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President Barack Obama
"We are not going to ship back 12 million people, we're not going to do it as a practical matter. We would have to take all our law enforcement that we have available and we would have to use it and put people on buses, and rip families apart, and that's not who we are, that's not what America is about. So what I've proposed... is you say we're going to bring these folks out of the shadows. We're going to make them pay a fine, they are going to have to learn English, they are going to have to go to the back of the line...but they will have a pathway to citizenship over the course of 10 years."


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We also must refrom our immigration system to fix this problem. People are entering illegally because its too difficult and time consuming to come legally now. All we need to do to fix that is start an ellis island on the border with mexico. Anyone who comes can be swiftly moved into citezenship.

Also, working more closely with mexico to aid its development and itnerlink our economies is the best bet going forward. Producing a strong neighbor will not only give us more border security but it could provide more business opportunities in a north american economy. Creating jobs, boosting the economy and tax revenue all while crushing drugs, terrorism and other awful trades.

3/28/2010 1:02:15 AM

Quote :

"citezenship"

Quote :

"itnerlink"

3/28/2010 2:05:33 AM

Somebody writes for the Technician.

3/28/2010 2:14:33 AM

(on the subject of illegal immigrants from Mexico)

Quote :

"We're going to make them pay a fine, they are going to have to learn English, they are going to have to go to the back of the line...but they will have a pathway to citizenship over the course of 10 years"

This seems like a reasonable compromise.

Quote :

"crushing drugs, terrorism and other awful trades."

I bought some headies from a friend that grew them herself.
OMG WHAT AN AWFUL TRADE!!!!!!!!!!!! WE'RE AS BAD AS TERRORISTS!!!!!!1

[Edited on March 28, 2010 at 8:43 AM. Reason : ]

3/28/2010 8:41:36 AM

hey guys, lets start a system where people who come into the country pay a fine, have to learn english and they get put in some sort of line for approval

oh wait this seems vaguely familiar

3/28/2010 9:55:59 AM

THEY TURK OUR JURBS!

3/28/2010 10:24:32 AM

tkrjrbz

3/28/2010 11:22:39 AM

Yea it sounds like a reasonable compromise except

Quote :

"they are going to have to learn English"

is a flat out lie and he knows it.

[Edited on March 28, 2010 at 11:37 AM. Reason : if we force them to learn english, we're not respecting their culture]

3/28/2010 11:36:45 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States

3/28/2010 11:40:48 AM

They would have a grace period of years to learn english and pay the fee.

3/28/2010 11:41:14 AM

lololol and what happens after that grace period when they haven't learned english? Then the NYT and NPR play a bunch of sob stories about the poor people who can't afford to spend the time learning that white chauvinistic language and how racist it is for the conservatives to want to force them to learn it.

3/28/2010 11:43:28 AM

lol at mambagrl and the "grace period".
But seriously....Shouldn't citizens know a little bit of English? Am I a white chauvinistic for suggesting that?

Quote :

"if we force them to learn english, we're not respecting their culture"

That's only if learning English = forgetting Spanish. Can't we strive for a respectful and sensible multi-cultural approach?....many, if not most Americans are already multi-cultural. That's kind of our "thing".

3/28/2010 11:54:42 AM

you idiot - multi culturalism has nothing to do with american culture.

3/28/2010 11:56:07 AM

lol, what?

3/28/2010 12:00:30 PM

Why expect immigrants to speak English when a majority of our drooling population can't?

3/28/2010 12:01:57 PM

well that too, and that's why the "must learn english" portion of this crap is nothing more than a lie.

i mean how stupid do liberals think conservatives are??? I guess a lot

[Edited on March 28, 2010 at 12:06 PM. Reason : s]

3/28/2010 12:05:50 PM

3/28/2010 12:14:55 PM

fuck.

3/28/2010 12:49:28 PM

it doesn't really mattter because their children will learn english anyway.

3/28/2010 1:04:33 PM

well at least we're being honest here.

So now the "compromise" looks like this:

Quote :

"We're going to make them pay a fine, they are going to have to go to the back of the line...but they will have a pathway to citizenship over the course of 10 years"

What does, "go to the back of the line" mean anyway? Again, a few sob stories in a couple of years from NYT and NPR about how the evil racist conservatives are trying to keep brown people in the "back of the line" and not let them get jobs...

3/28/2010 1:11:21 PM

Quote :

"We also must refrom our immigration system to fix this problem. People are entering illegally because its too difficult and time consuming to come legally now. All we need to do to fix that is start an ellis island on the border with mexico. Anyone who comes can be swiftly moved into citezenship. "

We do not anymore uneducated, economic leaching, mass breeding immigrants. Sure it will be prohibitively expensive to remove the ones currently here, this though does not mean we need to welcome with open arms new ones or provide amnesty for the ones here. If they want to become citizens, they should finish up earning their monies here, go back to mexico and apply legally.

3/28/2010 1:17:38 PM

I agree with setting up Ellis island in texas.

Dude, the same thing was said about irish/italian/etc. immigrants in the last century... Immigration is our future. It is how we have always thrived. In fact, with all the debt we're packing on - you might even consider immigrants to be total suckers. Like, "haha dumbass now you have to pay off our debt" kind of sucker...

We need immigration. Let's just make it legal and controlled!

3/28/2010 1:20:06 PM

Quote :

"We do not anymore uneducated, economic leaching, mass breeding immigrants. "

I normally associate "economic leeches" with "people who don't work their asses off." I don't know what immigrants you've been talking to, but the ones I've lived next to and worked with labored like mad bastards.

Most of them also didn't have abnormally large families. When I worked translating at the Red Cross, most of the women were on the pill.

And yeah, the education level for a lot of the first generation is not high. So what? They're not coming over here to vie with Americans for jobs in neuroscience.

Quote :

"If they want to become citizens, they should finish up earning their monies here, go back to mexico and apply legally."

Let me translate for you: "If they want to become citizens, too fucking bad." For the majority of would-be immigrants from Mexico and the rest of Central America, legally obtaining citizenship is impossible. Not difficult, not time-consuming, but impossible, because of an inane quota system and hopeless immigration policy.

3/28/2010 1:28:29 PM

I, too, like rewarding bad behavior.

3/28/2010 1:36:07 PM

In a free market, immigration wouldn't be nearly as big an issue. You want to have people coming in and working. There wouldn't be the "dey derka derrbs" issue, because you wouldn't have a minimum wage, so there would be no advantage to hiring a foreigner over a citizen, unless the foreigner was just a better worker.

Immigration was a big deal in the early 2000s, but we have to look at why. Why was there such a huge influx of people coming in from Mexico and other countries south of the border? It was the real estate bubble. We were building and remodeling a shitload of houses, and the demand for labor was absurdly high as a result. Of course, construction firms would have much rather paid a Mexican 3 bucks an hour, and not have to deal with benefits and all the bullshit that is mandated for American workers.

3/28/2010 2:38:46 PM

Some of the illegals I know were making $25/hour and had their FICA withheld from their paycheck just like everyone else. Illegals don't pay less taxes, THEY PAY MORE because they never get any withholdings returned or see the benefits.

They were hired because they are superior to Americans, or at least better motivated.

3/28/2010 3:48:04 PM

Quote :

"I, too, like rewarding bad behavior."

Good point. I like the fee for entry. Drop the quota. Anyone with $1,000 can have an entry visa or $2,000 for a work visa, neither of which ever expires. Have them printed and laminated on-site. Make citizenship automatic after 10 years. This way, we get to be the good guys again, get to eliminate a massive underground labor market, and will not be rewarding bad behavior, as those who stood in line get in at the same time as those that did not, immediately.

Although we also need to eliminate the minimum wage, as the influx of workers are going to need jobs.

[Edited on March 28, 2010 at 4:56 PM. Reason : .,.]

3/28/2010 4:54:51 PM

Quote :

"Although we also need to eliminate the minimum wage, as the influx of workers are going to need jobs. "

We do need to eliminate it, and it would benefit a lot of people that are unemployed, but there are too many people in government that don't understand the economic problems that price controls on labor cause.

3/28/2010 9:06:06 PM

Quote :

"Some of the illegals I know were making $25/hour and had their FICA withheld from their paycheck just like everyone else. Illegals don't pay less taxes, THEY PAY MORE because they never get any withholdings returned or see the benefits. "

But all the ignorant backwoods people say they are not paying taxes even though more often than not they are getting witholdings but no refund.

3/28/2010 9:30:48 PM

If you pick up a group of illegals in your pick up truck to do some yard work, you sure as shit aren't paying them in anything other than cash.

3/28/2010 9:36:23 PM

Quote :

"Not difficult, not time-consuming, but impossible, because of an inane quota system and hopeless immigration policy."

I have to admit that I'm coming around more and more to Grumpy's point of view on this.

3/29/2010 12:33:12 AM

Quote :

"I, too, like rewarding bad behavior."

I get the whole "They violated the rules!" thing, but that doesn't make it bad behavior. We integrated schools, lunch counters, and buses, which I guess you could say was rewarding the "bad behavior" of Rosa Parks and the Woolworths bunch.

The real question is whether wanting to come to a great country -- a country that often won't shut up about how great it is -- to make a better life for yourself and your family qualifies as "bad behavior."

Quote :

"Anyone with $1,000 can have an entry visa or $2,000 for a work visa, neither of which ever expires."

In principle I don't have a problem with this. Many illegals are managing to come up with fairly large sums to pay people to smuggle them into the country. I think your proposed fees are a bit high, but those are details.

I still prefer the GrumpyGOP system: Let anyone who can pass a basic background check at an official crossing point into the country. I think the Mexican government would be more than happy to cooperate with us on this -- all we need is a name, photo, and fingerprints for everybody they convict of a crime. A very modest processing fee and short wait and you're in.

Meanwhile, shoot to kill anybody who crosses anywhere else.

Quote :

"Although we also need to eliminate the minimum wage, as the influx of workers are going to need jobs. "

Though I'm sure you have a good many reasons for hating the minimum wage, this isn't a particularly good one. Even with the current system immigration slows down dramatically when the job market here starts shrinking. Mexicans aren't stupid, and if their friends and relatives who are up here say that there are no jobs to be had they're not going to go through the trouble of coming up.

Quote :

"If you pick up a group of illegals in your pick up truck to do some yard work, you sure as shit aren't paying them in anything other than cash."

Do you think that the majority of illegals here are paying their way doing this type of work? And, if they are, do you think they're making enough that they'd have to pay income taxes anyway? Even the ones that do get paid under the table have to buy shit, and last time I checked nobody asked to see a green card before charging you sales tax.

3/29/2010 1:50:55 AM

Quote :

"Do you think that the majority of illegals here are paying their way doing this type of work? And, if they are, do you think they're making enough that they'd have to pay income taxes anyway? Even the ones that do get paid under the table have to buy shit, and last time I checked nobody asked to see a green card before charging you sales tax."

I don't know how many are doing that type of work, but I'm sure there are some. I don't have any data to look at. Point is, I think a lot of the work done by illegal immigrants is probably under the table. Sure, they pay sales tax, but I think most employers are going to be wary of reporting wages paid to illegals.

3/29/2010 3:06:18 AM

Quote :

"Point is, I think a lot of the work done by illegal immigrants is probably under the table."

And I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

If you're investigating a company, do you think it's easier to find out that they're not reporting a lot of their salaries or to find out that some of the employees are illegal? The first requires a quick look at the books. The other involves more in-depth research.

I'm sure a lot of smaller companies can pay under the table and escape notice, but then they're also likely to do so with American workers. Certainly I've had a couple of regular jobs where I was paid in cash, no reporting involved.

Come to think of it, a lot of my born-and-bred American friends and family members have, at one time or another in their adult lives, made a living under the table -- on farms, in small businesses, on their own trading one good or another.

---

Of course, there is a certain percentage that doesn't pay taxes. But there's also that percentage that probably pays more than their legal share, because their stuff gets withheld and they're not about to send a bunch of personal information to Uncle Sam trying to get a refund. Not when that uncle would just as soon deport their asses. And there's the percentage of those who don't pay taxes that wouldn't have to anyway because their incomes are so low. And there's the fact that people who don't pay taxes and aren't legally here can't draw on certain services like Medicare or Social Security.

[Edited on March 29, 2010 at 3:24 AM. Reason : ]

3/29/2010 3:21:06 AM

As a white kid in high school, I worked construction. I was paid under the table. I was pretty oblivious back then and thought it was the same as cutting grass like I'd been doing since I was 12. Now I realize it wasn't at all the same, really

3/29/2010 8:10:10 AM

Quote :

"Though I'm sure you have a good many reasons for hating the minimum wage, this isn't a particularly good one..Mexicans aren't stupid, and if their friends and relatives who are up here say that there are no jobs to be had they're not going to go through the trouble of coming up."

I am covering up a secret plan of mine. I don't want them to stop coming up under any circumstances, even if they punch a hole in the bottom end of the labor market (it could happen). My goal is to depopulate Mexico and much of south America in an attempt to reform those societies.

3/29/2010 10:11:53 AM

There is a very simple technique for keeping our immigration problem in check. People come to this country to work. Those people who give them jobs are here legally, and live here, and are often quite well off compared to other folks, which means they want to protect that lifestyle.

I don't blame illegal immigrants at all. It is simple economics, when the pay here is significantly more than they could earn elsewhere.

Here's what you do to keep illegal immigration down: Fine employers. Heavily. Require them to have proof that every employee is legal, and if they are ever caught, then there is a heavy fine, and it increases with each violation, ultimately resulting in possible jail time or the closing of their business.

This would put all of the onus on the employers, instead of the government. With every employer policing themselves, there would not be huge costs from the government. Also, people would begin to self deport as jobs closed up.

At the same time, I think you open up and don't necessarily give absolute amnesty, like what happened under Reagan, but rather open up a larger number of working visas and temporary worker programs, but they must pay appropriate fees and always stay in good standing, or it gets revoked. And then, if that gets revoked, then they can't get work, because employers are too afraid of what will happen, and they also already have a steady pool of legal temporary workers from the increased number of visas, and then those people will have to self deport.

3/29/2010 12:05:29 PM

^Check out E-Verify if you want to look into employer screening for undocumented aliens. It has the effect of dispersing undocumented immigrants to other areas, because they can't work in a city that requires E-Verify.

3/29/2010 12:11:52 PM

^ you idiot, he's describing a national system

3/29/2010 12:14:28 PM

Yes, I realize that... I hope you realize E-Verify is promulgated by DHS, and with all its faults, could become a mandatory national program. Do you know anything at all about E-Verify or employer screening? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

[Edited on March 29, 2010 at 12:25 PM. Reason : ]

3/29/2010 12:21:26 PM

Quote :

"And I'm pretty sure you're wrong. "

Sounds like speculation to me, man. Neither of us has any data to back up what we're saying, but it's impossible to know how much work is done under the table.

3/29/2010 12:37:57 PM

I was surprised that you would choose to detail a problem caused by local implementation of E-Verify in response to the idea of a nationally implemented employment verification system.

Care to explain wtf the specifically local problem of dispersement has to do with a national system?

[Edited on March 29, 2010 at 12:41 PM. Reason : s]

3/29/2010 12:41:00 PM

^Merely anecdotal evidence that those who know they won't pass the E-Verify process choose not to apply for those jobs, when jobs are unavailable, will leave the city. If your sole purpose in immigration reform is getting rid of the undocumented, then a program like E-Verify might suffice on a national level for the most part. But that won't solve the problem of unreported, under the table pay, or create a solution for the undocumented who truly have no choice but to be here. It was not a suggestion to use the program, but rather letting him know that there is something similar in place if he wanted to research the pros and cons of such a thing.

3/29/2010 12:46:11 PM

yes, and then you brought up a con which would be completely obviated by nationalizing the system. why did you do this?

3/29/2010 1:01:52 PM

I'm not sure what point you're trying to get to. I'm not in agreement that it's a "con" for one thing, or that it would be "obviated" by a national system. Furthermore, there is no need for you to analyze the anecdotal stories I post; no one questioned your irrelevant construction in high school stories. There's no need to be argumentative, especially when there's nothing in the post to argue about! What purpose does that serve?

Perhaps you weren't clear on the point I was trying to make: Dispersal of immigrants into other areas is supposedly a good thing. It means the program is keeping the undocumented out of areas they aren't wanted. This can be theoretically applied to a national system as well, and would on the surface mean that the dispersal would happen nationwide, and force them out of the country. Obviously this is just speculation at this point, but that's the general consensus at DHS right now as to expansion of E-Verify.

[Edited on March 29, 2010 at 1:12 PM. Reason : ]

3/29/2010 1:08:03 PM

Quote :

"Neither of us has any data to back up what we're saying, but it's impossible to know how much work is done under the table."

True. But there is data out there to the effect that illegals pay more into the system than they take out. As long as that's the case, what have you got to complain about?

3/29/2010 1:12:02 PM

Quote :

"There's no need to be argumentative, especially when there's nothing in the post to argue about!"

That's just what he does. Its easier to just ignore it.

3/29/2010 1:22:11 PM

Quote :

"True. But there is data out there to the effect that illegals pay more into the system than they take out. As long as that's the case, what have you got to complain about?"

My concern isn't that they're leeching off the system. They work hard, and usually for lower wages. I was speaking to the "they took our jobs" argument, basically saying that if it wasn't so expensive to employ a documented worker or citizen (through benefits, workers comp, taxes, etc), there would be no advantage to hiring an illegal.

3/29/2010 1:28:31 PM

Quote :

"People are entering illegally because its too difficult and time consuming to come legally now"

so because it is not easy enough, that justifies breaking the law?

3/29/2010 1:30:05 PM

It does for them. They don't give a shit about breaking the law, they're trying to survive. The worst case scenario is they get sent back to their country, which isn't all that likely anyway.

3/29/2010 1:33:42 PM