I am trying not to make this long, or offensive, but one of my coworkers was talking about how Jews are a racial minority like black americans. This gave birth to a long discussion about how Jews are white and heavily mixed with European blood and that I really didn't even know that they identified themselves as a race.

Can anyone explain this to me?

It seems like a situation where the original tribes/race of Jews has been heavily mixed out, but that we still have to consider it a separate race due to PC reasons.

I am totally confused...

11/4/2010 8:28:38 PM

Jews are people who practice the religion Judaism. Jew is NOT a race, Judaism is a religion. End of thread. There are white Jews, Black Jews, Asian Jews, Persian Jews, etc. We all came from some fucking ancient tribe years ago, that doesnt mean a damn thing anymore. The only people who think Jews are a race are stupid fucking racist nazi fucks, and the Jews who think it is a race are fucking morons. The so called "Jewish Look" of dark hair and a large nose is not racial features but merely regional features of many people from eastern Europe and the Balkans

Im a Jew for the record.

[Edited on November 4, 2010 at 8:38 PM. Reason : .]

11/4/2010 8:34:25 PM

yeah, but most people especially Jews would disagree completely. I said one thing about Jews being white and that its not a race and the whole office fell down on me.

11/4/2010 8:37:29 PM

Jew is both a race and religion.

When Jews first came to American (just like the Irish and Chinese), there was rampant discrimination against them. They are a minority group.

They don’t get it nearly as bad as the blacks do, but there are still people who are prejudiced against someone because they are Jewish.

Most Jews to a great job integrating into American culture (just like most non-whites in general), but a few Jews who insist on clinging desperately to their past culture too closely kind of ruins it for the rest of the Jews.

11/4/2010 8:39:22 PM

Yeah, it really doesn't make that much sense. In common speech, calling someone Jewish is a reference to their ancestry more than anything else. I have friends that I would say are Jewish but not at all religious.

Quote :

"I said one thing about Jews being white and that its not a race and the whole office fell down on me."

I mean, they are white a lot of the time. Race is a pretty ambiguous term, and it's becoming an increasingly useless category as people of various backgrounds interbreed. I don't know, it's just stupid. We're all people, we're all related, some of us look different, who gives a damn. I hope we can move beyond this in our lifetimes.

[Edited on November 4, 2010 at 8:47 PM. Reason : ]

11/4/2010 8:40:02 PM

Any Jew who thinks this is a fucking moron and deserves the hatred that comes from this retarded belief. It is NOT a race.

11/4/2010 8:40:10 PM

^ it is a race, and you’re an idiot for not knowing this, and belligerently insisting otherwise.

11/4/2010 8:40:49 PM

Im not going to argue about this, but it is not a race or ethnicity. Just because they were referred to as the Jewish People does not make it a race. The so called Jewish racial features are nothing more than Eastern European and Balkan features. The very same region the majority of Jews emigrated from when they came here in the late 1800s.

Quote :

"When Jews first came to American (just like the Irish and Chinese), there was rampant discrimination against them. They are a minority group."

So by that logic, Irish and Chinese is also a race. A minority group =/= a race



[Edited on November 4, 2010 at 8:45 PM. Reason : .]

11/4/2010 8:43:30 PM

You have no grasp of history or biology.

It is both a race and religion, and the two groups intersect, but are not the same.

It’s a “homonym” of sorts.

It’s a scientific fact that it is a race. Your petty opinions otherwise don’t change this, even though you are entitled to being wrong.



[Edited on November 4, 2010 at 8:46 PM. Reason : ]

11/4/2010 8:44:43 PM

well I didn't know this, and I certantly felt like an idiot. And I am sure that I am not an Idiot, but damn wtf.

11/4/2010 8:45:32 PM

I have a very firm grasp of both subjects. The notion of Jews being a race was used as a means of persecution, but it did not help that Jews in the old countries tended to keep to themselves.

Scientifically proven my ass. Every fucking person on earth came from some ancient tribe if you go back far enough, that doesnt mean shit.

[Edited on November 4, 2010 at 8:47 PM. Reason : .]

11/4/2010 8:46:19 PM

^^ actually, i don’t hold anything against you. I see what you were trying to argue, and I actually didn’t know Jews considered themselves different that white people until coming to TWW where I saw Salisburyboy saying how evil they were.

But i educated myself, and realized that i was just ignorant.

It’s no big deal… (some) Jews see themselves to be distinctively different than other white Americans, and there’s nothing wrong with this. So what? What does this really mean? Nothing, is what.

[Edited on November 4, 2010 at 8:47 PM. Reason : ]

11/4/2010 8:47:33 PM

The fact that some stupid Jews buy into this race nonsense is what has lead to the persecution over the years.

11/4/2010 8:49:10 PM

^ racist assholes persecuting jews is what leads to persecution, actually.

Jews choosing to retain a certain cultural identity is fine. It’s people like you who demand everyone to think and act as you do that creates persecution.

11/4/2010 8:51:25 PM

woah bro, that's a hard J.

11/4/2010 8:54:23 PM

Im not demanding anyone think like me, I was answering his question from my own personal beliefs. If Jews want to continue to buy into the bullshit separatist notion of calling themselves a race, than thats their choice. But, it furthers the hatred and legitimizes the stupid notion of white supremacists, anti-Jewish Muslims, and anyone else who has a vitriolic hatred of Jews. I personally choose to distance myself as far as possible from that belief, as a non-practicing Jew.

11/4/2010 8:56:44 PM

Definition of race :
A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
A genealogical line; a lineage.
Humans considered as a group.
Biology.
An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.

A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine.


From answers.com

So Jews fall under some of those definitions.

[Edited on November 4, 2010 at 9:27 PM. Reason : So do German Arabic Irish...]

11/4/2010 9:24:05 PM

Quote :

"I was answering his question from my own personal beliefs."

This isn't a matter of personal belief, it's a matter of fact, you are nothing other than wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

The types that are most common now are Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

You really made yourself look like an ass, I would apologize.

[Edited on November 4, 2010 at 9:34 PM. Reason : ]

11/4/2010 9:33:40 PM

To me it looks debatable. Just as debatable and touchy as gay men arguing that they were born that way. You are supposed to agree with them, but there is no real hard evidence pointing either way.

Some of you gave me a "what's the big deal?" response. I think that it is a big deal when you are trying put yourself in the same boat as black discrimination. It is almost an insult. Maybee technically you can describe it as a race, and try to have a cultural identity, but you still look and are white.

^ Sourcing wiki also does not look good.

[Edited on November 4, 2010 at 9:38 PM. Reason : a]

11/4/2010 9:36:24 PM

I never had to check a demographic category box of "Jew" when filling out any kind of form

11/4/2010 9:40:40 PM

Quote :

"To me it looks debatable."

It's not.

Quote :

"Sourcing wiki also does not look good."

Ok, pick one of the million cited articles.

Quote :

"I never had to check a demographic category box of "Jew" when filling out any kind of form"

WELL SHIT IF ITS ON A FORM IT MUST BE RIGHT!

11/4/2010 9:48:46 PM

The Jewish people form an ethnoreligious group, consisting of those who are Jewish by faith (whether raised or converted) and those who are Jewish by birth (to a Jewish woman); they don't constitute a race and in fact may be of any race, although the well-known subgroups Ashkenazim (European) and Sephardim (Middle Eastern) are Caucasian.

11/4/2010 9:51:24 PM

^sounds reasnable

11/4/2010 10:51:48 PM

They are a race as they have significant genetic similarities between each other and significant differences between between other races. That's what a race is, and that's why they are one. Please see the links for evidence.

11/4/2010 11:07:43 PM

ED-O-MIIIIIITES!!!!

11/4/2010 11:10:40 PM

rofl red baron couldn't look like more of an ignoramus

Watch him chimp out just like every other human and dig his heels in against incontrovertible evidence

11/4/2010 11:12:17 PM

Maybe I'm not learned on the subject, but hasn't like every evolutionary biologist abandoned the idea of "race?" Upon finding that there is more genetic variation within so-called races than between them and that there really is no plausible biological demarcation between "races?"

That being said, there are non-genetic demarcations to do with Jewish ethnicity which are not religious in nature. I would describe it as both a religion and a culture rather than a race, but that's me.

11/5/2010 12:59:29 AM

I would think they'd be happy that they blend in with caucasians so well now. They just look white to me. Maybe if they all wore some sort of badge on their shirt so everyone could spot them from a distance...

11/5/2010 1:29:39 AM

Quote :

"They are a race as they have significant genetic similarities between each other and significant differences between between other races. That's what a race is, and that's why they are one. Please see the links for evidence."

lol no. like disco_stu said, race doesn't really exist biologically. It does exists culturally. look at the article you posted yourself

Quote :

"During a scientific conference in 2003 in the United States, the Jewish American biologist Robert Pollack, Columbia University and several scientists have clearly rejected the fact that we can determine the biologically "Jewishness" of an individual because there is simply no DNA sequence that is present among Jews and absent among non-Jews.[6]"

11/5/2010 8:05:03 AM

I love how this website has both red baron 22 who doesn't believe in the Jewish race and seems to hate Jews and then there's IRSeriousCat who believes in a Jewish race -- but only if you're Sephardic and hates every other Jew.

Really making Team Judaism proud, boys!

11/5/2010 8:21:16 AM

Quote :

"^ Sourcing wiki also does not look good."

http://www.jewfaq.org also says 'not a race'.



In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect.

But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin.

But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to.

Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).

11/5/2010 8:34:10 AM

Oh man, how'd I miss this gem?

Quote :

"I think that it is a big deal when you are trying put yourself in the same boat as black discrimination. It is almost an insult. "

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote :

"Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/science/14gene.html?_r=2

Quote :

"The researchers, Doron Behar and Karl Skorecki of the Technion and Ramban Medical Center in Haifa, and colleagues elsewhere, report that just four women, who may have lived 2,000 to 3,000 years ago, are the ancestors of 40 percent of Ashkenazis alive today. The Technion team's analysis was based on mitochondrial DNA, a genetic element that is separate from the genes held in the cell's nucleus and that is inherited only through the female line. Because of mutations - the switch of one DNA unit for another - that build up on the mitochondrial DNA, people can be assigned to branches that are defined by which mutations they carry. In the case of the Ashkenazi population, the researchers found that many branches coalesced to single trees, and so were able to identify the four female ancestors. Looking at other populations, the Technion team found that some people in Egypt, Arabia and the Levant also carried the set of mutations that defines one of the four women. They argue that all four probably lived originally in the Middle East. A study by Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona showed five years ago that the men in many Jewish communities around the world bore Y chromosomes that were Middle Eastern in origin. This finding is widely accepted by geneticists, but there is less consensus about the women's origins."

[Edited on November 5, 2010 at 8:51 AM. Reason : .]

11/5/2010 8:41:53 AM

Only racists could give a shit about this distinction.

11/5/2010 8:54:47 AM

Or people who don't think that religion should be a protected class because it's ostensibly a choice.

11/5/2010 9:04:54 AM

Quote :

"Maybe I'm not learned on the subject, but hasn't like every evolutionary biologist abandoned the idea of "race?" Upon finding that there is more genetic variation within so-called races than between them and that there really is no plausible biological demarcation between "races?""

Indeed there is no genetic demarcation that allows you to unambiguously assign even all indigenous populations to one of a reasonably small number of races; the closest thing can be done with genetic cluster analysis but it doesn't quite support the stark five-race worldview of the early 20th century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_clustering

The claim that "race is a social construct" is not political correctness, it's literal correctness.

11/5/2010 9:07:02 AM

Quote :

"Oh man, how'd I miss this gem?"

I dont get it, are you disagreeing?

11/5/2010 10:51:59 AM

Quote :

"Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews "

this is how I've always thought of "race"

11/5/2010 11:52:48 AM

This isn't up for debate, read a book.

11/5/2010 12:02:44 PM

Quote :

"Only racists could give a shit about this distinction."

Thank you Lumex, thats the point I am trying to make. Stein, I do not hate Jews, I just get very angry at the Jews who buy into the race argument because it leads to the hatred and legitimizes the stupid notion of racists.

I personally dont like trying to break everyone down into groups. People are people, some people are good some are bad, but race, ethnicity, sexuality etc doesnt mean anything really.

[Edited on November 5, 2010 at 12:21 PM. Reason : .]

11/5/2010 12:18:32 PM

Descendants of the tribe of Israel would probably consider themselves a race but in general Judaism is considered a religion.

11/5/2010 1:29:04 PM

Lets just agree that it's an ethnicity.

11/5/2010 1:31:56 PM

Quote :

"I dont get it, are you disagreeing?"

Yes.

Quote :

"Stein, I do not hate Jews, I just get very angry at the Jews who buy into the race argument because it leads to the hatred and legitimizes the stupid notion of racists."

You're an idiot.

Let me ask you this, if you don't think there's a Jewish race and you describe yourself as non-practicing, how exactly are you Jewish? Now before you say "culturally", you're going to have to explain how and why you manage to be a part of a culture that is tied to a religion you don't follow.

11/5/2010 1:32:45 PM

WHOA WHOA WHOA THERE!

I'll go find the thread where 8 of you tore me a new asshole for associating the Judaism with Jewish and Israeli culture.

[Edited on November 5, 2010 at 2:20 PM. Reason : jews]

11/5/2010 2:19:53 PM

Quote :

"Yes."

Please explain then. How are modern day jews racially discriminated against?

11/5/2010 2:38:15 PM

my favorite things about jews are their hot dogs and how well they genocide browns.

11/5/2010 2:55:36 PM

Quote :

"Let me ask you this, if you don't think there's a Jewish race and you describe yourself as non-practicing, how exactly are you Jewish?"

Well lets see, both of my parents were Jewish and so I was raised Jewish. I had a bar mitzvah, and at one time in my life I was a practicing Jew before I lost my faith. And although I am more agnostic now, I still have a little bit of Jewish spirituality left in me. I dont see myself as a Christian, or any other religion, so for all intensive purposes I am an agnostic Jew. But I am not part of this made up Jewish race so many people seem to believe in.

11/5/2010 3:01:07 PM

Quote :

"Please explain then. How are modern day jews racially discriminated against?"

For the most part, we're not racially discriminated against anymore, that I won't argue.

But in the grand scheme of things to talk about "black discrimination" like it's the worst thing ever and say it's "almost an insult" for Jews to put themselves in the same boat is absolutely laughable. Lets be honest, we all know it's just a matter of time until Israel does something crazy again and everyone goes "FUCKING JEWS "

Quote :

"Well lets see, both of my parents were Jewish and so I was raised Jewish. I had a bar mitzvah, and at one time in my life I was a practicing Jew before I lost my faith. And although I am more agnostic now, I still have a little bit of Jewish spirituality left in me. I dont see myself as a Christian, or any other religion, so for all intensive purposes I am an agnostic Jew. But I am not part of this made up Jewish race so many people seem to believe in."

How can you be agnostic in a religion that requires belief in a God? The answer is: "you can't". It'd be like me saying I'm Christian, but just not really buying into the whole Jesus thing.

So basically by your own criteria, you're not actually Jewish, so I'd ask that you stop referring to yourself as such.

11/5/2010 3:21:43 PM

I dont think you have a right to tell me what I am and am not. And you very well can be an agnostic person who still believes in God, albeit skeptically

11/5/2010 3:38:13 PM

I don't know if unicorns exist in a parallel universe. Would you say I believe in unicorns?

11/5/2010 3:46:49 PM

Quote :

"And you very well can be an agnostic person who still believes in God, albeit skeptically "

You're going to want to look up the word agnostic in the dictionary. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

But if you can somehow reason that you're a member of a religion that requires a belief in God, despite being (at best) skeptical of the existence of God and being a self-described agnostic, I get the feeling that little things like "dictionaries" and "facts" aren't going to stand in your way.

[Edited on November 5, 2010 at 3:53 PM. Reason : .]

11/5/2010 3:53:38 PM