Lock this if necessary but I didn't see another thread for this that wasn't already defensive in the title....IE "Hey Pro lifers what do you have to say about this??"

So where do you stand and why?

7/5/2010 9:51:36 PM

pro life = anti-murder

pro choice = pro-murder

that's where i stand

why? because abortion = murder, plain and simple

a fetus is a human. i don't give a shit about the legal definition of human and the ensuing skirting-the-issue discussions. a baby inside the mother is a HUMAN BEING/HOMO SAPIENS.


[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 9:56 PM. Reason : ]

7/5/2010 9:53:57 PM

pro-choice

on the one hand women ought to have control over their own bodies and not get shackled into motherhood just because they got raped or lapsed on the pill and forgot to bring a condom

on the other hand unwanted children are more likely to become violent criminals or dependent on welfare

also the population is increasing too quickly

7/5/2010 9:54:52 PM

^^I agree. I think "pro-choice" is a misnomer.

[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 9:55 PM. Reason : asdf]

7/5/2010 9:55:26 PM

wrote some more

7/5/2010 9:56:43 PM

agreed more

7/5/2010 9:57:02 PM

you must not care about the well-being of women

and it's odd that fundies care more about the unborn than about the born

7/5/2010 9:57:08 PM

Government gets to control a woman's body. By making abortion illegal, you're introducing a slippery slope that gives government control over a woman's body. You're taking away a personal freedom. Who knows what other controls the government may legislate in the future. Will it have the power to force sterilization? Will it have the power to make motherhood mandatory? Will it next take away the right to use other birth control methods such as The Pill?

"Back alley" abortions would increase if it were made illegal, leading to increased risk of young women dying or becoming sterile. Regardless of what laws are in place, there will always be young women out there who want to have an abortion. They may not want to face the wrath of their parents, the embarrassment at school, or the lifetime responsibility of motherhood. If we criminalize abortion, many woman will simply look for other ways to get rid of the child. They could starve themselves or seek unlicensed "back alley" abortions. So instead of getting an abortion in a controlled environment where there is one last chance for counseling on options, women may subject themselves to a potentially dangerous situation. These type of methods often lead to sterility or other harm, even death.

It's arguably better for society to have babies aborted than have them be brought up poor and neglected, where not only will the child suffer but society when that child develops a higher attraction to crime, welfare, etc. This is probably a controversial point but it has to be said. Without legalized abortion, a lot more women will become parents whether or not they want to be and whether or not they're ready to be. Raising a child properly is a full-time labor intensive process. The children who are neglected or abused are usually the ones that grow up to be drug addicts, lifelong government aid recipients, and criminals. Do we want to subject the child to such misery? Do we want to saddle society with the added burden? Some people say, "What if Abe Lincoln's mom had an abortion?". You could also ask, "What if Adolf Hitler's or Saddam Hussein's mom had an abortion?"

One brief mistake can take away a woman's childhood and trap her for life. We all make mistakes in our life, especially when we are young. The pressure to have sex at an early age is fierce in today's society. Even a girl who lives a good, responsible life can have one slip up. But that one slip-up can take away all her life plans and trap her. She may have planned to go to medical school, train for the Olympics, travel the world, or just have fun while she's still young. All this can be thrown down the drain with one brief mistake. We shouldn't penalize someone for life.

Giving up a child for adoption can be just as emotionally damaging as having an abortion. Women develop an emotional bond with a child when they carry it through the full term and go through the experience of delivery. Giving up that child for adoption might be the only reasonable option for a young girl too immature or poor to raise a kid. However, the women now has to live with a feeling of abandoning their child for the rest of her life. Why do you think so many adoptive parents seek out their kids when they're grown? There's no doubt that some women suffer psychological damage from having an abortion; however, the damage done from giving a child up for adoption is much worse.

Abortion is not murder because it is performed before a fetus has developed into a human person. A fetus doesn't become a real human being until it is physically delivered from a mother's womb. If you define a fetus as a human, are you going to go back and say a sperm or egg is a human? Should we ban birth control altogether then since we'd be killing a "human"?


I definitely just typed all that out. Ok not really. But that's where I stand.

7/5/2010 9:57:26 PM

Quote :

"Abortion is not murder because it is performed before a fetus has developed into a human person. A fetus doesn't become a real human being until it is physically delivered from a mother's womb."

my answer

Quote :

"a fetus is a human. i don't give a shit about the legal definition of human and the ensuing skirting-the-issue discussions. a baby inside the mother is a HUMAN BEING/HOMO SAPIENS."

7/5/2010 9:59:54 PM

Quote :

"you must not care about the well-being of women and it's odd that fundies care more about the unborn than about the born"

You make three fundamental and incorrect assumptions in your post.

1. That I don't care about women.

2. You assume that the well-being of women surpasses the well-being of a fetus. Please defend this.

3. You assume that all cases of abortion have to do with the well being of a woman.

7/5/2010 10:01:10 PM

^ exactly

studies have repeatedly shown that a big majority of

abortions = birth control

NOT rape
NOT physical health danger to mother
NOT mental health issue
etc


[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 10:08 PM. Reason : ]

7/5/2010 10:04:09 PM

really this argument is about where life starts, and the rights one has over something that is a part of their body and completely dependent on them. i don't think it is as easy as simply stating that a fetus is a human like their is some kind of consensus to that fact.

7/5/2010 10:11:44 PM

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

Quote :

"Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy. But this can happen to anyone, including women who are strongly anti-choice. So what does an anti-choice woman do when she experiences an unwanted pregnancy herself? Often, she will grin and bear it, so to speak, but frequently, she opts for the solution she would deny to other women -- abortion. In the spring of 2000, I collected the following anecdotes directly from abortion doctors and other clinic staff in North America, Australia, and Europe. The stories are presented in the providers' own words, with minor editing for grammar, clarity, and brevity. Names have been omitted to protect privacy. "I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia) "I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas) "In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts) "We too have seen our share of anti-choice women, ones the counselors usually grit their teeth over. Just last week a woman announced loudly enough for all to hear in the recovery room, that she thought abortion should be illegal. Amazingly, this was her second abortion within the last few months, having gotten pregnant again within a month of the first abortion. The nurse handled it by talking about all the carnage that went on before abortion was legalized and how fortunate she was to be receiving safe, professional care. However, this young woman continued to insist it was wrong and should be made illegal. Finally the nurse said, 'Well, I guess we won't be seeing you here again, not that you're not welcome.' Later on, another patient who had overheard this exchange thanked the nurse for her remarks." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta) "We saw a woman recently who after four attempts and many hours of counseling both at the hospital and our clinic, finally, calmly and uneventfully, had her abortion. Four months later, she called me on Christmas Eve to tell me that she was not and never was pro-choice and that we failed to recognize that she was clinically depressed at the time of her abortion. The purpose of her call was to chastise me for not sending her off to the psych unit instead of the procedure room." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)"

7/5/2010 10:13:02 PM

^^^^^^I disagree with that last paragraph; I prefer the concept expressed by the Supreme Court of "viability" (a fetus becomes a legally separate person when he or she could reasonably survive a premature birth).

Keep in mind that the vast majority of abortions are performed as soon as possible after the pregnant woman discovers her pregnancy, well within the first trimester, not long after leaving the embryonic stage. The more gruesome procedures, in which an unborn baby who appears almost ready to be a premie is removed via ID&X (now banned in the US) or D&E, are by far the exception, and their rhetorical use is misleading.

I also disagree with the characterization of the embryo or early fetus as a clump of tissue; I'm not sure whether this is in common use among abortion providers or advocates or rather a smear against them made by the enemies of reproductive freedom, but it's false after the blastocyst stage (early in embryonic development, before most women know they're pregnant).

[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 10:14 PM. Reason : the flames are getting hotter than a 4th of July cookout

7/5/2010 10:13:37 PM

Quote :

""Recently, we had a patient who had given a history of being a 'pro-life' activist, but who had decided to have an abortion. She was pleasant to me and our initial discussion was mutually respectful. Later, she told someone on my staff that she thought abortion is murder, that she is a murderer, and that she is murdering her baby. So before doing her procedure, I asked her if she thought abortion is murder -- the answer was yes. I asked her if she thought I am a murderer, and if she thought I would be murdering her baby, and she said yes. But murder is a crime, and murderers are executed. Is this a crime? Well, it should be, she said. At that point, she became angry and hostile, and the summary of the conversation was that she regarded me as an abortion-dispensing machine, and how dare I ask her what she thinks. After explaining to her that I do not perform abortions for people who think I am a murderer or people who are angry at me, I declined to provide her with medical care. I do not know whether she found someone else to do her abortion." (Physician, Colorado) "In 1973, after Roe v. Wade, abortion became legal but had to be performed in a hospital. That of course was changed later. For the first 'legal abortion day' I had scheduled five procedures. While scrubbing between cases, I was accosted by the Chief of the OB/Gyn service. He asked me, 'How many children are you going to kill today?' My response, out of anger, was a familiar vulgar retort. About three months later, this born-again Christian called me to explain that he was against abortion but his daughter was only a junior in high school and was too young to have a baby and he was also afraid that if she did have a baby she would not want to put it up for adoption. I told him he did not need to explain the situation to me. 'All I need to know', I said, 'is that SHE wants an abortion.' Two years later I performed a second abortion on her during her college break. She thanked me and pleaded, 'Please don't tell my dad, he is still anti-abortion.'" (Physician, Washington State) "The sister of a Dutch bishop in Limburg once visited the abortion clinic in Beek where I used to work in the seventies. After entering the full waiting room she said to me, 'My dear Lord, what are all those young girls doing here?' 'Same as you', I replied. 'Dirty little dames,' she said." (Physician, The Netherlands) "I had a patient about ten years ago who traveled up to New York City from South Carolina for an abortion. I asked her why she went such a long way to get the procedure. Her answer was that she was a member of a church group that didn't believe in abortion and she didn't want anyone to know she was having one. She planned to return to the group when she went back to South Carolina." (Physician, New York) "I once had a German client who greatly thanked me at the door, leaving after a difficult 22-week abortion. With a gleaming smile, she added: 'Und doch sind Sie ein Mörderer.' ('And you're still a murderer.')" (Physician, The Netherlands) "My first encounter with this phenomenon came when I was doing a 2-week follow-up at a family planning clinic. The woman's anti-choice values spoke indirectly through her expression and body language. She told me that she had been offended by the other women in the abortion clinic waiting room because they were using abortion as a form of birth control, but her condom had broken so she had no choice! I had real difficulty not pointing out that she did have a choice, and she had made it! Just like the other women in the waiting room." (Physician, Ontario) "A 21 year old woman and her mother drove three hours to come to their appointment for an abortion. They were surprised to find the clinic a 'nice' place with friendly, personable staff. While going over contraceptive options, they shared that they were Pro-Life and disagreed with abortion, but that the patient could not afford to raise a child right now. Also, she wouldn't need contraception since she wasn't going to have sex until she got married, because of her religious beliefs. Rather than argue with them, I saw this as an opportunity for dialogue, and in the end, my hope was that I had planted a 'healing seed' to help resolve the conflict between their beliefs and their realities." (Physician, Washington State) "I had a 37 year old woman just yesterday who was 13 weeks. She said she and her husband had been discussing this pregnancy for 2-3 months. She was strongly opposed to abortion, 'but my husband is forcing me to do it.' Naturally, I told her that no one could force her into an abortion, and that she had to choose whether the pregnancy or her husband were more important. I told her I only wanted what was best for her, and I would not do the abortion unless she agreed that it was in her best interest. Once she was faced with actually having to voice her own choice, she said 'Well, I made the appointment and I came here, so go ahead and do it. It's what's best.' At last I think she came to grips with the fact that it really was her decision after all." (Physician, Nevada) "We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does." (Physician, Washington State)"

7/5/2010 10:13:40 PM

^ so some people are hypocrites...

Quote :

"Keep in mind that the vast majority of abortions are performed as soon as possible after the pregnant woman discovers her pregnancy, well within the first trimester, not long after leaving the embryonic stage."

not saying i don't believe you, but could you point me to some data/link?

Quote :

"i don't think it is as easy as simply stating that a fetus is a human like their is some kind of consensus to that fact."

dude, you didn't read this in full.

Quote :

""a fetus is a human. i don't give a shit about the legal definition of human and the ensuing skirting-the-issue discussions. a baby inside the mother is a HUMAN BEING/HOMO SAPIENS.""

it is a HUMAN, as opposed to a pig or a whale or a salamander.


[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 10:20 PM. Reason : ]

7/5/2010 10:18:34 PM

Quote :

"I disagree with that last paragraph; I prefer the concept expressed by the Supreme Court of "viability" (a fetus becomes a legally separate person when he or she could reasonably survive a premature birth)."

Yeah me too. I think the women should have the choice during the 1st trimester.

After that, I would rather it be too late unless there's some imminent threat to the mother's life. If it comes down to one or the other living, the mother should win out.

7/5/2010 10:20:08 PM

Quote :

"it is a HUMAN, as opposed to a pig or a whale or a salamander."

saying it is human and it is a human are worlds apart. my finger is human but is not a human. for the purposes of this discussion that distinction is wildly important.

7/5/2010 10:26:05 PM

@0EPII1

Are you against birth control?

Are you against Plan B?

Are you against embryonic stem cell research?

Are you pro capital punishment?

7/5/2010 10:30:41 PM

Quote :

"Are you against birth control?"

If yes, do you masturbate?

7/5/2010 10:32:43 PM

Quote :

"pro life = anti-murder pro choice = pro-murder that's where i stand why? because abortion = murder, plain and simple a fetus is a human. i don't give a shit about the legal definition of human and the ensuing skirting-the-issue discussions. a baby inside the mother is a HUMAN BEING/HOMO SAPIENS."

To add to this, I believe that a woman has rights to her own body, but so does an unborn child. When the woman's life is not at stake (and I've never found a doctor who will admit to a situation where this has come up), I see no viable reason for abortion. All too often it is used as birth control for those who refuse to learn responsibility for their actions.

7/5/2010 10:32:56 PM

im pro-abortion

7/5/2010 10:34:09 PM

So is a miscarriage considered involuntary manslaughter in your book?

7/5/2010 10:34:55 PM

No, why would it be? People dying of natural causes is never a crime...

[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM. Reason : V--That's just too stupid to respond to.]

7/5/2010 10:35:47 PM

But a fetus has a right to life!

7/5/2010 10:36:12 PM

Quote :

"All too often it is used as birth control for those who refuse to learn responsibility for their actions."

I personally donot understand the problem with that. I do believe it is unfortunate that some people are so irresponsible as far as sex is concerned that they would allow it to go that far, but I would much rather there be an abortion than the birth of a child without a proper support system in place.

7/5/2010 10:39:35 PM

I was a bit sketchy on the data...they're actually rosier than I remember, and in reality the great majority of abortions occur during the embryonic stage: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

data from 2006

Quote :

"1. That I don't care about women. 2. You assume that the well-being of women surpasses the well-being of a fetus. Please defend this. 3. You assume that all cases of abortion have to do with the well being of a woman."

1. You do realize what choice means, right?
2. The fetus, before the point of viability (encompassing about 99% of abortions...21 weeks is before the currently-accepted limit of viability of 24 weeks, and according to Guttmacher, 98.5%of abortions occur before 21 weeks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_of_viability#Limit_of_viability), cannot live independently of the mother.
3. They do: Pregnancy, childbirth, and child-rearing are no laughing matter, and they limit what a woman is able to do; it's damaging to the ultimate well-being of a woman to bear a child before she is ready to care for one, with at best persistent questions about how far she could have advanced in life. That's just the general case; there are also cases of rape, incest, and danger to maternal life or health that make keeping the baby an even worse idea and also preclude adoption as a feasible option.

I think that it's ultimately about our values; I like many liberals believe that "adults create families": that people should advance in their lives to a point at which there will not be difficulty making ends meet and be fully mature before getting married and having children.
The old-fashioned system of family was "families create adults": that people should get married and have children as soon as possible, and the challenges of raising the kids will make the parents finish growing up in a hurry.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126780035
http://www.amazon.com/Red-Families-v-Blue-Polarization/dp/0195372174

[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 10:41 PM. Reason : burn baby burn

7/5/2010 10:39:51 PM

If one is pro-choice, they approach the fetus/baby from a standpoint of aesthetics.

7/5/2010 10:40:25 PM

it seems like many people who are pro-life are also for the death penalty. how is that reconciled?

7/5/2010 10:44:05 PM

Quote :

"Are you against birth control? Are you against Plan B? Are you against embryonic stem cell research? Are you pro capital punishment?"

no

no if it prevents fertilization, yes if it prevents implantation of embryo

i don't like the idea that human embryos are used for such research... adult stem cells are a better alternative in my view, and recently they created pluripotent stem cells from adult stem cells, so the potential is there for stem cell therapy using adult stem cells to bring forth as many benefits as stem cell therapy from embryonic stem cells is promising to bring (but hasn't brought any yet)

yes. irrelevant. no fetus is a murderer or a rapist.

7/5/2010 10:45:06 PM

Quote :

"If one is pro-choice, they approach the fetus/baby from a standpoint of aesthetics."

I don't know about you but I don't think a premature baby (or even a full-term newborn fresh from the vagina) looks cute

they have to fill out a bit and recover from the arduous process of being born, and then they become those cuties we all love to take pictures of

so it's not about aesthetics; "viability" doesn't mean "looks like a very tiny baby" because that actually happens way before the point at which the fetus could survive (with medical assistance) outside the womb

[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 10:45 PM. Reason : we're not so vain

7/5/2010 10:45:17 PM

There's nothing to reconcile.

That's like me saying how can you support imprisoning criminals but oppose kidnapping.

I mean, you tell me.. how the fuck do you reconcile?

Quote :

"so it's not about aesthetics; "viability" doesn't mean "looks like a very tiny baby" because that actually happens way before the point at which the fetus could survive (with medical assistance) outside the womb"

You completely misunderstood what I meant by aesthetics. I was referring to the aesthetics of the medical procedure performed on the fetus/baby. To reword, people who are pro-choice approach what happens to the fetus/baby from a standpoint of aesthetics.

[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 10:47 PM. Reason : ]

7/5/2010 10:45:35 PM

Quote :

"im pro-abortion"

I have zero problem with abortion, thankfully I've never been in a situation where it was needed, but I wouldn't think twice. A few hundred cells scraped out of a vagina is not a human.

7/5/2010 10:46:31 PM

Quote :

"yes. irrelevant. no fetus is a murderer or a rapist."

even though some people executed have been found afterwards to be innocent of their crimes?

7/5/2010 10:47:50 PM

that's true... I totally remember this one fetus who was found guilty of murder in the first degree.

7/5/2010 10:48:48 PM

here's a way to reconcile it:

fetuses don't commit heinous crimes worthy of execution

hell we don't even lock kindergarteners up, we go after their parents

the point is that some argue that killing should only be perfomed as punishment for a crime

7/5/2010 10:49:04 PM

Quote :

"You completely misunderstood what I meant by aesthetics. I was referring to the aesthetics of the medical procedure performed on the fetus/baby. To reword, people who are pro-choice approach what happens to the fetus/baby from a standpoint of aesthetics."

I thought that was more common among pro-lifers, like the people who stand on streetcorners with huge signs showing blown-up photographs of the aftermath of D&E, which is aesthetically unpleasant.

[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 10:52 PM. Reason : g-damn, I thought someone would have responded after me by now

7/5/2010 10:52:05 PM

Quote :

"it seems like many people who are pro-life are also for the death penalty. how is that reconciled?"

i fucking hate this argument. what's there to reconcile?

guilty people are killed, not innocent ones. was that too blunt for you, or is it clear now?

as for people being found innocent after, well, the death penalty should only be applied where there is irrefutable physical PROOF, not just evidence, and there is no doubt the person did what s/he is accused of doing. and if the accused confesses, then that's just so much better.

Quote :

"A few hundred cells scraped out of a vagina is not a human."

except that in some cases it is a few million, even few tens of billions.

7/5/2010 10:54:07 PM

but isn't killing people murder? isn't that what you're against?

7/5/2010 10:57:00 PM

Quote :

"I thought that was more common among pro-lifers, like the people who stand on streetcorners with huge signs showing blown-up photographs of the aftermath of D&E, which is aesthetically unpleasant."

I'm talking about philosophical approaches to the issue, I'm not talking about propaganda or tactical strategies.

7/5/2010 10:57:20 PM

Quote :

"guilty people are killed, not innocent ones. was that too blunt for you, or is it clear now? as for people being found innocent after, well, the death penalty should only be applied where there is irrefutable physical PROOF, not just evidence, and there is no doubt the person did what s/he is accused of doing. and if the accused confesses, then that's just so much better."

You can never be 100% certain of anything. DNA evidence can be faked. Police can lie.

Are you still willing to murder someone to satisfy your bloodlust for revenge?

7/5/2010 10:58:47 PM

Quote :

"but isn't killing people murder? isn't that what you're against?"

holy shit, you still don't get it?

just like i am against the murder of random people walking on the streets or sitting in their houses, i am against the murder of babies/fetuses.

i am against the murder of INNOCENT people. aren't you?

7/5/2010 11:00:06 PM

pot = stirred

7/5/2010 11:00:59 PM

Quote :

"i am against the murder of INNOCENT people. aren't you?"

Sure, which is why I was so upset about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

Quote :

"Cameron Todd Willingham (January 9, 1969, Carter County, Oklahoma – February 17, 2004, Huntsville Unit, Huntsville, Texas) was convicted of murder and executed for the deaths of his three young children via arson at the family home in Corsicana, Texas. Willingham's case gained renewed attention in 2009 when an investigative report in The New Yorker, drawing upon arson investigation experts and advances in fire science, purported to demonstrate that, contrary to the claims of the prosecution, there was no evidence that the house fire was intentionally set, and that the State of Texas executed an innocent man."

7/5/2010 11:03:10 PM

look, i am talking about cases where there definitely is proof and no doubt

dahmer
mcveigh

etc

not the arson guy from 2004 (poor dude, if innocent)
not oj

etc


[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 11:08 PM. Reason : there is no definite PROOF one way or another... and b/c of that, he shouldn't have been executed]

7/5/2010 11:05:40 PM

He was innocent, and it happened in 2004.

Besides, we're talking about two different things here anyway: Fetuses and people.

Fetuses aren't people.

7/5/2010 11:06:29 PM

ITT God implies that if someone dies then someone else is guilty of murder

7/5/2010 11:07:00 PM

They are.

7/5/2010 11:07:20 PM

Quote :

"not oj"

Hahaha. Not to derail the thread further but OJ did it.

7/5/2010 11:08:33 PM

I wish my kid was as innocent as OEP claims he is, little man just shit through his diaper onto me for the third time today!

7/5/2010 11:10:08 PM