http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/news.jsp#/news

Quote :

"Including the $7,500 federal tax credit for which the Nissan LEAF will be fully eligible, the consumer's after-tax net value of the vehicle will be $25,280. The Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price *(MSRP) for the 2011 all-electric, zero-emission Nissan LEAF is $32,780, which includes three years of roadside assistance. Additionally, there is an array of state and local incentives that may further defray the costs and increase the benefits of owning and charging a Nissan LEAF - such as a $5,000 statewide tax rebate in California; a $5,000 tax credit in Georgia; a $1,500 tax credit in Oregon; and carpool-lane access in some states, including California."

So an all-electric 4 door sedan with a 100 mile range for a shade over $25k. That is actually pretty fucking amazing. I was pretty sure I wanted one before, but now I'm absolutely positive. Hopefully they follow through with their intention to make Raleigh one of the first test markets and we'll get them here at the end of this year.

[Edited on March 30, 2010 at 1:10 PM. Reason : :]

3/30/2010 1:08:27 PM

that's a lot of money.

3/30/2010 1:10:28 PM

lol @ "zero emission"

[Edited on March 30, 2010 at 1:14 PM. Reason : yeah, i'd never pay $25k for basic transportation]

3/30/2010 1:11:36 PM

great, so the taxpayer picks up a $10k tab everytime someone buys one of these.

3/30/2010 1:15:59 PM

I wonder how much a new battery is, and how long they last.

100 miles barely gets you to the far side of greensboro, so this is hardly a distance commuter and is now an expensive grocery getter.

3/30/2010 2:32:24 PM

^what? very few people couldn't get to work and back (and stop for a couple errands) on 100 miles a day, there is a lot of stuff between "commute way too far" and "grocery getter". For most drivers 100 miles is perfectly adequate.

3/30/2010 2:55:43 PM

i have to agree that 100 miles has gotta be adequate for most people

i mean, i drive an hour each way to and from work and it's only 120'ish miles. i don't know many other people who drive that far everyday

although the $25K price tag is still high for most people.. i mean, it's reasonably priced for what it is, i suppose..but i sure as shit would rather spend $10K on something else personally

[Edited on March 30, 2010 at 3:04 PM. Reason : asdf]

3/30/2010 3:03:34 PM

also, i really doubt it takes a single new battery..

3/30/2010 3:06:52 PM

also

nmsj

3/30/2010 3:17:03 PM

As a huge supporter of the Volt, the Leaf doesnt appeal to me. The variance in distance per charge is going to depend on a lot of things. You could get a cold snap and the battery barely be able to give you 50 miles of driving. The testers of the current plug in Mini's are finding this out the hard way.

GM has it perfect. Until the technology will allow super fast charging (think super capacitors instead of batteries) and long range, battery only vehicles will be a small niche. They need range extenders like the Volt to avoid range anxiety.

One thing I am happy to see is that the low price will require GM to price the Volt similarly. I expect the Volt to be in the 35-37 range before the rebate. I think the Volt will be a superior car in every manner, so a price premium is to be expected.

3/30/2010 3:20:50 PM

Quote :

"Buyers will need to pay an additional $2,200 for the necessary charging station and installation. Uncle Sam will throw another $2,000 tax credit your way for that equipment, though."

3/30/2010 3:45:03 PM

Don't know if that is actually a requirement or an option. With the Volt, you can charge with a high AMP circuit or standard wall outlet.

3/30/2010 3:51:47 PM

My issues with the Volt are that for one, it still uses gas. The whole point of moving to EVs is to decouple transportation from foreign sources of energy. It's probably our quickest path to energy independence. The Leaf will be powered by 100% domestic power (our electricity grid is mostly coal, nuke, and natural gas).

My other issue is the complexity of the drive train. It's obvious GM has had trouble getting the thing to work. It's specs have changed numerous times and we still don't have an official price. It's going to cost more than the Leaf, be more expensive to maintain, and ultimately less reliable.

The only advantage the Volt offers is greater range, but as battery tech improves and the infrastructure for EVs gets built up, pure electric will be the way to go.

3/30/2010 4:04:12 PM

Can we just get some diesel in this bitch?

3/30/2010 4:18:24 PM

Shrike, its not that I completely disgaree with you, but this stuff has to happen one step at a time. You are not going to wake up tomorrow and find all the problems with a strictly electric car have been solved. There needs to be a transition platform until e-technology can catch up and a E-REV is the way to go.

Quote :

"My other issue is the complexity of the drive train. It's obvious GM has had trouble getting the thing to work. "

What are your sources on this? I have seen no issue with drive trains. Its certainly not like what Tesla had. They have had this car timed down to near perfection during the last 3 years of development, and are going to deliver on time which is nearly unheard of for something like this. As to the price... They are doing a helluva lot more testing than Nissan. Nissan hasnt invested nearly as much as GM in development. They are probably coming down in price because their batteries are performing better in the lab in long term simulated tests than they expected, reducing the long term cost of warranty they thought they were going to have. They have also publically stated they are going to position the Volt to compete financially with the other players, so it makes sense to wait and see before pricing your car.

Quote :

"It's going to cost more than the Leaf, be more expensive to maintain, and ultimately less reliable."

I'm sorry, but thats really pulling a lot out of your ass. Without even taking in account the other parts of the quote, lets focus on reliability. Now I know you are probably talking about reliability as far as the volt having both an electric drivetrain coupled to a gas generator. But I can promise you Leaf owners are going to be stuck on the side of the road a lot more than Volt owners because they'll run out of juice. And if that doesnt happen, it will be because they dont drive the Leaf when they want to because they'll worry about not having enough on the battery. THAT is the real reliability.

On top of it, the Leaf is not a single car solution. You can't have the Leaf as your only vehicle. This car will essentially be a commuter car. If you add in the price of the SECOND car you will need to have for all your other driving, the Leaf is A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE.


[Edited on March 30, 2010 at 4:29 PM. Reason : .]

3/30/2010 4:25:11 PM

Nissan was smart. While everybody was dumping billions into hybrid R&D, Nissan leased Toyota's hybrid technology, used it in the Atlima and got better milage than a Camry Hybrid. Spent more money on fully electric R&D. And now they have beat everybody to the punch. Didnt GM test the EV1.......wwwwwwaaaaayyyyyy back in the 90s. How did Nissan beat them?

Number Crunch
Leaf $25,280
Versa $20,000 with similar options

Gas at $3.00 a gallon

15,000 miles a year, at $3\gallon, at 30mpg = $1500 a year in gas
15,000 miles a year, at $3\charge, at 100mpc = $450 in electric charges per year
Difference of $1150. Cost difference of $5280.
Years to recoupe price difference 4.6 years.

To me, doesnt seem worth it. After 4.6years and 69,000 miles, im sure those batteries will be shot.

When its all said and done, nothing beats diesel

3/30/2010 6:23:38 PM

^^I guess I'd rather we work on fixing the problems with all-electric than wasting time and money developing a "transition platform", as you called it. We've had hybrids for years now, we don't need another stopgap. The technology necessary for all-electric has been around forever, all Nissan needed to do was put it into an affordable car that people could use every day.

Besides that, Nissan isn't just putting this thing out in the wild without the infrastructure to support it. The test markets will be ready with charging stations, and more will be added as the nation wide roll out begins. Yeah, battery life is a "problem", but the Leaf will be a perfectly viable daily driver for most people who don't have super long commutes to work.

As for the Volt, I'm not pulling anything out of my ass. It's a car with an electric drivetrain and a gas generator. If you can't see how that will require more maintenance and have the potential for more problems than all-electric, I can't help you.

I agree the Leaf isn't for everyone, and people who buy it will either already have another car or will need one for longer trips. For those people who are ready to jump on the EV bandwagon though, the Leaf will meet all their demands at a lower price point than the Volt.

[Edited on March 30, 2010 at 6:34 PM. Reason : :]

3/30/2010 6:32:47 PM

I'd rather have a forged leaf son

3/30/2010 6:37:07 PM

Shrike, you are simply wrong. We absolutely need dual mode cars that have extended range. And honestly, I dont think the technology is going to exist to even allow the vast majority of the population to own an electric car as their sole mean of transportation for 10+ years.

That means the only way for us to get away from oil in any meaningful way will be to have a car that burns gas rarely, but is there when you need it.

3/30/2010 6:42:58 PM

Quote :

"Don't know if that is actually a requirement or an option. With the Volt, you can charge with a high AMP circuit or standard wall outlet."

fwiw you can charge using standard 110 which takes 6-8 hrs or 220 which takes around 2.

3/30/2010 7:51:11 PM

Putting my money where my mouth is. I called all the dealerships in Raleigh, found the ones with the lowest reserve slots, and am placing a deposit for the Volt.

3/31/2010 3:22:20 PM

Quote :

" The technology necessary for all-electric has been around forever, all Nissan needed to do was put it into an affordable car that people could use every day."

lol, what? It takes 1000lbs of batteries to equal the energy of 3 gallons of gasoline. There has been no technological breakthrough in battery tech for the last 20 years or so.

3/31/2010 4:37:20 PM

Quote :

"great, so the taxpayer picks up a $10k tab everytime someone buys one of these."

are the buyers not taxpayers? I'm confused.

3/31/2010 5:07:57 PM

The price is 33k not 25k. You can't consider the tax credit. Longterm that is not viable.

3/31/2010 5:18:13 PM

^why not?

haha...just found an iPhone app for range anxiety that will plot all the charge stations, give you turn by turn directions to them, tell you if they are being used or available, etc.

[Edited on March 31, 2010 at 5:23 PM. Reason : .]

3/31/2010 5:19:38 PM

Quote :

"lol, what? It takes 1000lbs of batteries to equal the energy of 3 gallons of gasoline. There has been no technological breakthrough in battery tech for the last 20 years or so."

I wasn't even talking about battery tech, but you're wrong about that too. Go read up on lithium iron phosphate batteries, which is what the Leaf is using. They charge faster, have a higher peak power (which is why the Leaf can reach highway speeds), and are much much safer than the batteries found in your laptop or cell phone. Also, the battery pack in the Leaf weighs 450 pounds.

[Edited on March 31, 2010 at 6:02 PM. Reason : :]

3/31/2010 6:00:04 PM

^my mistake. Unfortunately with an optimum range of 100 miles it still only has the energy equivalent of 3 gal of gas.

3/31/2010 9:46:47 PM

^ That's an optimum 3 gallons of gas...

Granted, I'm getting 35+mpg 3/1 city/highway ratio driving in the mx3 since I replaced the o2 sensor...

3/31/2010 10:05:42 PM

^^lol I barely get twice that range in the Evo and its Premium gas.

3/31/2010 11:03:59 PM

Quote :

"Number Crunch Leaf $25,280 Versa $20,000 with similar options Gas at $3.00 a gallon 15,000 miles a year, at $3\gallon, at 30mpg = $1500 a year in gas 15,000 miles a year, at $3\charge, at 100mpc = $450 in electric charges per year Difference of $1150. Cost difference of $5280. Years to recoupe price difference 4.6 years."

nice. now i have good reason to laff at anybody who buys this.

starting at 25k too. wow.

3/31/2010 11:23:43 PM

^ You know, what amazes me about people like you is that you probably have no problem buying a luxury car that costs a lot more than competitive sedans, offers zero return on your investment, and think its just fine. Or how is that "$3000 leather option" on your next car going to pay for itself? ITS NOT. Yet someone else out there has different motivations for what they want to pay for in a car, and you think thats stupid. What does that make you?

And I think you underestimate the upside of gasoline prices in the next few years. I dont even want to start on discussing peak oil, but with or without that, there is absolutely the possibilty of $5+ a gallon gas. At that price, you are going to be wishing you had something that didnt burn gas. For me, I am looking to assign a fixed price to a variable risk. By getting a volt, I won't have to buy much gas, and wont have to worry about a $300-400 a month gas bill in a couple of years if/when gas prices spike. If they don't, then so be it. I won't be upset.

For some people, they will buy this car because they dont want to burn gas, for political or environmental reasons, or both. For that reason, the price doesnt have to justify itself.



[Edited on April 1, 2010 at 9:37 AM. Reason : .]

4/1/2010 9:34:02 AM

Quote :

"$5+ a gallon gas"

i truly, honest-to-goodness, hope for this in the very near future...it's the ONLY way anyone in this ass-backwards country will push for sustainable change

pay now or pay later, but we're all going to pay one way or another

4/1/2010 9:43:08 AM

Ah yes, $5+ per gallon of gasoline...the stuff of dreams! Sure, if you want our economy to collapse. I'm gonna go with pay later since there's well over a 100 year supply of oil remaining. A good replacement will come along at some point, but trying to force something now (with artificially high oil costs for instance) won't do it.

It's possible gasoline might spike again in the near future, but it won't be b/c the world's supply is reduced. It's b/c in this retarded country of ours we haven't built any new refineries in 30 years.


If people want to buy a Leaf for commuter purposes (with a 30 mile per day commute it'd be perfect for me) that's great. But as previously mentioned most people cannot rely on this as their only vehicle. A Volt...you could.

[Edited on April 1, 2010 at 10:10 AM. Reason : k]

4/1/2010 10:07:07 AM

Quote :

"Sure, if you want our economy to collapse."

it's cute that you think $5/gallon would cause our economy to collapse

4/1/2010 10:10:01 AM

It's cute for you to think that our severely weakened economy wouldn't mind the huge blow that would come with gasoline over $5/gal.

4/1/2010 10:11:21 AM

^ oh, you're so silly...you see, i didn't say it wouldn't have any effect whatsoever, i just implied that you're an idiot for thinking it would cause our economy to COLLAPSE (you know, because that's what you said)

4/1/2010 10:14:49 AM

$5 a gallon gas would not collapse our economy, but it would significantly weaken it to the point of another recession and high inflation. It wouldnt be good.

With that said, I'd tired of pinning our hopes on increased production outputs, and the ability of other countries to supply us the energy we need to stay a world power. I'd just assume get out of that business. All I want is a solution developed that would allow many under high gas prices to get out of that situation.

Even with the Volt, we dont get there, because it is still too expensive for many, but unless we start pumping these vehicles out, they wont be available when we need them.

Some we say the market will take care of this on its on... I disagree. Just as we saw a couple short years ago, gas prices can rise quickly, but R&D on alternatively fueled vehicles do not. We need some help and time to get this ready.

4/1/2010 11:26:22 AM

Quote :

"With that said, I'd tired of pinning our hopes on increased production outputs, and the ability of other countries to supply us the energy we need to stay a world power. I'd just assume get out of that business. All I want is a solution developed that would allow many under high gas prices to get out of that situation."

The US has more combined energy resources than any other country. We don't "need" other countries to supply us energy to stay a world power. We'd just rather not use our own.

4/1/2010 12:45:14 PM

Quote :

"The US has more combined energy resources than any other country. We don't "need" other countries to supply us energy to stay a world power. We'd just rather not use our own."

while it's true that we do, technically, have plenty of energy sources, the truth is that many of them are not economically feasible to extract...it's a blatant falsehood that we can develop the infrastructure to tap the entirety of these resources at a reasonable cost within a reasonable timeframe

scholars with a better grasp on the situation than i argue that r&d is cheaper, not just in the long run, but in the short, as well

4/1/2010 1:07:31 PM

Quote :

"The US has more combined energy resources than any other country. We don't "need" other countries to supply us energy to stay a world power. We'd just rather not use our own."

well, that can be debated at length. 'Traditional' oil sources are not plentiful here anymore. And unless you know a way for us to triple our production in the very near future, what we have and are not using really isnt important to the topic of what is reality. The reality is we dont have anywhere near the production available to supply our own oil. The amount of time to get us out of that hole, if even possible, would take decades we don't have.

Its time to abandon oil as much as possible, and use a more diversified energy source which would be using power plants to charge cars (whose power would come from a multitude of plentiful sources).

4/1/2010 1:23:19 PM

everyone should just bury their poo and garbage in the back yard, set up a pipe for venting methane, and connect it to a bloom box sitting next to their house

4/1/2010 1:27:33 PM

If I came across this way forgive me, but I agree that we should develop as many energy options as possible.

As far as automobiles, I can definitely see a near future with streets populated by vehicles powered by fuel cells, natural gas, hydrogen power, plugin hybrids and full electric. However I also see gasoline powered cars still being there for a long time to come.

Also, here's an interesting tidbit to throw out there. I'm not sure if there's been an official announcement yet, but it looks like the next generation of Mercedes-Benz S-class sedans will ONLY be hybrids, i.e. not a single gasoline only model will be sold. There exception to this, however, will be all AMG models. Still, somewhat interesting. (and in the grand scheme of things I'm aware that MB's hybrid system is just a mild one)

[Edited on April 1, 2010 at 1:34 PM. Reason : k]

4/1/2010 1:34:26 PM

understood

4/1/2010 1:54:53 PM

Looks like the Mazda6 is getting a diesel engine option...projected 43mpg highway.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/31/mazda6-diesel-confirmed-with-hybrid-like-43-mpg/

4/3/2010 12:41:27 AM

can you charge this thing at your house or do you have to go to a special charge station and pay $3?


ok I looked it up. looks like you can plug it into your garage if you have an outlet similar to a washer/dryer outlet

[Edited on April 3, 2010 at 1:04 PM. Reason : a]

4/3/2010 1:00:47 PM

^^ well, damn...now all i need is for my car to last until 2012

4/5/2010 9:59:55 AM

Quote :

"Its time to abandon oil as much as possible, and use a more diversified energy source which would be using power plants to charge cars (whose power would come from a multitude of plentiful sources)."

Not a personal attack here Carzin, because you probably know better, but statements like that scare me. As someone who works on the power grid (indirectly), electric cars terrify me, not because they aren't viable, but because people approach them in such a dumb fashion. "Lets instantly swap to electric cars and all our problems will be solved by our zero emission electric cars!" The power grid is not unlimited. Ironically, California, the state with the worst energy problem, is the one most likely to get legions of electric cars.

I wish I'd see more people approaching the energy problem as a whole rather than claiming EVs are going to solve it all. For example "EVs are going to be great, but California needs more nuclear plants to really support them" or something along those lines.

4/5/2010 10:42:14 AM

Jek, I am very knowledgable about the power grid. I am aware how little spare capacity we have. I also know that there are large amounts of spare capacity in the evenings, which is when I expect these cars to charge. The small amount of increase the commodity providers will see in the first 4-5 years during the day will barely be able to register, so I feel this issue will be something that will be addresses with current space capacity plans.

I am already a TOU-D user, and plan to only charge mine after hours. I suspect most drivers of electric cars will end up getting a fair amount of education on the matter by the power suppliers directly, and the suppliers will be forced to deeply incentivize evening charges.

4/5/2010 1:41:58 PM

Quote :

"Putting my money where my mouth is. I called all the dealerships in Raleigh, found the ones with the lowest reserve slots, and am placing a deposit for the Volt."

That's going to be a big change from the Z3, but it makes sense with your commute. Are you keeping the old car as a toy/weekend driver?

4/5/2010 2:29:16 PM

Yup. Keeping my car. My car is worth far more to me than the tiny amount I'll get in for a trade. I trust my car more at 240k miles than I would a lot of other 100k mile cars. Its just been too damned good to get rid of it.

Thats the plan, anyway.

4/5/2010 2:36:36 PM