An honest question for any Catholics: has God changed his mind on the morality of condoms or is the Pope misunderstanding God's will for their use?

I'm honestly intrigued about the implications of radically shifting the morality of an entire religion overnight. As an aside, kudos for catching up to the rest of us.

11/24/2010 1:37:26 PM

I think the statement went that knowingly spreading disease is more of a sin than averting a possible pregnancy by preventing the spread of disease.

I don't think there was a radical shift in morality as you have shaped it.

But I'm not catholic - so I will defer to them

11/24/2010 2:06:12 PM

Forgive my ignorance, but has the pope ever actually spoken on "God's Will" in regards to condoms or merely the Church's position on the issue?

11/24/2010 2:07:23 PM

^
I was under the impression that the Pope is a vessel for the word of God, which makes it a little confusing that he would ever need to reverse a decision such as this one.

11/24/2010 2:29:51 PM

Quote :

"I think the statement went that knowingly spreading disease is more of a sin than averting a possible pregnancy by preventing the spread of disease."

But before that statement, it was not more of a sin. That's the shift. And you don't get more radical than a 180 degree turn.

11/24/2010 2:41:50 PM

I'm pretty sure condom use is very low on the scale of morality in the Catholic Church. I suspect the church probably spends 99% of its time on other issues, but that condoms was both controversial and highly visible, so non-Catholics spent 99% of the time they spent talking about Catholics talking about Condoms.

To put it another way, I suspect a Catholic would be treated equally harsh by the Catholic Church for engaging in adultery regardless of whether they used a condom or not.

11/24/2010 3:31:27 PM

When I was an altar boy my priest always used a condom.

11/24/2010 3:38:54 PM

^x4

Now you know better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Ex_cathedra

Arguably this is simply a way for the Church to get around the fact that Popes for all the intents to the contrary are mere humans, and are susceptible to error and politics as any of us (see also the Catholic Church and the Nazis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII_and_the_Holocaust), but it at least provides some distinction between the speeches of an organizational leader and the speakings of "the Word of God"

11/24/2010 3:56:05 PM

Quote :

"When I was an altar boy my priest always used a condom. "

I laughed, is that bad?

11/24/2010 4:09:54 PM

Quote :

"I'm pretty sure condom use is very low on the scale of morality in the Catholic Church. I suspect the church probably spends 99% of its time on other issues, but that condoms was both controversial and highly visible, so non-Catholics spent 99% of the time they spent talking about Catholics talking about Condoms. "

Their condom policy has caused a shitload of misery in the 3rd world

11/24/2010 4:34:33 PM

Yup. That's about the only reason I take issue with it. Teaching anti-safe sex philosophy in countries rife with HIV/AIDS is evil. Not just a bad idea, but morally evil. It's only slightly less evil to teach that contraception is bad when it can potentially lead to babies starving to death.

11/24/2010 6:29:11 PM

I heard a priest on NPR defending this. He was trying to say both, yes this is stance on condoms looks like a huge change, and no it is not in any way change on behalf of the church, the pope, or god.

Quote :

"I'm pretty sure condom use is very low on the scale of morality in the Catholic Church."

He also said there is not a sliding scale of evils and he got kind of upset with the npr interviewer who asked them if there was a scale and said he wished the media & npr would stop portraying it as a scale and as a change.

He then said it was like, if muggers decided to put foam on their pipes when they were beating people to steal from them, that would be like using a condom. It is still evil, but it shows a sign of a spark of a moral conscience that might eventually lead to them becoming good people. He said condoms are still as evil as they always have been, but using condoms to prevent disease spreading means there is hope you might turn into a good person some day.

11/24/2010 6:48:53 PM

I like how two people loving each other and enjoying their bodies in a way that's virtually consequenceless = evil, but misinforming and dooming an entire continent = god's work

The Catholic church is full of a bunch of dangerous phonies and apologists -- the enemies of any reasonable, thinking person

11/24/2010 6:52:57 PM

Anyone who actually pays attention to what the pope says probably deserves HIV for the good of humanity.

11/26/2010 11:32:01 PM

^yea because its not like religion has done any good for anyone ever.

"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

is all you need to know.

The stance of the church is that

A. you shouldn't have sex before marriage.
B. you have sex to have babies and continue your family.

If your in a monogamous relationship, there isn't much need for a condom, because guess what, your not likely to get a disease from your wife.

The problem here is interpretation the teachings out of scope.

Its not like the church says "Go forth and have free sex, but don't use a condom"
It says "Go forth and have sex only with one person who is your spouse"

You can argue semantics, but the fact is sex without marriage is a sin, so running a program recommended condom use when your having sex out of marriage isn't there first priority.

Lets give a fake example

Riding a bike is a sin.

Helmets protect bike riders.

The church isn't going to start handing out helmets to people all of the sudden because they don't see a need:
1. The average person isn't going to ride a bike because its a sin.
2. A helmet provides very little advantage to an average person going about their daily business.

Now if at a later date, some change means that wearing a helmet when not riding a bicycle is beneficial for the population at large.
1. Lets say it hails particularly often in your area, they might change their opinion, and start advocating helmet use.
2. They still won't advocate helmet use while riding a bicycle, because riding a bicycle is a sin.




[Edited on November 29, 2010 at 2:38 PM. Reason : Yay]

11/29/2010 2:23:45 PM

^Are you saying that married people should only have sex when they are trying to conceive?

11/29/2010 3:04:26 PM

The view of the church is that you have sex in order to produce children (god willing).

In addition, the change in stance is in the relation to the prevention of the disease (which I believe is the topic of discussion in this thread), not the prevention of pregnancy.

[Edited on November 29, 2010 at 3:22 PM. Reason : dd]

11/29/2010 3:22:25 PM

Quote :

"The view of the church is that you have sex in order to produce children (god willing)."

Unless you're a priest, in which case you have sex with children (god willing).

[Edited on November 29, 2010 at 3:50 PM. Reason : God willing if we're supposed to treat the response of the Vatican/Pope in proportion to god's will]

Quote :

"Lets give a fake example Riding a bike is a sin. Helmets protect bike riders."

You could have used this fake example instead:

Having sex is a sin.

Condoms protect participants in sexual intercourse.

[Edited on November 29, 2010 at 3:51 PM. Reason : .]

11/29/2010 3:49:36 PM

Quote :

"The view of the church is that you have sex in order to produce children (god willing)."

So physical expressions of love aren't worth anything? If you are a reasonable person and you only want 2 children, does that mean you aren't allowed to have sex after 2 have been born?

11/29/2010 3:57:48 PM

Quote :

"Lets give a fake example Riding a bike is a sin. Helmets protect bike riders. The church isn't going to start handing out helmets to people all of the sudden because they don't see a need: 1. The average person isn't going to ride a bike because its a sin. 2. A helmet provides very little advantage to an average person going about their daily business. Now if at a later date, some change means that wearing a helmet when not riding a bicycle is beneficial for the population at large. 1. Lets say it hails particularly often in your area, they might change their opinion, and start advocating helmet use. 2. They still won't advocate helmet use while riding a bicycle, because riding a bicycle is a sin."

What a piss poor example. I guess it would make sense if there was a hormonally driven, biological urge to ride bikes and something being a sin stopped the average person from doing something.

11/29/2010 7:08:58 PM

Quote :

"So physical expressions of love aren't worth anything? If you are a reasonable person and you only want 2 children, does that mean you aren't allowed to have sex after 2 have been born?"

I'd love to see where in the Bible it actually says something saying sex only for procreation. Even though I'm sure the Catholic church just conjured it out of thin air. Much in the way the conjured their sun symbolism and neopagan saint worship. At least they try to disguise it as Christianity.

"Would to God ye could bear with me a little in [my] folly: and indeed bear with me.

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him]."

2nd Corinthians 11:4



I bear no grievance towards anyone that is Catholic, but I believe the Catholic church is based in and operated by deception.

11/29/2010 7:20:51 PM

Quote :

"I'm honestly intrigued about the implications of radically shifting the morality of an entire religion overnight."

Are you implying that religion shapes and defines morality?

11/29/2010 10:43:15 PM

I told that nazi that I would not forgive his sins for touching little boys if he didn't help out with this overpopulation crap.

**I am Catholic
**you are only supposed to have sex to procreate-I believe it is in the bible somewhere- but it is not applicable to our society b/c we are not married at 13 and need another 13 children to work on the farm.

11/29/2010 11:09:05 PM

Quote :

"I bear no grievance towards anyone that is Catholic, but I believe the Catholic church is based in and operated by deception."

You're absolutely right. Keep thinking about it hard enough and you'll realize every church is like this.

11/30/2010 12:00:06 AM

Which is why I'm non denominational O.o
Nice try though.

Nor do I believe every institution is like this.

11/30/2010 12:52:17 AM

OH MY CHURCH IS DIFFERENT IT REALLY IS!

11/30/2010 1:32:19 AM

^

11/30/2010 1:46:13 AM

I go to lots of different chapels. Nor do I prescribe to one denominations teaching and dogma, since the way I feel is that Christianity should be based solely on scripture, which is not the way everyone feels.


Feel free to keep throwing around generalizations about things of which you don't understand, though.

11/30/2010 2:07:49 AM

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school for 12 years. It has always been my view, at least within my diocese and particular parish, that Catholics were one of the more progressive sects of Christianity. I've never been subject to or felt scrutiny in the least for anything and have never had any church doctrine pushed on me. Kindness and forgiveness were always preached first and foremost.

Over the years, I have ventured from being what I would call a practicing Catholic, but the underlying messages of charity and forgiveness have always stuck with me.

11/30/2010 7:24:31 AM

just popping in to say that faith is a disease

11/30/2010 8:35:27 AM

suffering is a disease.

11/30/2010 10:14:05 AM

^^^^ Remind me how the scripture reads anything at all without the reader projecting feelings onto it

Also LOL yeah you're at the one church that's different, buddy. Everybody is.

11/30/2010 10:24:25 AM

Why are you people attacking someone who is obviously on your side on this issue, just because he is religious? Give me a break. There are plenty of churches that aren't all fire and brimstone, and teach love and forgiveness.

11/30/2010 10:47:30 AM

Yeah but to imagine that's not still deception is ridiculous

Gotta call it like you see it

11/30/2010 11:17:08 AM

Who wants a hypocrite on his side?

11/30/2010 11:34:27 AM

^^
Why does it matter to you? If they aren't bothering anyone, let them do their thing.

^
Everyone is a hypocrite.

11/30/2010 11:41:34 AM

^It matters to us when religious policy causes irresponsible lifestyle choices such as banning the use of condoms. The result is that we all have to deal with an increased population and the spread of dangerous diseases, not just the faithful.

It's not as simple as "letting them do their thing".

[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 12:45 PM. Reason : .]

11/30/2010 12:44:54 PM

^
I'm not saying you should keep silent about issues such as condom use. I'm saying you shouldn't jump on a person at the mere mention of being religious.

11/30/2010 1:10:48 PM

Quote :

"I'm saying you shouldn't jump on a person at the mere mention of being religious."

I'm not, I just think it's funny when religious folks recognize basically every church/temple/whatever is bullshit, but NO NOT THE ONE I GO TO

11/30/2010 1:24:45 PM

And yet if someone actually tries to help people understand the gospel of Jesus Christ everyone will jump on them. But if they say things like

Quote :

"I've never been subject to or felt scrutiny in the least for anything and have never had any church doctrine pushed on me. Kindness and forgiveness were always preached first and foremost. "

no one cares.

However, saying your church preaches love and forgiveness just construes what the gospels were about. Sure Kindness and forgiveness were preached but there was also a message about the repentance of sin and acceptance of Christ. Salvation does hinge on how much kindness and forgiveness you can dole out.


And to say things like this adds to the argument that those without religion are lacking kindness and forgiveness. Atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, Israelites can all believe in love and forgiveness and no demographic consists of bad people. I can understand the argument atheists pose and many of the reasons they believe in no-god. This does not mean that I ascribe them as the wickedest people on Earth. They are no different than other non-believers or those of different faiths.

I may be a hypocrite when I judged the Catholic church when I should not judge. However, I also feel it is important to explain, according to scripture, why there is a problem with the "progressive" Catholic church.




For McDanger,

I go to many different denominations of chapels. Maybe I didn't make that clear. My faith is strongly based within the Bible, much like many Baptists, Methodists and other denominations. I just feel that certain organizations have forsaken the Bible in favor of power. Surely you can agree that certain organizations have become powerful from religion. Also, many others share my same views on the matter. I am not special in the way I think or in my faith.

[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 1:29 PM. Reason : Derp]

11/30/2010 1:26:18 PM

You're entitled to believe whatever baseless shit you want, honestly. It doesn't bother me and if it makes you happier then fine

But if you can't realize that the very concept of sin itself poisons everything (rather than "sin itself") then I don't know what to tell you.

11/30/2010 1:44:22 PM

The real issue is religion is not based on what feels good and is practical.

It gives us an IDEAL set of laws and rules to live by.

Its not going to teach doctrine on how to safely break those rules or ideals.

If your catholic, its A. not okay to have pre marital sex, B. Its not okay to use forms of birth control.

Thems the facts, if you don't want to live by those rules thats okay, but nobody is forcing you to be catholic.

Part of religion is resisting those urges to do whatever the fuck you want because you feel like it, and its fun, its how you end up with a semi ordered society.

Now you can make your argument about how we have Law now and bla bla bla there is no need and thats fine.

But asking the catholic church to teach about condoms as a means of birth control, or to teach about how to safely have sex before marriage isn't going to happen.

Just like the government isn't going to come out with guidance on, If your going to kill somebody, you should always wear rubber gloves, this way you mitigate your chance of spreading diseases though blood born contact. Nor are they going to produce a PSA about how to safely make a pipe bomb.

The church says no to birth control because they view it as a sin. You don't have to like or believe it.

11/30/2010 1:50:37 PM

Quote :

"But asking the catholic church to teach about condoms as a means of birth control, or to teach about how to safely have sex before marriage isn't going to happen. Just like the government isn't going to come out with guidance on, If your going to kill somebody, you should always wear rubber gloves, this way you mitigate your chance of spreading diseases though blood born contact. Nor are they going to produce a PSA about how to safely make a pipe bomb. The church says no to birth control because they view it as a sin. You don't have to like or believe it."

Except the Catholic church's stance on condoms has extremely wide-reaching, negative consequences for our planet and people

11/30/2010 1:52:43 PM

^ so do many things.

They still aren't going to teach against their doctrine and beliefs.
Now you can debate bible vs pope whatever who cares, its what they believe.

Have you been personally affected as a result of their teachings?

To many people in the world? who are you to say they shouldn't have been born, who is to say that one of those kids might turn out to be the next Norman Borlaug.

Disease getting you down? well perhaps you should have listened to the message when they said "Only have sex with your spouse"

What type of influence to you really believe the catholic church has over the vast majority of the population?


And I would love to see some kinda data showing that the catholic church overall has has a net NEGATIVE effect on the planet or the human population

[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 2:33 PM. Reason : dd]

11/30/2010 2:27:21 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/17/pope-africa-condoms-aids
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1465326.stm
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-17/world/cameroon.pope_1_people-in-sub-saharan-africa-aids-and-hiv-condoms?_s=PM:WORLD
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8399212/ns/health-sexual_health/

Quote :

"Each side has some truth in its argument: Condoms are very effective against the AIDS virus, but data for their effectiveness against some other STDs is surprisingly spotty. “They do not provide 100 percent protection, but for people who are sexually active they are the best and the only method we have for preventing these diseases,” said Heather Boonstra, a public policy official with the Alan Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit group that researches reproductive health issues."

Want me to keep doing homework for you?

11/30/2010 2:38:43 PM

Quote :

"Except the Catholic church's stance on condoms has extremely wide-reaching, negative consequences for our planet and people"

I'll preface this by stating that I've always found the Catholic church's stance on birth control to be ridiculous.

buuuuuut,

I have a hard time believing that someone going against church doctrine and having extra-marital sex is going to choose not to use a condom because the Catholic church says its wrong.

11/30/2010 2:40:30 PM

Quote :

"The Vatican announced today that its publishing house has released a new edition of the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, comprising information from 2000 to 2008, including that the number of Catholics in the world is now 1.16 billion."

http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-29058

1.16 billion people have babies like rabbits is going to affect everyone.

11/30/2010 2:43:00 PM

I've never understood the deal with Catholics and birth control. They're the only ones I've ever encountered where a significant percentage of the church takes that rule seriously.

The Orthodox Church's stance is similar, but I've never met a single member who even claimed to follow that rule -- and it's not like anybody was going to check. I presume it's similar with other denominations who haven't figured out a way to abandon their birth control rules without losing face.

11/30/2010 2:52:31 PM

so all babies are bad?

Or rather you have a problem with Catholics having babies?


and McDanger, while you may disagree with the churches stance on condoms, I'm talking about their overall effect on the human population at large. I would say its positive. Perhaps its just a giant con, but I believe that the 1.x billion catholics get something out of it, perhaps its not getting aids?

and

Quote :

"I have a hard time believing that someone going against church doctrine and having extra-marital sex is going to choose not to use a condom because the Catholic church says its wrong."

Thats a point I was trying to make but didn't say it in a concise manner. You cant blame the church for not protecting people, if you aren't listening to their teachings anyway.

11/30/2010 2:53:13 PM

Quote :

"I have a hard time believing that someone going against church doctrine and having extra-marital sex is going to choose not to use a condom because the Catholic church says its wrong."

The problem is when the Church ties its charity to missionary work. It's also when they spread misinformation about condoms and their effectiveness against the spread of HIV/AIDS.

Quote :

"and McDanger, while you may disagree with the churches stance on condoms, I'm talking about their overall effect on the human population at large. I would say its positive. Perhaps its just a giant con, but I believe that the 1.x billion catholics get something out of it, perhaps its not getting aids?"

Yeah they get something out of it. Does that mean it can't improve as an organization?

Quote :

"You cant blame the church for not protecting people, if you aren't listening to their teachings anyway."

Spreading misinformation about condoms is wrong. Condoms are effective against the spread of HIV/AIDS. Abstinence works in magic-land, but not on Planet Earth.

11/30/2010 3:01:53 PM