WHINE WHINE WHINE TEA PARTY WHINE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WHINE OBAMA WHINE PELOSI WHINE TAXES WHINE SPREADING WEALTH WHINE SOCIALISM WHINE

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-05-10-taxes_N.htm

Quote :

"Amid complaints about high taxes and calls for a smaller government, Americans paid their lowest level of taxes last year since Harry Truman's presidency, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data found. Some conservative political movements such as the "Tea Party" have criticized federal spending as being out of control. While spending is up, taxes have fallen to exceptionally low levels. Federal, state and local taxes — including income, property, sales and other taxes — consumed 9.2% of all personal income in 2009, the lowest rate since 1950, the Bureau of Economic Analysis reports. That rate is far below the historic average of 12% for the last half-century. The overall tax burden hit bottom in December at 8.8.% of income before rising slightly in the first three months of 2010."

5/13/2010 10:25:29 AM

my tax rate is 26.8% combined state/federal. I'd be cool w/ 9.2%

[Edited on May 13, 2010 at 10:48 AM. Reason : that ignores sales and property taxes of course.]

5/13/2010 10:45:25 AM

Tax revenues have fallen due to high unemployment and underemployment. People making less money = people paying less taxes.

[Edited on May 13, 2010 at 10:53 AM. Reason : ]

5/13/2010 10:49:11 AM

My objections aren;t to being taxed, its that those taxes dont do anything useful. Kids aren't being educated, we waste a shitload on defence, we still give tons of money to special interestests like unions, banks, farmers, etc... We have massive entitlement spending (which im paying for but wont be there when i get old) because we dont educate our population and instead encourage bad jobs with inflated wages that destroy any possibility of economic freedom/mobility.

When that shit changes I wont mind taxes, but until then get fucked.

5/13/2010 10:52:43 AM

Quote :

"SHITLOAD ON DEFENCE"

5/13/2010 10:56:08 AM

That's considered a legitimate spelling of defense.

God, I'm sure you're cool with the billions of dollars in taxes that go toward killing people in foreign countries, or funding faith-based initiatives, or doing things that are generally useless. You better be cool with it, because you have no choice but to pay taxes, unless you want to go to jail. The government forces you to participate in the killing of innocent people, and you happily oblige, and assert that anyone that doesn't want to be forced to do the same is a wingnut.

When taxes start costing people more than the basis necessities of life, there's a problem. It doesn't even matter that taxes fund really stupid things. The real tax hasn't even come yet. For the tens of trillions of dollars of debt that we have, and the trillions more in unfunded liabilities, we will either have to increase taxes, cut spending, or inflate. There are no other options. None of those options are good for the average person.

5/13/2010 12:43:29 PM

My beef isnt necessarily with the percentage as it is with the fact that so many are completely excluded from income taxes all together.

everyone should have to be pay something

5/13/2010 1:29:56 PM

While I conceded that most of the Tea Party are utter pillocks ...

Quote :

"Some conservative political movements such as the "Tea Party" have criticized federal spending as being out of control. While spending is up, taxes have fallen to exceptionally low levels."

Does not compute. If only our government even attempted to make spending equal to tax revenue. The statement almost echoes the Tea Party case - too much spending, too much debt.

Quote :

"Federal, state and local taxes — including income, property, sales and other taxes — consumed 9.2% of all personal income in 2009, the lowest rate since 1950, the Bureau of Economic Analysis reports."

Does not compute. No one gives a shit about the combined rate at which all personal income for the country is taxed. Everyone cares about the rate at which THEIR SPECIFIC personal income is taxed.

5/13/2010 1:47:19 PM

This thread has never been done before.

5/13/2010 2:14:58 PM

Quote :

"I'd be cool w/ 9.2%"

+ infinity

[Edited on May 13, 2010 at 2:50 PM. Reason : the heaviest burden, of course, falls on the most productive of us. ]

5/13/2010 2:50:02 PM

I'd be happy with twice that. We are currently sitting at a marginal rate of 40.4 % (state+ss+medicare+fed) with another 7.65% being paid to the government in payroll taxes form our employers. And for those that will argue that its total, rather then marginal, that are the correct measure my total taxes were 27% of income last year (not counting taxes paid in the forms of car, property, gas, and other sales), with that sliding up for every extra dollar made form over time, performance bonuses and short term investing. So yes, there are those of us mid class had working families that feel like we have being taxed to death.

[Edited on May 13, 2010 at 3:07 PM. Reason : fail math]

5/13/2010 3:06:58 PM

dont tell the hippies that. you can still live on 50% of your income. what are you, greedy?

5/13/2010 3:09:04 PM

of course, people who will never have to pay a significant amount of taxes such as God have no problem volunteering others' earnings to corporate bailouts, unjust wars, and entitlements.

5/13/2010 3:10:20 PM

^^ damn right i am, 10s of thousands spent on college educations between us, 45 hour work weeks as a norm (50-70 for me on crunch times or things on fire), constant training and education to keep up with evolving technologies, etc. I think anyone that's doing this deserves the right to nice things and to want/get/have more then those that aren't putting in that kind of effort. The opportunity is there for everyone, its just wanting it enough to do the work.

5/13/2010 3:36:58 PM

i hate the lazy working poor. they never work 45 hour weeks.

5/13/2010 7:06:39 PM

Many would argue that the opportunity is there due to the taxes you pay. I imagine I get taxed more than most of you, and I'm fine with it.

5/13/2010 7:07:28 PM

Quote :

"The BEA classifies Social Security taxes as insurance payments and excludes them from the tax calculation."

So the numbers exclude a tax of 6.2% - 15.3% on your income (depending on whether they also excluded the medicare portion of the FICA tax and whether you are self employed or not).

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Also theres crap like this:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/25965.html

It's easy to make total taxes as a percentage of total income really low if you exclude a large chunk of those taxes, and then ensure that a large number of earners don't pay any taxes, making up for it by charging those that do pay taxes even more.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/show/26292.html

Quote :

"Despite these problems of data definition, the headline's claim about 2009 being a year of historically low taxes isn't far off. Tax Freedom Day, which is calculated by taking total taxes divided by a broad income measure, NNP (which is somewhat close to personal income), had a rate of about 26.6 percent in 2009, which was the lowest since 1959."

5/13/2010 7:33:38 PM

Quote :

"Many would argue that the opportunity is there due to the taxes you pay. I imagine I get taxed more than most of you, and I'm fine with it."

Must be nice, man. For someone starting out, straight out of college and into a recession, it's already pretty fucking difficult to save a substantial amount of money. It'd be nice if I didn't have to flush 15.3% of my wages down the toilet every two weeks in order to pay into a defunct, forced savings plan that I'll never, ever personally benefit from, unless I become disabled sometime soon. It'd also be nice if I wasn't forced to pay taxes in order to fund shit that I find morally reprehensible.

I have to hope that the younger generation is figuring this out. Obama didn't change shit, he's just making things worse. All I want is to be able to make a decent living and live my life without constantly having to search for ways to hedge against destructive government policies. The fact that it takes years of education to properly understand and navigate tax laws in the country says enough.

5/13/2010 9:22:05 PM

Quote :

"My objections aren;t to being taxed, its that those taxes dont do anything useful. Kids aren't being educated, we waste a shitload on defence, we still give tons of money to special interestests like unions, banks, farmers, etc... We have massive entitlement spending (which im paying for but wont be there when i get old) because we dont educate our population and instead encourage bad jobs with inflated wages that destroy any possibility of economic freedom/mobility."

EXACTLY

Pretty soon NY, California, and Mass will be asking the government for a bail out to cover its budget deficit. Glad i'm paying taxes to pay the pension benefits for overpriced civil servants and for hyper-inflated union salaries for those employed by government contracts.

5/13/2010 9:57:13 PM

Its already happening. I live in VA and NC has already borrowed over 2B from the Feds to fund thier unemployment benefits. (which congress is looking to extend further) But you are correct, there will be much much more coming.

5/13/2010 10:24:29 PM

Quote :

"For someone starting out, straight out of college and into a recession, it's already pretty fucking difficult to save a substantial amount of money."

I found it the easiest right out of college, I already had 2 roommates so I was paying little for living expenses, I was able to put away most of my monthly income. I invested 1/2 into a savings account, and 1/2 into a US bond fund.

Quote :

"forced savings plan that I'll never, ever personally benefit from, unless I become disabled sometime soon"

So you'll never ever use it unless you need to use it?

Quote :

"Obama didn't change shit, he's just making things worse."

I'm sure you won't do it, but I credit him with getting us out of a spiraling recession, I think many others do as well.

5/13/2010 11:07:04 PM

Quote :

"So you'll never ever use it unless you need to use it? "

What he is saying is that most people his age probably have a better chance of being mauled by a tiger then getting any sort of decent return (if any) on his forced savings investment. However, he is open to the possibility that if the mauling does happen soon he might get something out of it.

Quote :

"i hate the lazy working poor. they never work 45 hour weeks"

greater then 35% of the countries adults have a yearly income that is less then that of a person working 45 hours/week at minimum wage (assuming that 5 hours of that is payed at 1.5x minimum). So yea, there's a lot of slackers out there

5/13/2010 11:28:07 PM

^ They're not taking the opportunities that are poured down like manna from heaven. Slackers.

5/13/2010 11:39:25 PM

I just don't understand why we waste so much money on civil servants, $1000 hammers, redundant labor on government private contractors yet cut funding for shit that really does matter like education. Then they still complain about not having enough money (local, state, federal) and use this as an excuse to increase task.

Realistically congress could probably fund its healthcare plan if they were to trim the fat and gross waste of money spent on other shit.

Quote :

"1/2 into a US bond fund."

Try investing in the market. Any 20-yr old pouring 1/2 his income or even retirement savings into US bonds is a fool and is losing countless fortunes in opportunity costs. US bonds are for 50 yr old men who want annuities and stable safe investments so they can retire in the next decade.

I trust my money more with Cramer and the swindlers at Goldman Sachs then I would with the US debt.

[Edited on May 13, 2010 at 11:53 PM. Reason : l]

5/13/2010 11:49:56 PM

50 billion a year to middle east allies

5/13/2010 11:51:55 PM

Quote :

"What he is saying is that most people his age probably have a better chance of being mauled by a tiger then getting any sort of decent return (if any) on his forced savings investment."

Well that's not completely fair, benefits may disappear or be greatly reduced by the time we are 65, but if we cut them off now, we'd probably end up paying for those people anyways, so much of it is a cost we wouldn't be able to avoid.

Quote :

"Try investing in the market. Any 20-yr old pouring 1/2 his income or even retirement savings into US bonds is a fool and is losing countless fortunes in opportunity costs."

I have money in the market now, I had money in bonds circa late 2008, I put it in as a hedge against the market as I had just been employed by a large brokerage house, and feared cutbacks etc, should the market turn down, luckily it turned out I was right, I didn't suffer any cutbacks (they hit the older employees), I made a cool 10% off of my bonds, which I promptly invested in domestic large caps and financial. I don't really need any advice on how to invest, I write market analysis software.

Quote :

"US bonds are for 50 yr old men who want annuities and stable safe investments so they can retire in the next decade."

Generally that's true, but they are a great hedge against the market as people flood to the stability of bonds.

Quote :

"I trust my money more with Cramer and the swindlers at Goldman Sachs then I would with the US debt."

US debt isn't really that bad if you look at it, we have a smaller debt as percentage of GDP than many other countries like Germany, the UK, Israel, or Japan. Cramer and Goldman Sachs love instability, that's when there's serious money to be made, but the stability of the US government is something that you can put a bit more faith in.

5/14/2010 12:59:01 AM

Quote :

"but the stability of the US government is something that you can put a bit more faith in."

Wow..that's scary. What makes you think politicians are any more trustworthy and competent than non-politicians?

5/14/2010 11:15:02 AM

stupid thread is stupid. the combined tax rate means nothing since that includes people not paying taxes. what matters is the individual, cumulative tax rate (income, property, sales, etc, etc, etc.)

5/14/2010 11:21:41 AM

Quote :

"Wow..that's scary. What makes you think politicians are any more trustworthy and competent than non-politicians?"

It's not so much that politicians are any more trustworthy, it's that a government check will never* bounce. So provided you still expect your government to be around and printing money with value when you cash out, a bond is a less risky investment.

5/14/2010 1:31:11 PM

^^ sales and property taxes vary too widely by location and are local taxes anyway. They dont really fit into a discussion on federal taxes.

5/14/2010 1:59:42 PM

Quote :

"What makes you think politicians are any more trustworthy and competent than non-politicians?"

The US government has stability because of its citizens and their businesses.

5/14/2010 4:17:28 PM

^
Citizens and business are not stable right now..and the government is making things worse.

5/14/2010 10:41:54 PM

Quote :

"I'm sure you won't do it, but I credit him with getting us out of a spiraling recession"

I keep hearing this, can you explain what effect you think he had?

Ive heard people talk about the Tarp helping stabilize banks and trust.

5/14/2010 11:17:17 PM

Quote :

"Citizens and business are not stable right now"

Sure they are. I don't see any riots or violence. What they are doing is what they do best, spending, thus stabilizing businesses.

Quote :

"I keep hearing this, can you explain what effect you think he had?"

You must not have been paying attention during this whole thing. I was paying very close attention, as every speech the president made would have an immediate effect on the market. When he would talk bad about business and speak as though he wasn't going to help them or he was going to punish them, the market would decline rapidly at that very moment. Meanwhile when he began to talk of injecting money into the market to adjust for the change in aggregate demand, the market would quickly rally, or at least stabilize. This is all based on correlation, however, and I don't really expect to convince you, nor do I want to get in "uh huh/nah uh" kind of debate.

5/14/2010 11:45:00 PM

Quote :

"I don't see any riots or violence."

Clearly a fine measure of stability.

Quote :

"When he would talk bad about business and speak as though he wasn't going to help them or he was going to punish them, the market would decline rapidly at that very moment. Meanwhile when he began to talk of injecting money into the market to adjust for the change in aggregate demand, the market would quickly rally, or at least stabilize. "

The market responded positively to good news and negatively to bad? Tell me more.

5/15/2010 1:15:18 AM

I know a couple people who can't wait to be significantly taxed!!!

Y'all rich capitalist should get to work starting these businesses that are gonna employ people.

What's stopping you? Taxes are waaaaay lower than they used to be a few decades ago.

Get on it, folks. Seriously, start some businesses. I'm looking forward to your success.

5/15/2010 2:38:20 AM

Quote :

"Clearly a fine measure of stability."

I'd say any country that has rioting and outbreaks of violence has a good level of instability. So against that gauge we're doing pretty good.

Quote :

"The market responded positively to good news and negatively to bad? Tell me more."

That would assume you think "bailouts" and "government debt" are good news. I mean I think they are in a recession, and I think the market agrees with me, but there are more than a few people in this thread that would disagree.

5/15/2010 2:58:33 AM

So basically our entire economy hangs on one man's words. Its a theory, Ill give ya that.

5/15/2010 9:55:22 AM

Quote :

"I found it the easiest right out of college, I already had 2 roommates so I was paying little for living expenses, I was able to put away most of my monthly income. I invested 1/2 into a savings account, and 1/2 into a US bond fund."

That's cool. You joined TWW in 2002, so I'm going to guess you graduated before things got this bad.

Quote :

"So you'll never ever use it unless you need to use it?"

It's not even supposed to be for disability, it's forced retirement savings. I will not get to use it for that purpose. Social Security is already bust, and like all ponzi schemes, the last ones are the real losers. Only with real ponzi schemes, I can choose to participate or not participate. With social security, there is no choice.

Quote :

"I'm sure you won't do it, but I credit him with getting us out of a spiraling recession, I think many others do as well."

Haha. We're not out of the spiral, unfortunately. Things are getting worse, and they'll continue to get worse. Obama doesn't understand the economy or what makes it function, and nearly every step he takes is away from the free market and towards depression. In his mind, government is what allows an economy to thrive.

[Edited on May 15, 2010 at 10:26 AM. Reason : ]

5/15/2010 10:25:59 AM

Quote :

"So basically our entire economy hangs on one man's words. Its a theory, Ill give ya that."

Not all of it, but at one point, most of it.

Quote :

"That's cool. You joined TWW in 2002, so I'm going to guess you graduated before things got this bad."

Take some responsibility for your situation. It's not up to the government to give you a good paying job, if you can't get the job you want, you should work harder, stop blaming the government.

Quote :

"I will not get to use it for that purpose. Social Security is already bust, and like all ponzi schemes, the last ones are the real losers."

Well like I said, we'd be paying for those people anyways most likely. What you should do is take control of your own retirement.

Quote :

"We're not out of the spiral, unfortunately."

Sure we are. We're back around 10k, unemployment is starting to decline, we are certainly not still in the spiral. If we were, nothing would be going up or even staying the same. That's the definition of a spiral.

5/15/2010 12:29:25 PM

Quote :

"Take some responsibility for your situation. It's not up to the government to give you a good paying job, if you can't get the job you want, you should work harder, stop blaming the government."

I am taking responsibility for my own situation. I work, save money, and invest. The problem is that I have to adjust my behavior to account for government policies. The government is destroying jobs. They've taxed and regulated business to the point that the United States is no longer a competitive place to start a business. Every dollar that goes towards a public sector job is a dollar that can't be invested in the private sector. Government has doubled in size since 2000. The government is a cancer, siphoning life from the real economy.

Quote :

"Well like I said, we'd be paying for those people anyways most likely. What you should do is take control of your own retirement."

Uh, what? I wouldn't be paying for those people. I'm forced to pay for them. The problem here is that more and more people are paying into the system for a single person. A culture of dependency has been developed that now lived on Social Security. It has to be phased out, or the upcoming generation is start looking for opportunities elsewhere.

Quote :

"Sure we are. We're back around 10k, unemployment is starting to decline, we are certainly not still in the spiral. If we were, nothing would be going up or even staying the same. That's the definition of a spiral."

Sometimes, I wonder if you're straight up trolling, or if you're really as delusional as your posts seem to suggest. How can you possibly work for an investment firm and think that the dow is a good indicator of a strong economy? Did you graduate from NC State? How are you so naive?

The spiral is government debt. Every dollar that is borrowed is another nail in the coffin. We won't pay off this debt legitimately. You must know that.

5/15/2010 12:51:42 PM

Is Kris no longer an avowed Communist?


Also, I'd love to see taxes go lower, and if we were doing things right, I think they could, but at this point, we've made our bed by being fucking stupid, and we're going to have to sleep in it. We need some massive spending cuts (to the point of fundamentally changing our collective view of government) and then some time to climb out of the hole before we can have more tax cuts.

[Edited on May 15, 2010 at 2:10 PM. Reason : ]

5/15/2010 2:09:17 PM

Quote :

"I am taking responsibility for my own situation."

It seemed like you were placing all the blame on the government for the difficulty you've had to face in getting a job after school. It's a lot of work for anybody, even when the economy was in full swing.

Quote :

"The government is destroying jobs."

You could say they are damaging long term growth or risking the instability of the government's budget, but its very difficult to argue that injecting money into the economy destroys jobs.

Quote :

"Every dollar that goes towards a public sector job is a dollar that can't be invested in the private sector."

That's just not true, the economy is not zero sum.

Quote :

"Government has doubled in size since 2000."

Quote :

"I wouldn't be paying for those people. I'm forced to pay for them."

Chances are that if we didn't have social security and medicare, you'd be paying for them through some other means, no civilized nation would let it's old people cruelly die off and starve, there'd be some other program you'd have to pay for to sustain them.

Quote :

"It has to be phased out"

It has been, the number of people with supplemental retirement plans has skyrocketed over the past years.

Quote :

"How can you possibly work for an investment firm and think that the dow is a good indicator of a strong economy?"

Because it is. Even if you don't think it is, most investors do, thus when it moves, they respond, making it self-fulfilling, even if it doesn't at root indicate a strong economy, as a result, it always will be a gauge of investor confidence in the economy.

Quote :

"The spiral is government debt."

We're talking about a different spiral then. I was talking about spiraling recession, you seem to be talking about government debt, which wouldn't be a spiral at all.

Quote :

"We won't pay off this debt legitimately. You must know that."

We don't need to, all we have to do is keep sustaining growth.

Quote :

"Is Kris no longer an avowed Communist?"

I still believe in communism, but I work as a capitalist.

5/15/2010 3:16:41 PM

Quote :

"I still believe in communism, but I work as a capitalist."

I know how you feel. I still believe in liberty in Obama's big-gov America.

5/17/2010 1:00:27 AM

I believe capitalism is the step between feudalism and communism

5/17/2010 1:05:29 AM

I believe communism is inherently contrary to human nature, so much so that it will never work.

5/17/2010 1:14:24 AM

Human nature is a myth. Man's ability rise above nature and control it is what has gotten us to where we are.

5/17/2010 1:27:27 AM

Agree to disagree. We haven't come very far from a behavioral standpoint, but our technology keeps getting better. I think we've got a better shot at reaching GoldenViper's ideal technocracy than we do of ever seeing a healthy, functional communist society.

5/17/2010 1:48:29 AM

communism works on a small scale because the community can hold individuals accountable for not contributing or for taking more then their share. On a national scale, motivated self-interest and lack of this type of accountability lead to corruption and a failure of the system. Please note i also realize theirs corruption in capitalism, but at least there are plenty of opportunities to climb the economic ladder and join in on it.

5/17/2010 9:28:00 AM

See Kris...there are a few people left who recognize the inherent evil of socialism..and the ultimate failing of communism.

5/17/2010 10:01:04 AM