Do embed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1lw-DOlpmA

Quote :

"A Swedish artist who created an international furore by depicting the Prophet Muhammad as a dog was assaulted as he delivered a university lecture. Lars Vilks says he was head-butted by an audience member as he spoke about the limits of artistic freedom. ... "A man ran up and threw himself over me. I was head-butted and my glasses were broken," Mr Vilks was quoted as saying by the AP news agency. ... A video clip of the attack was posted on the website of a Swedish newspaper. It showed police using pepper spray and batons to control an angry crowd shouting "God is great" in Arabic as Mr Vilks was led away. Two people were detained. Earlier this year, Mr Vilks was the target of an alleged murder plot involving Colleen LaRose, an American who called herself "Jihad Jane". She has pleaded not guilty, but faces life in prison if convicted. In 2007, a group linked to al-Qaeda in Iraq offered a $100,000 (£66,000) reward for killing Mr Vilks, and a 50% bonus if he was "slaughtered like a lamb" by having his throat cut."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8676351.stm

Quick poll: How many of you think Mr. Vilks "got what he deserved," or that he "brought this on himself"?

5/12/2010 9:25:49 AM

Quote :

"he spoke about the limits of artistic freedom"

Well, he found the limit he was talking about, didn't he?

"brought this on himself": YES
"got what he deserved,": NO

(In the same vein as if you were to call someone's wife a slut and then get punched in the face. Yes, you brought it on yourself, but no, assault is still illegal)



[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 9:33 AM. Reason : ]

5/12/2010 9:33:39 AM

OMFA YOU DREW A PICTURE! I KILL YOU! ALLAH AKBAR AYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYA

5/12/2010 9:41:40 AM

na, I don't think he deserved it.


How does drawing a picture warrant a physical attack on someone? Talk about escalation. I wonder if he would do it all over again knowing what he knows now.

5/12/2010 9:43:11 AM

^3

I think "brought on himself" implies more than just cause and effect. I guess what I would ask is whether you think Mr. Vilks should have expected this kind of outrage, given his actions. And if that's the case, then what does that say about the Muslim world (or at least its most vocal representatives)?

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 9:46 AM. Reason : ]

5/12/2010 9:44:53 AM

same thing rape says about the male sex

5/12/2010 9:46:09 AM

Would a picture of "Jesus as a dog" have elicited the same response from Christians around the world? Would there be riots, protests, and killings? How about a picture of King David, the Dalai Lama, Buddha, or Joseph Smith?

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 9:51 AM. Reason : ]

5/12/2010 9:48:20 AM

If the Islamic community (huge and diverse and not really a community, I know,) thinks that they get a special pass, they're wrong. Free speech, parody, satire, etc. applies to all subjects. The solution to this problem is for as many people as possible around the world to create and display derogatory Muhammad depictions, as often as possible. Police can form hundreds of stings, rounding up the crazy violent Muslims, (small minority of all Muslims, I know,) and prosecuting them. Perhaps also, we should educate the greater Islamic community about free speech, so they can attempt to pacify Islamic extremism and nip much of the violence in the bud.

5/12/2010 9:49:03 AM

Quote :

"The solution to this problem is for as many people as possible around the world to create and display derogatory Muhammad depictions, as often as possible."

If nothing else, it would make it more difficult for violent Muslims to target individual artists or publications. It would also be a good display of solidarity with those cartoonists living in constant fear for their lives.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of Western media is too scared to publish anything like that.

Interestingly, the AP video above actually clips off the first few seconds of the incident. I wasn't sure why at first. If you watch the video posted at MSNBC, you can see that the slide on the screen appears to be a medieval painting of the prophet (I wonder how long it will be before MSNBC pulls the video).

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/37096670#37096670

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 9:59 AM. Reason : ]

5/12/2010 9:58:39 AM

Another reason I don't care for this flavor of religion (or religion at all).

5/12/2010 9:59:23 AM

Swedish police officers all look like Peter Pan.

5/12/2010 10:00:09 AM

Isn't that why we have the everyone draw Mohammed day? Except even the person who started it has bailed because she's afraid of the backlash.

5/12/2010 10:15:45 AM

^^^^
Good point about the display of solidarity.

Quote :

"Unfortunately, the vast majority of Western media is too scared to publish anything like that."

Who needs 'em anyway? If everyone is doing it, they'll eventually have to get on board. When one out of every few people has a Muhammad picture -- on their website, on their blog, on their car, on their shirt, on their notebook or and backpack, etc.... when Muhammad pictures are everywhere -- on youtube, on stickers and posters, stenciled in graffiti, etc. how could "big media" continue to ignore it?


^
One person can't start it -- thousands have to.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 10:20 AM. Reason : ]

5/12/2010 10:19:37 AM

I guess the idea would be to round up a bunch of people and have them all do it simultaneously, although that wouldn't be half as ballsy as what these guys did.

5/12/2010 10:28:03 AM

Quote :

""brought this on himself""

"She was asking for it"

5/12/2010 10:28:48 AM

5/12/2010 10:33:24 AM

Ha, well I'll be damned.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/comic-riffs/2010/04/apologetic_draw_muhammad_carto.html

Guarantee she got a death threat.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 10:43 AM. Reason : ]

5/12/2010 10:36:33 AM

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 11:07 AM. Reason : .]

5/12/2010 10:48:58 AM

^^that's what I was referring to. Religious people...

5/12/2010 10:56:45 AM

"pictures of piglet"


lmao

5/12/2010 1:37:05 PM

Quote :

" guess what I would ask is whether you think Mr. Vilks should have expected this kind of outrage, given his actions. And if that's the case, then what does that say about the Muslim world (or at least its most vocal representatives)?"

Well of course he should have expected it (and duh, he did it BECAUSE it would cause outrage). I mean, you would have to be living in a cave to not know about such things in today's world.

What does it say about the Muslim world? I already talked about this in a thread in chit chat:

message_topic.aspx?topic=593490&page=1#13942435

Quote :

"I don't think the non-radical ones really give a shit [Edited on April 25, 2010 at 8:46 PM. Reason : kinda like how the non-radical xtians don't care when South Park has Jesus taking his own name vein]"

Sorry, completely wrong.

I don't care (I was raised Muslim), but that's because I have enough doubts about the religion to begin with. I am in am extremely tiny minority, however.

Normal non-radical Muslim, even ones who don't particularly pray or observe other rituals, give a shit. And a big shit. I have heard professionals (engineers, teachers, etc) saying people who mock the prophet should be punished and/or killed. And these are not radicals, just normal people with families and regular lives.

The official death threats are issued by the radical groups, but what do you see in the streets of poor Muslim countries when cartoons are made? Normal people rampaging through streets, destroying property, burning down McDs, BKs, chanting death threats to the cartoonists and to their respective countries (and to Israel for good measure), etc. Those are not radicals in their daily lives, they are just common people. But they get so enraged because of their [mostly] blind love and faith, that they go insane. OK, it is only the poor uneducated ones who do it, so the poverty and illiteracy compounds it many-fold, but as I said, even professionals feel the same way, but from comfort of their homes.

'Tis strange for y'all, I know. Believe me, I find it strange too.

5/12/2010 1:42:53 PM

Quote :

"I have heard professionals (engineers, teachers, etc) saying people who mock the prophet should be punished and/or killed. And these are not radicals,"

No...they're radicals

Anybody who thinks mockery deserves death, is a fucking radical

5/12/2010 1:59:26 PM

Well in that case, 75% of Muslims are radicals.

5/12/2010 2:01:07 PM

^^^^
That's not Mohammed, that's a Benjaminite!
http://www.thebricktestament.com/judges/girls_of_shiloh_abducted/jg21_15-16p18.html

5/12/2010 2:03:14 PM

Quote :

"Would a picture of "Jesus as a dog" have elicited the same response from Christians around the world? Would there be riots, protests, and killings? How about a picture of King David, the Dalai Lama, Buddha, or Joseph Smith?"

Well sure, nobody would care if you made Jesus as a dog.

But what if you were to, say, cast a black male in the role of Jesus in a play, or use aa black child in a living nativity, or maybe even create a depiction of the Virgin Mary out of elephant shit.

I think you'd probably see a lot of people protesting.

[not justifying either reaction, I'm just saying that the crazy is all around]

5/12/2010 2:06:15 PM

Our batshit crazy protestors stand on the side of a road with signs. Their batshit crazy protestors murder people.

5/12/2010 2:14:31 PM

5/12/2010 2:16:13 PM

Except the abortion nuts. But religiously, not so much.

5/12/2010 2:17:16 PM

In the Arab world, you don't draw political cartoons painting your leaders in a negative light. You also don't draw religious cartoons like that. Completely different culture that would be difficult for a westerner to understand.

So from their point of you, he got what he deserved and brought it on himself.
From our point of view as westerners...chill out dude, its just a cartoon.

5/12/2010 2:45:08 PM

Quote :

"Except the abortion nuts. But religiously, not so much."

Abortion nuts aren't religious nuts?

5/12/2010 3:32:06 PM

Most abortion nuts are religious nuts, but only some religious people are nuts.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 3:40 PM. Reason : ]

5/12/2010 3:38:19 PM

Wasn't that his original point? *their* extremists are bad, ours just stand there with signs? I was just illustrating that christians have some pretty fucked up extremists too.

Also, depends on your definition of nuts. Delusion can be described as a mental illness.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 3:43 PM. Reason : .]

5/12/2010 3:43:30 PM

Quote :

"Well in that case, 75% of Muslims are radicals."

hmm.

5/12/2010 3:51:02 PM

Quote :

"OK, it is only the poor uneducated ones who do it, so the poverty and illiteracy compounds it many-fold, but as I said, even professionals feel the same way, but from comfort of their homes."

The people wailing "Allahu Akbar" at the university in Sweden didn't appear to be poor. A lot of radicals (and terrorists) are wealthy and well-educated.

Quote :

"In the Arab world, you don't draw political cartoons painting your leaders in a negative light. You also don't draw religious cartoons like that. Completely different culture that would be difficult for a westerner to understand."

I think that's a fairly racist thing to imply, that all Arabs are religious fanatics who can't understand the concept of free expression, and who turn into a bunch a raging lunatics at the sight of a cartoon. You're right that it's a cultural divide, but it's not between Westerners and Arabs, it's between liberalism and Islamism.

5/12/2010 3:51:46 PM

Quote :

"I think that's a fairly racist thing to imply, that all Arabs are religious fanatics who can't understand the concept of free expression, and who turn into a bunch a raging lunatics at the sight of a cartoon. You're right that it's a cultural divide, but it's not between Westerners and Arabs, it's between liberalism and Islamism."

I said ARABS...I didn't say religious fanatics because there is a difference. Yes all Arabs are Muslim (except in very rare occasions that I have yet to encounter) but not all Arabs are fanatics.

Their culture is tied in closely with their religion. Its not racist at all for me to say that. I grew up there after all but I'm not Arab, I'm Egyptian and Christian.

This is a divide between Westerners and Arabs for both political reasons and religious ones.

Quote :

"who turn into a bunch a raging lunatics"

And I Said they would think he deserved it and brought it on himself...I didn't say they would all do the same thing given the opportunity. The vast majority of Arabs are civilized (even more so than Americans in my experiences living here in some cases )

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 3:58 PM. Reason : .]

5/12/2010 3:55:36 PM

The question is dumb. Of course he should have seen it coming and no he doesn't deserve it.

If a woman walks naked through a group of gang bangers should she deserve to be raped? Would anyone not see it coming?

5/12/2010 3:59:55 PM

Dude... Norrin Radd...NSFW

5/12/2010 4:02:06 PM

Quote :

"Wasn't that his original point? *their* extremists are bad, ours just stand there with signs? I was just illustrating that christians have some pretty fucked up extremists too"

When he said, "But religiously, not so much.", he meant our religious nuts in general -- not all of them are abortion nuts.
You pointing out that abortion nuts are violent doesn't speak to the general religious nuts group, which he is saying is not so much violent. You'd have to suggest that: abortion nuts are often violent (sure), and that religious nuts are mostly abortion nuts (no).

5/12/2010 4:02:39 PM

I just thought it was dishonest to suggest that there are no violent Christian (or american, since DeltaBeta just said theirs and ours) religious nuts.

5/12/2010 4:13:30 PM

There are religious nuts for all religions

The media is just more focused on the Muslim nut at the moment which is where they want all of our attention focused.

5/12/2010 4:22:00 PM

Quote :

"The media is just more focused on the Muslim nut at the moment which is where they want all of our attention focused."

This tends to happen when a group flies planes into skyscrapers, explodes themselves (along with scores of civilians) by the thousands, and assassinates Western artists. And that's without even mentioning what happens when they do seize control of a state (which is, after all, their goal).

Quote :

"The question is dumb. Of course he should have seen it coming and no he doesn't deserve it. If a woman walks naked through a group of gang bangers should she deserve to be raped? Would anyone not see it coming?"

Would you say the woman "brought it on herself"? I wasn't just asking about cause and effect.

Quote :

"I just thought it was dishonest to suggest that there are no violent Christian (or american, since DeltaBeta just said theirs and ours) religious nuts."

I don't think anyone suggested that, but I do think it's fair to acknowledge that the number of violent acts committed by the "pro life" crowd, when compared to the number of violent acts committed by Islamists, is fairly inconsequential.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 4:40 PM. Reason : ]

5/12/2010 4:35:20 PM

In recent memory, sure.
Aggregated over the history of each respective religion, I'm not so sure.

Yes, I'd say the woman brought it on herself. But ultimately the rapists are responsible for their own actions since they are humans.

Just as the assaultants are responsible for their actions.

5/12/2010 4:44:28 PM

Quote :

"This tends to happen when a group flies planes into skyscrapers, explodes themselves (along with scores of civilians) by the thousands, and assassinates Western artists. And that's without even mentioning what happens when they do seize control of a state (which is, after all, their goal)."

lol. That was so 2001...come on now.

5/12/2010 4:57:43 PM

It's odd the right flips out when people say the 10 commandments shouldn't be in gov. building, but they can't understand why muslims flip out when their religions beliefs are trampled.

It's dumb to be violent about a cartoon, but that's what happens when people take their religion seriously. It's a good thing most of our Christians don't actually care about Christianity that much otherwise we'd be in the same boat.

But I also think it's ironic that the undertone of the people saying that muslims are more violent than present day non-muslims is that we would be justified in waging war against those countries on the basis that theyre muslims.

5/12/2010 6:17:20 PM

please. that is your most retarded post ever.

5/12/2010 6:31:14 PM

how insightful.

5/12/2010 6:32:20 PM

I'm conservative and I don't think the 10 commandments should be in government buildings.

5/12/2010 6:45:46 PM

Quote :

"It's dumb to be violent about a cartoon, but that's what happens when people take their religion seriously. It's a good thing most of our Christians don't actually care about Christianity that much otherwise we'd be in the same boat."

Christians take their religion seriously. Obviously not ALL Christians, just like not all Muslims take theirs seriously. I know plenty of Muslims both living abroad (outside of Arab countries) and in Arab countries that drink alcohol, eat pork, etc.

5/12/2010 6:49:42 PM

Quote :

"It's odd the right flips out when people say the 10 commandments shouldn't be in gov. building, but they can't understand why muslims flip out when their religions beliefs are trampled. "

Compare and contrast "the right flips out over 10 commandments" to "muslims flip out over cartoons" please. Thxu.

5/12/2010 6:58:00 PM

Quote :

"how insightful."

and appropriate.

5/12/2010 7:03:57 PM