mph at the time) and pulled (gradually) on the E-brake. Again, I do realize that some people aren't paying attention or know a damn thing about driving but that's them being irresponsible, they should know better (blame gov't for lax DL testing?).

Quote :

"those of us with nextel phones know how much interference they have on electronics. i can tell when my phone is getting ready to ring if it's near an electronic device with speakers. i believe all this wireless shit people have in their cars is causing these problems through electromagnetic interference. i hope they are anyway so maybe this will push for a ban on using a cell phone while you drive. "

I hear you Brian. It's retarded stupid. I use an FM transmitter to listen to my iPod in the car and sometimes I can hear faint static when I push the brake pedal down. And other times I can hear faint static when I'm NOT pushing the brake pedal down Ugh. And I wish my S2000 had a mechanical throttle linkage, not this electronic shit they switched to in 2006.

[Edited on February 23, 2010 at 11:18 AM. Reason : as]

2/23/2010 11:16:41 AM

Chances are some people didn't realize their gas was stuck until they needed to stop. Even the most canny driver has a good chance of crashing when their brakes don't work as expected.

Now, the guy who was on a 911 call and couldn't stop on the highway - thats complete idiocy; likely not even close to the vast majority of cases.

At least this instance of "unintended acceleration" seems legit. It was a total fiasco in the 80s when a sensational 60 minutes re-enactment caused Audi's sales to plummet. They didn't fully recover for 15 years - and the real cause was proven to be driver error!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/60_Minutes#Unintended_acceleration

2/23/2010 11:53:53 AM

^^

The DBW (I feel) results in a better factory tune. My s2000 has a pretty bad oem tune. Anything below 2500RPM is .

2/23/2010 12:02:47 PM

check this out:

http://www.newser.com/article/d9e1ro700/driver-to-describe-6-miles-of-interstate-terror-at-hearing-on-sudden-toyota-acceleration.html

She shifted to Neutral, tried the E brake, brakes wouldn't respond....if you are a "talented driver" and this happens, what else can you do?

2/23/2010 12:04:26 PM

I'm calling BS. That or she's the most unlucky person in the world.

2/23/2010 12:09:18 PM

^agreed. She's lying.

Quote :

"Even the most canny driver has a good chance of crashing when their brakes don't work as expected"

Lumex, nothing's wrong with the brakes (sorry, to clarify we're not talking about the brake issue on Priuses, in this thread).

2/23/2010 12:43:09 PM

if you had a prius that wouldn't stop accelerating, how would you know?
(not my words, but hilarious)

also couldn't you just turn the car off?

[Edited on February 23, 2010 at 12:49 PM. Reason : ]

2/23/2010 12:45:03 PM

^^The brakes themselves are fine, but they don't work as you would expect when your throttle is stuck open - and that would cause an accident. I didn't mean to imply the brakes were broken.

2/23/2010 1:22:57 PM

The 3.5 V6 found in the ES350 and IS350 are pretty powerful, they match nissan's 3.6 liter V6 and offer more torque. The IS350 can do 0-60 in 5 secs flat on a good day. The problem is when the throttle sticks open, vacuum drops and brakes dont work that good. When you hit the brakes the throttle should close (but it doesn't), the brakes then fade and are useless, all these cars have keyless start, but pressing the start\stop button doesnt cut the engine off. You have to press it alot or hold it down for like 8 secs. now if an IS350 can do 0-60 in 5 sec. Im sure it could do 60-100+ in 8 secs. By then the car is going 100+mph with no brakes and the driver is deep in OH SHIT MODE!

2/23/2010 1:47:48 PM

Dubcaps makes a good point. Ahmet and I were conversing on this whole fiasco, and I mentioned to him that any decently intelligent person would turn the car off.

He continued to tell me about a Lexus that was victim to the run of the mill acceleration issue. The Lexus was a push button ignition. You have to either hold down the push button for a certain amount of time or hit it in some sequence. I can't remember. Anyways, some of you might have known to do that with a button ignition, but I sure as hell did not.

2/23/2010 1:49:59 PM

Quote :

"The 3.5 V6 found in the ES350 and IS350 are pretty powerful, they match nissan's 3.6 liter V6 and offer more torque. The IS350 can do 0-60 in 5 secs flat on a good day. The problem is when the throttle sticks open, vacuum drops and brakes dont work that good. When you hit the brakes the throttle should close (but it doesn't), the brakes then fade and are useless, all these cars have keyless start, but pressing the start\stop button doesnt cut the engine off. You have to press it alot or hold it down for like 8 secs. now if an IS350 can do 0-60 in 5 sec. Im sure it could do 60-100+ in 8 secs. By then the car is going 100+mph with no brakes and the driver is deep in OH SHIT MODE!"

The best explanation of how that one Lexus crashed I've seen so far. They were proibably not used to to stop/start button and how to shut that car off. Still doesnt explain why he did not shift it into neutral.

2/23/2010 2:07:53 PM

^^^Car and Driver did the brake test with a Roush Mustang as well, with over 500hp. Guess what, same result. Car still comes to a stop.

Quote :

"The brakes themselves are fine, but they don't work as you would expect when your throttle is stuck open"

16 extra feet to stop when using both the gas and brake (instead of just brake) is "brakes not working as you would expect?" You can get that kind of peformance change just by using inferior brake pads.

[Edited on February 23, 2010 at 2:25 PM. Reason : Roush, not Shelby]

2/23/2010 2:20:11 PM

^^with the Lexus, they did try shifting to Neutral and even Reverse to get the car to stop. No fucking luck....

http://www.wral.com/business/story/7098103/

"Rhonda Smith's story of six miles of interstate terror, as her Lexus suddenly zoomed to 100 miles per hour, will set the mood Tuesday for the first congressional hearing on Toyota's acceleration problems.

The Sevierville, Tenn., woman shifted to neutral. She tried to throw the car into reverse. She hit the emergency brake. Nothing. Then, her Toyota-made car miraculously slowed down before she crashed."


[Edited on February 23, 2010 at 2:30 PM. Reason : ..]

2/23/2010 2:29:19 PM

^again, we don't believe her. also, it doesn't even mention in the article if she tried using the regular brakes.

BTW, here's the chart from C&D that I've (as well as a few others) referenced:



link to article: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

[Edited on February 23, 2010 at 2:36 PM. Reason : link]

2/23/2010 2:35:52 PM

Quote :

"16 extra feet to stop when using both the gas and brake (instead of just brake) is "brakes not working as you would expect?" You can get that kind of peformance change just by using inferior brake pads."

Well, I expect my car to slow down when I press the brake lightly. Maybe I'm the only one.

You can't simplify it to "16 extra feet" - reality is far more complicated than that.

2/23/2010 2:48:39 PM

^while I agree that a controlled situation is different than real life, what do you do when you push the brake pedal a little bit and nothing happens? I would push the brake pedal harder.

2/23/2010 2:58:55 PM

^ditto

If anything I would expect a normal person's reaction in a frantic situation (where the car is freely accelerating) is to jam there foot onto the brake pedal.

2/23/2010 4:06:44 PM

I'd have both feet on the brake until the car stops or I sent it through the floorboard.

2/23/2010 4:41:21 PM

It's a human factors thing (I was a human factors major). People don't respond as well to uncommon stimuli, and situations are so varied that it's impossible to say what you would do in that situation.

Naturally the appropriate response to the situation is to floor the brake - but how long does it take someone to realize the amount of pressure they're putting on the brake is not doing what it normally does, and act accordingly? I'd say most people would not react in time to prevent an accident, unless they discovered the problem while they were not in immediate need of braking.

2/23/2010 4:51:31 PM

Quote :

"I'd have both feet on the brake until the car stops or I sent it through the floorboard."

2/23/2010 6:51:15 PM

This, in my opinion, has more to do with us being a society full of no-driving, litigious assholes who don't like to accept responsibility than it does with Toyota having significant problems. Sure, they should probably fix these little issues, but I don't think this should be spooling everyone up into crisis mode the way it is.

2/23/2010 7:21:44 PM

^i agree.

2/23/2010 7:37:01 PM

While I agree that we "should" be better about this, reading about the specifics of the Lexus crash/deaths did make me feel bad, considering that it was a loaner from a dealer that was different than his personal car two significant ways:

1-Gated shifter, not easily put into neutral.
2-Start/stop button, needs to be held down for shut off, key fob not useable to turn car off.

Keep in mind that as per outside observation, the brakes were shooting sparks and were not slowing the car (270hp -vacuum brake assist = bad). Also, as per 911 call from the backseat of said vehicle, start/stop button was unresponsive, brakes also ineffective. One vacuum assisted application of the brakes is a far cry from not having boost and trying to slow a car down from 100+. Pumping the brake pedal is not so hard to imagine on a car that's now slowing down, and if you did that, you'd kill what little assist you had in the first place, and I imagine this is about when your brakes would start to fade.

I've also read a few reports on how Toyota was aware of the electronics issue (which in my opinion is THE only issue here), but mislead the public to save money on recalls. Not cool.

One final note, I think it's inexcusable for there not to be a more sophisticated control circuitry to cut engine power when a fault is detected, not to mention closing the throttle when brake/gas are applied simultaneously, as practically every other manufacturer does, particularly on snoozemobiles like the crap Toyota is making nowadays.

OK, final point. WTF is the point of a start button, you have the key that you have to put in the ignition, and in some cases turn into the power position, why also have a button??!

2/23/2010 11:18:22 PM

^ +1

2/23/2010 11:53:19 PM

^ a lot of the new cars don't require the key to leave your pocket. As long as the fob is in proximity it will function at the push of a button.

2/23/2010 11:54:45 PM

the s2k has a push start and requires the key. i cant @*@&ing stand it.

2/23/2010 11:57:12 PM

^^^^ Come on, you should know as well as anyone how terrible of an idea it would be to mandate that the throttle automatically close when brake/throttle are applied simultaneously. I mean, I guess it's ok on an appliance car with an automatic transmission, but it's a terrible idea for any car with a manual (to the point that it would be a dealbreaker--I wouldn't buy such a car unless I could easily disable that feature).

Of course, I get annoyed by traction and stability control, too (both can be good features, but I don't like it when they're intrusive and/or not easily defeatable). ABS is about the only electronic nanny that I have a fully positive opinion of.

^ yeah, it's kinda unnecessary...but you have got to be the most self-loathing S2000 owner on the planet.



[Edited on February 24, 2010 at 12:01 AM. Reason : are that that many cars that auto-chop the throttle when you brake? I've NEVER encountered that.]

2/23/2010 11:59:38 PM

So wait, you have to hold down the "start/stop" button to turn off cars now? That sonambitch would have killed me too. It's a car, not a stupid cell phone.

2/24/2010 12:04:16 AM

^^

It's just switching cars all the time where it becomes a PITA. It's also of no benefit to the end user . I guess it looks....cool?

I hate on the car a lot but its not like I dont have legitimate complaints. The only thing i really love is the transmission and the size/weight. The k20 is a better engine....I would prefer it over the F22.


Oh and my complaint about the tune is accurate regarding my car. I've written better tunes for map based honda engines in freeware and a dream. I know ray (arghx) could do a better job than whats on my car now in 2 hours.

[Edited on February 24, 2010 at 12:17 AM. Reason : maybe mine is just fucked]

2/24/2010 12:16:09 AM

the s2000 push button start would be metric shit tons better if you didn't have to take the key out of your pocket.

also it seems like these problems could be alleviated if everyone drove manual transmission cars!
(i know this is unrealistic)

it will be interested to see what this does to toyota.

2/24/2010 12:36:58 AM

The real problem is the fact that Toyota tried to cover it up.

Its big news because its Toyota. Didnt the feds just bail out GM. And who is GM's biggest competitor? GM was the first ones to start offering the "trade in your toyota and get an extra $1000 off program". They hit toyota where it hurts the most, their reputation for being reliable.

2/24/2010 7:24:37 AM

I think pushbutton start/stop is retarded. We've had keys for the last 70 years (if not more) and they work just fine. Direct mechanical connections for throttle, brake, ignition and steering is something that should remain. I don't f*cking trust computers or their programmers.

Asshole automakers trying to reinvent the wheel.

2/24/2010 8:41:37 AM

I like drive by wire systems and keyless start systems, when they are designed correctly. My G35 is very good. DBW has eleminate seperate systems for, fast idle, cold idle, cruise control, traction control, egr, etc..... its now all control by the computer and DBW system. Toyota just designed a bad system.

2/24/2010 9:30:42 AM

Duke,

The AUDI/VWs, BMWs, Benzs and practically everything else I have driven close the throttle when both are applied simultaneously, after a certain period (generally 3 seconds or so). Furthermore, most (every one I've driven) manual transmission cars will allow gas to be on with the brake, if the clutch is also pushed in, thus you can heel/toe properly.

2/24/2010 10:23:43 AM

Toyota is having the same problems the big 3 had back in the 70s.. volume way up, quality down simple as that. they grew to fast, worried about the bottom line too much. I think they will recover and will get their priorities straight after this, that is if it doesn't go on too much longer. just look how long it's taken ford to get it's reputation back in the car segment.... from the 80s till now. Most of my generation grew up thinking ford products were junk and that's whats given toyota and honda the upper hand as we've made car purchases... it's shifted now and I think their is parity at best with ford likely having the upper hand. not what the yota fans want to hear but the truth.

2/24/2010 10:57:17 AM

no, ford still makes some junk

2/24/2010 11:23:05 AM

fmsj

2/24/2010 11:38:24 AM

I know my G35 only gives like 30% throttle when the brake is applied.

2/24/2010 11:47:50 AM

Toyota's problem is that they're made in the fucking USA.

2/24/2010 12:46:11 PM

was the problem with the toyotas a design problem or did some dude not bolt it on right? country of origin doesn't apply.

2/24/2010 12:57:17 PM

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/report-toyota-bragged-about-saving-100m-with-limited-recall

Report: Toyota bragged about saving $100M by avoiding, limiting recalls

Quote :

"If you saved your company $1 million, you'd brag about it, right? How about $100 million? Certainly you'd be looking for a few pats on the back for such a massive sum of loot. A report in The Detroit Free Press reveals that Yoshimi Inaba, chairman and CEO of Toyota Motors Sales in the U.S., allegedly did such bragging back on July 6, 2010, but the topic was "Wins for Toyota" and the subject was safety."

Slide from internal presentation


Toyota's official response:

Quote :

"Our first priority is the safety of our customers and to conclude otherwise on the basis of one internal presentation is wrong. Our values have always been to put the customer first and ensure the highest levels of safety and quality. Our recently announced top-to-bottom quality review of all company operations, along with new quality initiatives and a renewed commitment to transparency are all designed to reaffirm these values."

********************************************************

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/24/will-toyotas-inintended-acceleration-woes-help-free-imprisoned

Quote :

"In June 2006, Koua Fong Lee was driving his pregnant wife and other family members home from church when he says his 1996 Toyota Camry accelerated on its own and the brakes stopped working. Lee struck another vehicle, killing three people in that car. A Minnesota jury convicted Lee of vehicular homicide and the native of Laos was sentenced to an eight-year prison sentence even though there was no evidence of alcohol or drugs involved in the incident. Fast-forward to over three years later, and Toyota's recall woes for unintended acceleration are casting doubt on the jury's decision to convict Lee. But while the 1996 Camry isn't involved in the current recall, some 1996 models were recalled for unintended acceleration. Further, ABC News says that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has received at least 17 other complaints of unintended acceleration in 1996 Camrys with comments like "couldn't stop" and "had to crash into a tree and another car to stop." Brent Schafer, the lawyer for Lee, has asked for a new trial, and for his client to be set free until the time of a new hearing. The prosecution in the case told ABC News that it supports examining the 1996 Camry involved in the crash to determine if the car is at fault instead of Lee. For its part, Toyota has chosen not to comment to ABC News due to the fact that there could be a future lawsuit brought against the company."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/toyota-flaws-free-convict-9906986 (videos)

************************************************************************

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/video-smoking-gun-abc-news-expert-recreates-sudden-acceleratio

Video: Smoking Gun? ABC News expert recreates sudden acceleration without CPU error code *UPDATED w/Toyota response

Quote :

"Earlier today, ABC News released a report asserting that the cause of Toyota's unintended accelerations issues might not be a faulty accelerator mechanism, but an electronic flaw in the automaker's engine control unit – something that's been suspected, although never confirmed, for some time. David Gilbert, an automotive technology professor at Southern Illinois University and ABC's primary source for the report, claims to be able to duplicate the effect by short-circuiting one of the controls, which could be caused by moisture, wear or a combination of factors in Toyota vehicles. Although the report goes into specifics, seeing is believing, and ABC News has done just that, putting Brian Ross behind the wheel as Gilbert trips the switch. The results are rather shocking – particularly since the ECU doesn't record a fault."

Click to watch videos.

2/24/2010 6:02:07 PM

Warning: The phone call is a 911 emergency recording of a Lexus going 120+mph prior to crashing at the end of a highway...

http://consumerist.com/2009/10/toyota-911-call-of-familys-fatal-lexus-crash-due-to-gas-pedal-stuck-on-floormats.html


Mismatched floor mat implicated in catastrophic Lexus crash

http://www.leftlanenews.com/mismatched-floor-mat-implicated-in-catastrophic-lexus-crash.html

Memo Reveals Tragic Details Of Stuck Pedal Lexus Crash (Pics)

http://consumerist.com/2009/10/memo-reveals-tragic-details-of-stuck-pedal-lexus-crash-pics.html


This was a 2009 ES350.

[Edited on February 24, 2010 at 8:18 PM. Reason : .]

2/24/2010 8:18:21 PM

I can vouch for the stuck floormat issue, it's not all bullshit but I can see what Toyota is trying to pull. I was riding in the back of my sister's Tundra with my brother-in-law at the wheel a year ago, he gunned it on the interstate near DC to go around someone and then never let up with slower traffic up ahead. My sister started yelling that it's not funny and to quit playing around as we're hitting 90 and he's starting to get closer to slower moving vehicles. That motherfucker lifts both his legs and sticks the damn feet in her face and yells back he's not fucking around. While he's doing this acrobatic maneuver with his feet up in the passenger area he said he saw the ridges on the floormat holding the accelerator pedal and yanks it out. Needless to say I'm not sure how the fuck he managed to spin around and hit the brakes so damn quick but we were definitely about to run out of room. Scared the shit out me being a passenger in the back seat with no control over the situation but I'm glad he was pretty swift and lucky, too.

Toyota seems to be catching a lot more hell than other recalls, but I'm thinking it's partially their fault. Looks like they heard and/or experienced a few complaints about sticky accelerator pedals and shifted floormats and decided that saying these were the culprits would be a better response than admitting their electronics sensors/systems were an issue. I'd imagine the cost of recalling and replacing entire sensors, adding redundant sensors, or upgrading firmware for a soft safety trip would cost them tons more than replacing a pedal with a shim.

Either way, this makes it easier for me to buy another Toyota now.

2/24/2010 10:42:21 PM

Quote :

"Either way, this makes it easier for me to buy another Toyota now."

wat?

2/24/2010 10:52:33 PM

Fear created by the general public, whether educated or not concerning this issue, will depreciate the value of the vehicles as sellers will have a hard time convincing people to buy them.

This is the Audi 5000 TQ all over again.

2/24/2010 11:11:17 PM

lol, sure but given this whole scandal/recall regarding stuck gas pedals why would someone feel better about buying a Toyota!?

lmao

2/25/2010 11:26:15 AM