Quote :

"A week after The Daily Caller’s Mike Riggs reported on an FDA raid at a Pennsylvania farm producing raw milk, a more civil debate has continued across the country. In Colorado, by using a loophole in a 2005 law, farms in that state have offered begun sharing their raw milk products — literally and figuratively. Now there are more than 60 farms in the state that get around the rules by privately selling shares of their actual cow herds to risk-taking, lactose-tolerate enthusiasts, who pay to board the heifers. And there are about 30 states that are currently permitting similar direct-to-drinking experiments. As the Denver Post describes it: Every afternoon, customers who own a portion of the [Lafferty's] dairy herd visit the 30-acre farm, pulling jars of the farm-fresh, raw milk from a small refrigerator in a spotless room next to the milking parlor. … The Laffertys, who have run a raw-milk cow share for the past year on their family’s longtime farm, say they build relationships with customers — customers they want to keep safe and healthy. … Raw milk boasts higher fat content than traditional whole milk. That gives it a creamy taste that raw milkers champion. Yet most of the 18 families who own 35 shares of the Laffertys’ cows drink raw milk for its health benefits, The family farms that have been producing raw milk and raw products say their biggest worry isn’t food borne illnesses and bacteria — it’s the FDA, the “the real villain in the story.”"

http://dailycaller.com/2010/05/05/raw-milks-popularity-spurs-debate-over-safety-health/#ixzz0n63b1EML

5/5/2010 7:54:27 PM

Raw milk is miles above processed milk. And raw goats milk is even better.

I understand the regulation if you're shipping milk all over the country, but it doesn't make sense that I can't buy it from my neighbors or farmers market. you can still have refrigeration or expiration requirements.

5/5/2010 8:05:21 PM

An article from The Independent several years ago:

http://www.indyweek.com/indyweek/drink-it-raw/Content?oid=1202527

5/5/2010 9:16:56 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the attractions at the state fair getting milk straight from the cow? Surely the state wouldn't be providing something hazardous to our health at a state fair right?

5/5/2010 10:02:32 PM

Personally I think they should handle raw milk in a similar fashion to raw oysters. Slap a label on the milk showing the risks involved in consuming it and let the consumers decide if they're willing to take that risk.

5/6/2010 1:32:32 AM

If I recall from the Independent article (I remember reading it when it came out), the real problem is the big dairy companies that can't really deal in raw milk and who don't want competition. The FDA is just enforcing the rules -- it doesn't have a choice. It's the legislators suckling at the teat of big dairy who are the assholes.

I've never had raw milk, but I'd like to try it. Personally I can't stand "regular" milk so maybe the better taste could get me to avoid being a man with osteoporosis.

[Edited on May 6, 2010 at 1:37 AM. Reason : ]

5/6/2010 1:36:43 AM

I've had raw milk when visiting my grandparents in California and I have to say it's pretty awesome.

Does anyone know the current rules on buying raw milk in NC. The Independent article talks about some legislation that was going to allow cow-shares but that was 3 years ago. Anyone know if it passed?

5/6/2010 4:42:31 AM

How great that certifiably dangerous drugs can be legally manufactured and sold in the country which not only kill, maim, and injure several millions yearly, but also harm and kill non-users, but there are stringent laws in place against fresh unprocessed milk!

5/6/2010 4:49:46 AM

Democracy at work.

5/6/2010 6:07:24 AM

You misspelled the key word:

Corporatocracy at work

5/6/2010 6:12:32 AM

Quote :

"If I recall from the Independent article (I remember reading it when it came out), the real problem is the big dairy companies that can't really deal in raw milk and who don't want competition. The FDA is just enforcing the rules -- it doesn't have a choice. It's the legislators suckling at the teat of big dairy who are the assholes."

The biggest reason they can't is biological as much as it is business or legal.

There is a firm and huge difference between a cow meant to give healthy, raw milk for consumption vs. maximum production corporate dairy cows.

There is no way to 'fix' the big producers' operations to make them healthy suppliers of raw milk. They would have to start back from scratch, or open a completely new farm.

You can't just have the average milk bypass homogenization and pasteurization and call it raw milk. Well, you can, but people really will die. The FDA and others have a point, in that respect. I just don't know if they can fathom that some cows just aren't what they see in factory farms.

[Edited on May 6, 2010 at 6:43 AM. Reason : l]

5/6/2010 6:42:45 AM

Quote :

"If I recall from the Independent article (I remember reading it when it came out), the real problem is the big dairy companies that can't really deal in raw milk and who don't want competition. The FDA is just enforcing the rules -- it doesn't have a choice. It's the legislators suckling at the teat of big dairy who are the assholes."

Quote :

"Corporatocracy"

Sounds about right.


For my entire life, I've wanted to unseat the corporate corner on the food industry. I've long supported organics, CSAs, stevia, raw milk, farmer's markets, residential vegetable gardening, etc. -- anything I can do to help slowly kill off the mega-corporations that all but control our food. (To any ELFs out there: Please mass murder Monsanto, and I'll cut you a check. Thanks in advance.)

Quote :

"There is no way to 'fix' the big producers' operations to make them healthy suppliers of raw milk. They would have to start back from scratch, or open a completely new farm"

Great! Fuck the big producers.

ALL FOOD, TO AS LARGE A DEGREE AS POSSIBLE, SHOULD BE LOCAL AND ORGANIC. PERIOD.
Go on and doubt this assertion as much as you want, but humans are fucked until we all realize it's true.)

[Edited on May 6, 2010 at 8:14 AM. Reason : ]

5/6/2010 8:12:35 AM

Monsanto sucks hard core.

Anyone know where in the Triangle you can procure raw milk?

5/6/2010 8:41:29 AM

^
I've always just gotten it "from a friend". Kind of like how you get moonshine, home-grown headies, or a decent hooker. You have to trust the source.

Another Independent article:
http://www.indyweek.com/indyweek/raw-milk-back-on-the-table/Content?oid=1208615 (2009)

Quote :

"Dr. Jeff Engel, the state epidemiologist, says drinking raw milk is dangerous, and he opposes any legal access to it. He told the Indy last year that if North Carolinians wanted it badly enough, they could travel to South Carolina."

What a douche. I think he's North Carolina State Health Director now. That's not good.

[Edited on May 6, 2010 at 9:11 AM. Reason : ]

5/6/2010 8:55:05 AM

Yeah I'm going to have to see about finding a source. There's a farm near my grandparents' place in SC that sells it but that's a bit far for regular use

5/6/2010 9:12:19 AM

Get enough tdubbers to chip in and buy a cow.

5/6/2010 9:43:18 AM

Quote :

"ALL FOOD, TO AS LARGE A DEGREE AS POSSIBLE, SHOULD BE LOCAL AND ORGANIC. PERIOD."

What, it's your food, as the apple-jax children say, eat what you like!

Quote :

"To any ELFs out there: Please mass murder Monsanto, and I'll cut you a check."

Do we need to call the police? Did you just offer money for someone to murder Monsanto employees?

Quote :

"Go on and doubt this assertion as much as you want, but humans are fucked until we all realize it's true.)"

What do you mean by fucked? Do you mean well fed and prosperous?

Quote :

"If I recall from the Independent article (I remember reading it when it came out), the real problem is the big dairy companies that can't really deal in raw milk and who don't want competition. The FDA is just enforcing the rules -- it doesn't have a choice. It's the legislators suckling at the teat of big dairy who are the assholes."

Absolutely untrue. Regulation usually requires a better narrative than that. Yes, the big producers love that the law cuts down on their competition, but lots of businesses want laws to cut down on their competition, that doesn't mean they get them. What happened here is the ever familiar "market failure" narrative, where one small unscrupulous raw-milk farmer poisons some of the populous, causing a widespread panic among milk consumers, causing milk consumption to plummet, and bankrupting honest hard working milk farmers through no fault of their own. As is so often said on the internet, when the market fails, the government should take over, as it has done in this case.

I say the opposite: markets fail, so we need more free markets.

[Edited on May 6, 2010 at 9:59 AM. Reason : .,.]

5/6/2010 9:47:07 AM

^^ Have they reallowed cow shares in NC? If they have I would definitely consider doing this. We can get a tdub cow and name her Mrs. Wuf

5/6/2010 9:48:47 AM

I was thinking Ambrosia but that would work too.

5/6/2010 10:28:34 AM

lol

5/6/2010 10:59:26 AM

Quote :

"The biggest reason they can't is biological as much as it is business or legal. There is a firm and huge difference between a cow meant to give healthy, raw milk for consumption vs. maximum production corporate dairy cows. There is no way to 'fix' the big producers' operations to make them healthy suppliers of raw milk. They would have to start back from scratch, or open a completely new farm. You can't just have the average milk bypass homogenization and pasteurization and call it raw milk. Well, you can, but people really will die. The FDA and others have a point, in that respect. I just don't know if they can fathom that some cows just aren't what they see in factory farms."

This is an important take on the topic. I'm surprised no one has responded to this.

The key of the issue really lies here - that milk cows along with slaughter cows are treated as badly as the regulators will allow.

I would love to drink raw milk (I've heard a lot of good things about it, and the less pasteurized milk I've tried in other countries is to die for), but I wouldn't THINK about it unless I could 100% verify that the the cow was grass/hay fed, lived in open spaces, and wasn't pumped full of hormones. Not only that, but you can't wait to drink it. The less processing you do to it, the sooner it goes bad. You need to gulp that thing down in a day. And the supply chain has to be like nothing we have right now.

Coming back to the threat of someone becoming sick due to a mismanaged operation... "this is why we can't have nice things". The product we're discussing is dangerous unless produced responsibly, and the government has made a rule saying "NO" to all cases because of this.

If the market can't figure out how to audit a producer sufficiently to assure that a product is made responsibly, then WTF kind of society do we live in?

5/6/2010 11:13:48 AM

^
One where giant corporations and the government, not consumers, decide what products are available.
In other words, one that is not free. No one ever said that freedom was 100% safe.

5/6/2010 11:17:52 AM

Hasn't it been shown in numbers that more people drop dead from eating contaminated spinach and chicken than they do raw milk? Granted the percentage of the population that consumes raw milk is much lower but I can't imagine the illness numbers would greatly outstrip that of other common contaminated foods as long as raw milk was produced locally and sustainably.

5/6/2010 11:29:44 AM

I, too, hate Monsanto

but then again I work for Syngenta

5/6/2010 2:59:14 PM

Wendell H. Murphy is one of the main villains in government working on behalf of these mega food corporations that have destroyed the quality of american food.

Its funny that processed American milk is banned in much of Europe because the r-bgh hormone can cause cancer, yet the FDA doesn't even require companies to say its been used on the label and then they want to go after raw milk.

5/6/2010 4:22:10 PM

Well, that's not evidence. Protectionism runs high in Europe. They use any excuse to ban foreign agricultural goods, such as genetic engineering, etc.

5/6/2010 6:20:52 PM

The FDA is rediculous. Even if their was a major concern about drinking raw milk, if people take the time to hit up the farm to get it then fuck em. Let them get sick. Darwin wins either way.

Overboard government regulation is nauseating.

5/6/2010 6:58:06 PM

With "both sides" on board, why can't we tame the FDA?

5/6/2010 8:08:29 PM

Its not an over-regulation problem. Its a corporate regulation problem. Huge corporations are raising cows in feces and injecting them with artificial hormones that make them produce carcinogenic milk while the little guy is being harassed. Typical capitalism.

5/6/2010 8:44:22 PM

no, typical corporatism.

5/6/2010 9:05:23 PM

Quote :

"Its a corporate regulation problem."

Yup. Namely that the regulation exists in the first place. If instead the FDA were an informational body who tests and certifies but does not regulate, similar to the UL, there would be no laws preventing the little guy from selling his product. The only barriers the little guy would face is simple market competition and forces.

Instead we chose to empower the FDA with the force of law and, as any student of history could tell you, that force of law was corrupted and bought by the very people whom the law is supposed to be keeping in check. Another perfect example of why giving the government, and especially the federal government, any power to control or regulate should always always be a move of last resort and as limited in scope as possible.

When the FDA was envisioned, surely no one thought that it would be used to actually ban real and natural foods, but that is precisely what has happened here. And make no mistake, all of the fools pushing for an FDA regulation of "organic food" will soon find that what you call "organic" and what the FDA calls "organic" are two totally different things, and your garden grown tomatoes won't be on the winning side of that battle.

5/6/2010 11:00:47 PM

there is a reason the FDA wants milk to be pasteurized see brucellosis and bovine tb (not to mention other). But you're right you should have the choice to be stupid

5/6/2010 11:40:03 PM

^ Yep. If people have the choice to smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, and eat HFCS, why not have the choice to drink raw milk?

5/12/2010 7:19:17 AM

^ That's a lousy line of reasoning, mostly because the government has tried(or is trying) to prevent people from consuming these products. Really what it comes down to is that people are (should be) free to do as they wish with their own bodies as long as they aren't harming anyone else, government busy bodies be damned.

5/12/2010 7:41:25 AM

^
Exactly.
The government should NOT have ANY interest in whether an individual is being unhealthy, harming themselves, or endangering themselves.

(Believe it or not, if the government would simply enforce the law, preventing and/or prosecuting fraud, corporate monopolies, etc.... and if we would elect politicians that ignore lobbyists that advocate measures that reduce consumer freedom/power, then everyone would do just fine.)

I always thought more liberals would agree with the fact that we own our bodies.
If I want to smoke, eat junk food, get pierced or branded, have elective surgery to look like a lizard, cut off my finger, skydive, fire walk, etc. (and I don't harm or risk harm to anyone else,) then it is my business and my business only. No law, tax or regulation should restrict any individual's right to full autonomy over their own body. (Again, this sounds so liberal, I simply don't understand how so many Democrats disagree.)

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 10:07 AM. Reason : ]

5/12/2010 10:04:28 AM

raw milk is some foul shit.



I think the appeal for most of you is that it makes you seem edgy (looking at you indy).

fuck that.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 10:12 AM. Reason : .]

5/12/2010 10:12:30 AM

I've enjoyed the taste of raw milk when I've had it but I also grew up on creamline milk so maybe that's why.

5/12/2010 10:27:39 AM

Why can't they just make an exception for raw milk from family farms and be done with it? There's obviously a demand for this shit.

5/12/2010 10:48:45 AM

Quote :

"If I want to smoke, eat junk food, get pierced or branded, have elective surgery to look like a lizard, cut off my finger, skydive, fire walk, etc. (and I don't harm or risk harm to anyone else,) then it is my business and my business only"

right. except when you fuck up and make poor choices guess who's stuck paying for the consequences...

5/12/2010 10:52:13 AM

^^
The last thing the government/industry powers want to do is establish the precedent that consumers can get what they want. To them, consumers are to be told what they want and can get what they're offered.

^
Well, that shouldn't be. We shouldn't have a system where an individual's irresponsible choice is payed for by taxes -- that individual should be responsible for the cost.

There's been a policy creep with this, and in the opinion of many, it has the power to trigger a civil war.
It goes like this:
1) Pass laws that socialize the needs of individuals. (The medical industry.)
2) Use the fact that taxes now pay for everyone to incentivize laws that protect us from ourselves. (health care)
3) Pass laws that prohibit, tax, or otherwise regulate individual civil liberties. (Anti-smoking laws. Soda tax. Raw milk ban.)

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 11:24 AM. Reason : ]

5/12/2010 11:22:38 AM

So I actually read up on this...and I don't see why the FDA can't just slap a label on raw milk, just like they do with unpasteurized juices already, saying "WARNING: This product has not been pasteurized and, therefore, may contain harmful bacteria that can cause serious illness in children, the elderly, and persons with weakened immune systems." They appear to be singling out milk for some reason.

5/12/2010 11:42:53 AM

Quote :

"right. except when you fuck up and make poor choices guess who's stuck paying for the consequences..."

Which is exactly why government programs to pay for personal stuff are a bad idea. As soon as you let the government pay for something, you have given them free reign to dictate everything about that something and everything that could be related to that something. For further examples on that, see the drinking age and 55 MPH speed limits

5/12/2010 1:24:28 PM

If a bunch of people drink raw milk and get sick, and then have to be hospitalized, then it costs the goverment money, because now they are paying for your health insurnace.

5/12/2010 1:42:12 PM

Quote :

"Yes, the big producers love that the law cuts down on their competition, but lots of businesses want laws to cut down on their competition, that doesn't mean they get them."

Agricultural lobbies frequently do.

And I don't believe I said that the large firms caused the law to be created, but they are the driving force that keeps it around. And if your poison milk narrative is true, do you think panic spread by itself or do you think it had help?

5/12/2010 2:05:43 PM

Quote :

"If a bunch of people drink raw milk and get sick, and then have to be hospitalized, then it costs the goverment money, because now they are paying for your health insurnace."

Kinda like the trillions in losses that smoking and alcohol cause, both of which are legal?

5/12/2010 2:08:44 PM

Everybody's gotta die of something.

5/13/2010 2:25:34 AM

Quote :

"Pass laws that prohibit, tax, or otherwise regulate individual civil liberties. (Anti-smoking laws. Soda tax. Raw milk ban.) "

Except the raw milk ban has been around for much longer than everything else you're talking about.

5/13/2010 4:10:04 AM

^

Quote :

"Pass new laws or defend old laws that prohibit, tax, or otherwise regulate individual civil liberties. (Anti-smoking laws. Soda tax. Raw milk ban"

Quote :

"They appear to be singling out milk for some reason."

Perhaps that reason has to do with:
1) how monolithic the dairy industry is
2) how much money the dairy industry give though lobbyists

Government: "Citizens want to buy raw milk. Will you guys produce it?"
Dairy Industry: "Nah, but here's some money."
Government: "Attention citizens: raw milk is too dangerous and will remain illegal."

Quote :

"Everybody's gotta die of something"

Government: "We own you, and will use force to keep you alive as long as possible. You have no right to die."

[Edited on May 13, 2010 at 11:22 AM. Reason : ]

5/13/2010 11:21:41 AM