Quote :

"Multiculturalism in Germany has "absolutely failed," German Chancellor Angela Merkel told her party's youth wing at a conference Saturday. "The approach of saying, 'Well, let's just go for a multicultural society, let's coexist and enjoy each other,' this very approach has failed, absolutely failed," she said in a speech."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/10/17/germany.merkel.multiculturalism/index.html?hpt=T2

Usually avoid SB like the plague but I thought it would be nice that we could all maybe agree that the US ain't so fucked up in every way after all. Yeah there's racism in america but we all seem to make it through it all with the most diverse demographics on the planet.

P.S. Dirty little secret, Europe is super racist.

P.P.S. We're over due for Germany invading something and they're getting antsy .

10/17/2010 12:38:21 PM

Quote :

"Usually avoid SB like the plague but I thought it would be nice that we could all maybe agree that the US ain't so fucked up in every way after all. Yeah there's racism in america but we all seem to make it through it all with the most diverse demographics on the planet. P.S. Dirty little secret, Europe is super racist."

Who would have denied this before? Just curious.

10/17/2010 1:37:49 PM

next up: Nazism under a new name

10/17/2010 2:29:15 PM

Not to comment on the Europeans being racist, because I don't agree with that, but I went to Munich recently, it's all honkies. I think I saw a total of 1 black guy, 2 jews, and 1 asian the entire week I was there. On the other hand I didn't see a single bum.

10/17/2010 2:30:15 PM

most of the racism manifests itself as xenophobia, like a ban on headscarves in French schools and a ban on minarets in Switzerland and immigration laws all around that make the Teabaggers sound like Emma Lazarus

10/17/2010 2:45:40 PM

America should actually accept and embrace multiculturalism, instead of the "lip service" it currently gets.

We act like we're all about it, but the 2-party corporatist system only "knows" statism and cultural homogeneity.

The right wants everyone to spiritually assimilate,
the left wants everyone to economically assimilate,
and the middle wants everyone to politically assimilate,
but only [liberal] libertarians accept people for who they, their wallets, and their politics are.

America is not a melting pot -- it is a mosaic.
A beautiful, complicated, vociferous, and wonderfully inefficient mosaic.

The left wants everyone to be on the left,
the right wants everyone to be on the right,
the middle wants everyone to be a nonsensical mix of left and right,
but only [liberal] libertarians want a fair system where everyone can simply be who they are, and best get along.


(Fuck Europe. Until the EU dissolves, I want nothing to do with that old mold.)

10/17/2010 3:25:27 PM

The left wants everyone to be on the left,
the right wants everyone to be on the right,
the middle wants everyone to be a nonsensical mix of left and right,
but only [liberal] libertarians want a fair system where everyone can simply be who they are, and best get along.
the [liberal] libertarians want everyone to be [liberal] libertarians.

[Edited on October 17, 2010 at 4:54 PM. Reason : ]

10/17/2010 4:49:06 PM

If you want to create your own little socialist community where everyone shits in buckets, go for it. Don't go to Washington and tell everyone how to live their lives, though, and threaten to ruin their lives if they don't.

10/17/2010 5:12:31 PM

If you want to create your own little libertarian community where everyone shits in buckets, go for it. Don't go to Washington and tell everyone how to live their lives, though, and threaten to ruin their lives if they don't.

10/17/2010 5:27:15 PM

The problem is that I can't make a "libertarian community." I would still be governed by federal law. Under any kind of constitutional republic that I would envision, the federal government would have no say in how specific state governments were run, so long as they did not violate any amendments.

10/17/2010 6:50:46 PM

Whether or not you agree that libertarianism is it, you should agree that something exists that is most fair to all.
It isn't rigid, monolithic, or homogeneous.
I don't know what it is, but I think it's most in line with [liberal] libertarianism.

Do you understand?

(like, 4, 37, 2938 are all "partisan" numbers, but 0 is the "non"-partisan catch-all...)

10/17/2010 8:21:45 PM

Quote :

"The problem is that I can't make a "libertarian community.""

You're starting to see why what you said to me is stupid, aren't you?

Quote :

"Whether or not you agree that libertarianism is it, you should agree that something exists that is most fair to all. It isn't rigid, monolithic, or homogeneous."

I agree with the first statement, but not the second. It's like saying, you have to agree that there is a best system, it's mine!"

10/17/2010 9:01:58 PM

Kris, what is your politics? You seem like some sort of statist.

10/17/2010 9:21:46 PM

he's a self-described dirty Communist

Quote :

"Don't go to Washington and tell everyone how to live their lives, though"

If there is one thing that libertarianism of any flavor is not in the business of, it's going to Washington and telling everyone how to run their lives. That's, like, the exact definition of the whole premise of libertarianism.

10/17/2010 10:00:39 PM

Quote :

"Kris, what is your politics? You seem like some sort of statist."

Ideally I'd like to see a worldwise communist system implemented by controlled conditioning of humanity. Realistically, I guess Democrat.

Quote :

"If there is one thing that libertarianism of any flavor is not in the business of, it's going to Washington and telling everyone how to run their lives."

I like having the government involved in my life, providing me with things and helping to manage the economy, and you guys want to storm into washington and take that all away from me and force me to live in a Somalia-esque lawless hellhole.

10/17/2010 10:50:30 PM

BETTER GETA GUN!

10/17/2010 11:04:52 PM

^^ only a few on the fringe are that extreme

i'm certainly not

most want some stuff eliminated, and a lot of other stuff just pushed down to state and local levels where it belongs


in any case, libertarianism is the exact opposite of telling people how to run their lives

10/17/2010 11:30:25 PM

what if I want someone to run my life for me?

[Edited on October 17, 2010 at 11:43 PM. Reason : !]

10/17/2010 11:43:03 PM

Quote :

"most want some stuff eliminated, and a lot of other stuff just pushed down to state and local levels where it belongs in any case, libertarianism is the exact opposite of telling people how to run their lives"

Mot telling is the same effect. If we get rid of the oppressive murder laws I'll no longer be able to live somewhere were murder is illegal, but hey, at least we aren't telling someone how to run their lives and whether they can or can't kill someone.

10/18/2010 12:03:44 AM

damn

[Edited on October 18, 2010 at 12:30 AM. Reason : it]

10/18/2010 12:28:14 AM

Quote :

"P.S. Dirty little secret, Europe the rest of the world is super racist."

Really, for the bum wrap we get, the Anglo-American sphere is amongst the most tolerant out there when it comes to race.

Quote :

"you guys want to storm into washington and take that all away from me and force me to live in a Somalia-esque lawless hellhole."

Libertarianism isn't lawlessness and to equate it as such is asinine.

If anything, you have less to fear from libertarians who want to minimize the intrusion of government than you do from those who want to disregard the rule of law (and that foundation upon which American law is built, the Constitution) in order to implement their personal form of social justice. It is that practice which leads down the road of force.

[Edited on October 18, 2010 at 12:31 AM. Reason : .]

10/18/2010 12:30:32 AM

Quote :

"If anything, you have less to fear from libertarians who want to minimize the intrusion of government than you do from those who want to disregard the rule of law (and that foundation upon which American law is built, the Constitution) in order to implement their personal form of social justice. It is that practice which leads down the road of force."

So then do you believe the Supreme Court is either unwilling or unable to do their job?

10/18/2010 12:38:50 AM

I think both sides are wildly exaggerating the policies and effects of the left and right for maximum impact

10/18/2010 5:15:54 AM

Quote :

"I like having the government involved in my life, providing me with things and helping to manage the economy, and you guys want to storm into washington and take that all away from me and force me to live in a Somalia-esque lawless hellhole."

There is a difference. Your gang of communist thugs plans to hunt down and shoot anyone that doesn't follow your rules (which communist party will win the civil war?). Libertarian thugs only plan to shoot at other gangs of thugs. As such, given a far smaller target base, there should be much less shooting from the libertarian gangs.

10/18/2010 5:18:33 AM

There is only one way to settle this!

10/18/2010 5:51:24 AM

I'm looking at some of the context here and I think this may be being blown at least slightly out of proportion.

Another quote from the article:

Quote :

""We've all understood now that immigrants are a part of our country, (but) they have to speak our language, they have receive an education here,""

If this is the sort of thing she was talking about then it's not so bad. There are good and cogent reasons why you want everybody on the same page linguistically. I'm not in favor of forcing people to learn English before they come here, for example, or getting rid of multilingual government forms, but I'm damn sure in favor of making a reasonable effort to teach it to people when they get here.

"Receive an education here" is a little ambiguous, but I doubt she's talking about turning Muslim kids into good ubermenschen.

Of course, even if Angela Merkel isn't an awful racist plenty of Europeans are. I just have to hope that a German leader of all people would have more sense than to go into far-right territory.

10/18/2010 11:43:01 AM

yea. I've never understood all the hate about getting everyone speaking english. From an economic standpoint having everyone speaking the same language saves everyone time and money. Not to mention the cultural integration benefits. If taxes have to bes spent to get it done thats fine. it'll pay off in the long term.

10/18/2010 11:48:43 AM

That's odd, I thought that since there was a market for Spanish speaking customers, you'd be happy with businesses deciding to cater to it.

Next thing you know, euphemisms that black people use that white people don't get shouldn't be used in public. I mean, it would save everyone a lot of money if we all talked exactly the same right?

10/18/2010 12:05:59 PM

^That's a pretty ridiculous leap right there.

Banning languages or expressions is much, MUCH different from asking a country's residents to learn it's national language.

10/18/2010 3:12:03 PM

Pop quiz: In what piece of legislation or code is the United States of America's official or national language defined?

According to Shaggy, the purpose of having everyone speaking the same language was to make commercial transactions easier. I'm not seeing how this is any different from suggesting that all manners of commercial communication need to be equally understandable for everyone who is a U.S. Citizen. I honestly don't see the point of either.

Businesses will post their signs/literature/etc in whatever languages are most profitable for them to do so. Citizens will learn enough of whatever languages are necessary for them to function and existing laws that punish things like not being able to read traffic signs will encourage that.

[Edited on October 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM. Reason : .]

10/18/2010 3:49:31 PM

The topic of discussion was Germany, where the national language is, you know, German.

I'm not seeing "commercial transactions" anywhere in Shaggy's post. Looks like you were putting words in his mouth. I don't know of anyone who wants to restrict the right of private companies to advertise in whichever language they choose. The question at hand is whether legal immigrants in Germany should be permitted to collect generous government aid while not making any attempt to learn the language and accepted mores of Germany. This is something that has frustrated many Germans that I've spoken with.

10/18/2010 4:19:43 PM

Yeah, Shaggy was talking about Germany alright.

Quote :

"yea. I've never understood all the hate about getting everyone speaking english."

And nothing in his post had anything to do with businesses.

Quote :

"From an economic standpoint having everyone speaking the same language saves everyone time and money."

10/18/2010 4:28:52 PM

I was really only concerned with the language of government, and in particular for safety reasons. Police departments can't have a translator for every language on Earth (or often, in this country, every language spoking in their jurisdiction). But I have not ever, nor do I now, recommend a "national language." English education should be encouraged, that's all.

10/18/2010 4:38:10 PM

When english speaking companies want to handle non-english speaking clients, they need to add additional overhead for either hiring native speakers or using 3rd party translators. This is usually done in the form of added costs either for the non-english speakers or for everyone.

Im not saying in anyway that companies that cater specifically to non-english speakers dont exist or are bad, im just saying if theres 1 national language that everyone speaks it saves on total overhead and expands services to those who used to only speak 1 language.

I dont know if it should be a mandate for citizenship or not, but I dont see the problem if English education is offered for free by the fed to anyone interested. The idea is to provide more employment opportunities to non-english speakers compared to now, where they are viewed as added overhead.

10/18/2010 5:11:35 PM

Nothing wrong for offering voluntary English education I suppose. Without some sort of mandate on its use in commerce and public places I'm not sure how it would change how things currently work in this country. And hence why it would be necessary.

Grumpy makes a point when la policia are yelling at you it would be helpful for you to know what they're saying. My point is that I'm pretty sure they know enough from living in this country to make the relationship with the police/government workable already. Are Spanish-speaking citizens or legal aliens such a strain on our system?

10/18/2010 6:24:13 PM

research from wiki shows that Merkel is in the Christian Democratic Union, a center right party

so... she's right wing

the statement she made was a bit more hard right, but... at least it all makes a bit of sense now

if you use the word "multiculturalism" around right wingers in America, you'll get a bunch of squinty eyes as well

10/18/2010 7:44:13 PM

I live in a neighborhood where almost everyone speaks Spanish or some Chinese dialect. Almost everything is in a language other than English with some exceptions.

most people have a working knowledge of English which is nice because my Spanish is horrible and I know absolutely nothing about Asian languages.

I'm not really sure where all of these people who don't speak English are and where they live. I know this is anecdote evidence but I cant see, as pointed out above, how people with a poor grasp of English really causing huge costs or problems.

10/18/2010 7:50:58 PM

Quote :

"Pop quiz: In what piece of legislation or code is the United States of America's official or national language defined?"

Better pop quiz: What language is all of our legislations and codes written?

10/18/2010 11:15:59 PM

also consider that to become naturalized you do have to speak and understand English

it's not our official language but it's goddam close

10/18/2010 11:17:03 PM

^^ Legalese

10/19/2010 1:12:54 AM

I'm fine with it being the de facto language. Also, our own legislators can't even read the fucking laws.

The question is whether we should expect American citizens to speak English and if so somehow enforce this. Unequivocally to me, the answer is no. Our current system of understanding each other as citizens is sufficient. I don't see evidence of massive economic damage caused by non-English speaking citizens/legal aliens.

10/19/2010 8:44:15 AM

Here is a pretty good article (read: not a shitty CNN piece) on the implications of what Multiculturalism really is in Europe and the context in which Merkel said it:

Quote :

" While respecting diversity, the policy seemed to amount to buying migrant loyalty. The deeper explanation was that the Germans did not want, and did not know how, to assimilate culturally, linguistically, religiously and morally diverse people. Multiculturalism did not so much represent respect for diversity as much as a way to escape the question of what it meant to be German and what pathways foreigners would follow to become Germans. This goes back to the European notion of the nation, which is substantially different from the American notion. For most of its history, the United States thought of itself as a nation of immigrants, but with a core culture that immigrants would have to accept in a well-known multicultural process. Anyone could become an American, so long as they accepted the language and dominant culture of the nation. This left a lot of room for uniqueness, but some values had to be shared. Citizenship became a legal concept. It required a process, an oath and shared values. Nationality could be acquired; it had a price. To be French, Polish or Greek meant not only that you learned their respective language or adopted their values — it meant that you were French, Polish or Greek because your parents were, as were their parents. It meant a shared history of suffering and triumph. One couldn’t acquire that. For the Europeans, multiculturalism was not the liberal and humane respect for other cultures that it pretended to be. It was a way to deal with the reality that a large pool of migrants had been invited as workers into the country. The offer of multiculturalism was a grand bargain meant to lock in migrant loyalty in exchange for allowing them to keep their culture — and to protect European culture from foreign influences by sequestering the immigrants. The Germans tried to have their workers and a German identity simultaneously. It didn’t work."

[Edited on October 19, 2010 at 3:15 PM. Reason : damnit, I keep forgetting links: http://dlvr.it/7DCVM]

10/19/2010 3:14:51 PM

Germany is fucked.

10/20/2010 10:41:55 AM

USA! USA! USA!

Seriously though, we dominate the Western world in the immigration/multiculturalism business. Despite our current economic problems, I think we've got more jobs for immigrants. And we've kept our welfare state in check compared to Europe. Those two factors create a whole different climate for immigrants in the states.

Ultimately though, I think a lot of it gets back to our history as a nation of immigrants. We've got some ugly stuff in our past and our present, of course. But still immigrants come here, and over time or a generation or two, they assimilate to our culture, and our culture simultaneously accommodates immigrants. Sure, people still identify as Korean or Salvadoran or whatever, but they're Americans, too.

We kinda kick ass.

10/20/2010 12:48:33 PM

More reading on "Finding your Inner Bigot"

Quote :

"Our conception of prejudice is fearfully wrong. Psychologists Andrew Scott Baron and Mahzarin Banaji once conducted a study evaluating the conscious and unconscious attitudes of 6-year-olds, 10-year-olds, and adults. The 10-year-olds reported less prejudice than the small kids, and the adults reported no prejudices at all. But that was at a conscious level. At an unconscious level, the three groups had identical attitudes. Other research has shown that at an unconscious level, huge majorities of Americans (including sizable numbers of African-Americans) are biased against blacks. Huge numbers of women, as well as men, value men's professional contributions more than they value women's professional work. Large majorities of gays, Arabs, and people with disabilities have unconscious biases against people from those groups."

http://www.slate.com/id/2271185/

10/20/2010 12:52:10 PM

^I don't think Europe's got an unconscious bigotry problem. When you live in a huge welfare state, and the majority of that welfare is consumed by non-natives...I'd think people would be out and about when it comes to getting their bigot on.

10/20/2010 1:09:46 PM

I meant that to be more broad in scope. Like you said, in the US our mega-culture discourages divisions on anything other than merit, Europe is completely different, but neither society benefits from pretending that the monkey brain does not like those who are dissimilar to us.


I freely admit that I have ingrained prejudices and, by admiting that, am able to make a consious effort to treat everyone I meet as an individual. I could ignore that fact, but that would do nothing to address the root of the problem.

[Edited on October 20, 2010 at 1:38 PM. Reason : .]

10/20/2010 1:38:12 PM

Europeans are not necessarily more racist than Americans. They're just a lot less ashamed of it.

10/20/2010 4:05:10 PM

^ I completely disagree with this.

10/20/2010 7:28:21 PM

^^ Disagree with this. Maybe deep down in the heart, Europeans are just as racist as Americans. However, in the United States, we are socially conditioned to not be racist, and our society makes an active effort to combat many of the more blatant racism you see even in Western Europe.

My sister told me how when she lived in northern Italy, her coworkers would always comment on how "Oh, we're not racist at all. There is no racism in Italy, not like in the United States." Yet she was harassed all the time by locals who would call her racist epitaths on her commute to work everyday. In meetings, other Italian suppliers would give her crap openly saying to her and her boss, "She's ONE OF THEM (Chinese), and she's going to steal all our secrets." Her boss would counter that a) she's from the US, and b) she's ethnic Korean, but they would insist that "No, look at her! She's one of them!" and then proceed to get in a shouting match with her coworkers. Then, she'd go tour an Italian factory and find a whole slew of illegal North African immigrants working in sweatshop conditions, and at the same time, all businesses will have an Italian working at the front because apparently no right-minded Italian would ever shop at the store if it were an alien there. This is a whole different level of harassment that she ever got in the US.

I should add that this was doing business with Italian firms that do a tremendous amount of business overseas, so it's not like they've never interacted with non-Italians before.

[Edited on October 21, 2010 at 5:00 PM. Reason : .]

10/21/2010 4:59:24 PM