I'm getting ready to buy a car for mom, I suspect I'll be stuck w/it at some point. I can only think of the A3 and some new jettas/golfs. Anybody have a more comprehensive list of cars that have had DSG's or other real clutchless manuals?

12/1/2010 12:45:30 PM

how many people here have ever even driven a dual clutch car?

12/1/2010 12:47:45 PM

ford fiesta.

12/1/2010 12:55:30 PM

Does the Fiesta really have it? Awesome! Though that is on the new side, I'd rather get something slightly older so as to avoid that much depreciation.

I'm not strictly speaking of a dsg system. I don't think I want an e46 m3, but that had an optional torque converter-less "auto" as well. I'm wondering what other years/models had them?

12/1/2010 1:18:30 PM

e46 m3

12/1/2010 1:26:08 PM

Quote :

"Does the Fiesta really have it? Awesome!"

yeah, ford calls their 6sp dual-clutch system "powershift"...the wet-clutch version (the NA will be dry) has been available in the european focus for a couple of years, now and the 2010 fiesta is the first NA car to have it...gets 30/40, better than the 5sp manual offering

the 2012 focus will have powershift and the 2.0L ecoboost engine

[/newsblurb]

12/1/2010 2:14:35 PM

I believe the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X is a dual clutch setup.

12/1/2010 3:13:53 PM

Also the mazda 3 I believe

12/1/2010 4:58:43 PM

^^^^ Not a dual-clutch car, or even a true SMG.

12/1/2010 5:16:21 PM

I don't want a lancer or any Evo, this car's going to be my mothers car.

I just want any transmission that has an "automatic" mode, but does not include a torque converter, purchase price needs to be under $20k, much under if possible. The e46 M3 SMG qualifies, but I don't think I want that car either. I'm wondering what else is out there. As far as I know, all Jetta GLIs, and Golf GTIs were available with the DSG since 06, as are Audi A3s (my current favorite). What other VWs or other cars are available, could somebody share? Looks like the Fiesta, I'll look into that, but I don't think she'd like one of those. Awesome that Ford's doing that though (if they indeed are).

12/1/2010 7:18:09 PM

Toyota MR Spyder

It detracts from the performance as compared to the conventional manual version. It's a single-clutch design...not sure if it's a true SMG or an automated H-pattern manual, but that's probably beside the point for your purposes.

12/1/2010 7:32:19 PM

I think the MR Spyder is a bit too small for what I would want her to be driving around in (AKA, what I'd have access to as a 2nd or 3rd car). Great call though, I'd completely forgotten about those. I'll run whatever I come w/by her, and see what she likes. She's pretty all over the place, she liked my Pathfinder (high seating position, more isolated), and the 996 (great agility/ease of "placing" the car). I think that loosely translates to an Audi A3, really, but I could do like a 4 door Golf or something. I don't want to go much smaller than that for her safety either. It may all be in vein, and I may end up getting her a C-class or something (I'd always wanted an older v12 jab), but I just don't want to contribute to adding another slushbox to the roads. I feel like I could convince her to get a manual, but then what kind of son am I, I mean this is supposed to be HER car...

12/1/2010 7:53:37 PM

Chevy malibu, saturn aura.

12/1/2010 8:06:33 PM

I don't want a torque converter w/in 100feet of my house...

12/1/2010 9:57:34 PM

yeah, torque converters are about as cool as AIDS.

12/1/2010 10:29:08 PM

My mom's got a 09 Jetta TDI with it. I drove it to Atlanta over Thanksgiving and it got 42ish mpg. It was also mildly peppy. I wouldn't mind having a diesel sportwagen.

12/1/2010 10:29:16 PM

Quote :

"Awesome that Ford's doing that though (if they indeed are)."

it's true, i tell you! i test drove a fiesta SES hatch (MSRP of $17k, though you can get the powershift on even the $13k base model, i think)...it's downright zippy for what it is...peppier than my saturn's 4cyl, which isn't saying much, i admit, but more than enough for those of us who just want an econobox, especially considering the fuel efficiency

and no torque converter!

12/2/2010 9:00:21 AM

Having a dual clutch is your mom's main criteria when choosing a car? What is she going to do with it, "lite" track days?

If that's really her mimumum requirement, then props to your mom, cause mine only cares about the color of the darn thing. On the second thought, tell her to man up and learn to drive a real manual.

Quote :

"I don't want a torque converter w/in 100feet of my house... "

A little selfish, don't you think?

12/3/2010 10:06:31 AM

Quote :

"I suspect I'll be stuck w/it at some point. "

12/3/2010 10:24:55 AM

deep inside me I knew there was an answer in them there WORDS. I thought Ahmet is a professional car flipper, he should have no problem unloading whatever the car is. Maybe the main reason he will end up with it is because he is not really looking for a car his mom wants to begin with.

12/3/2010 10:41:15 AM

I bought my mom Lexus ES300. Automatic, heated seats, comfortable, compliant ride, smooth V6. She loves it. If it is for your parents, try to "un-bias" yourself as hard as it is.
If YOU will eventually drive it, and budget is wide, look for higher mileage Lexus IS-F. You can pick it up for mid 30s. Suspension on Golf and A3 might be somewhat too stiff for older people and wheelbase is too short to be comfortable. A4 maybe..but it is auto only i think?

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 12:54 PM. Reason : f]

12/3/2010 12:53:27 PM

Quote :

"Toyota MR Spyder"

Quote :

"I just want any transmission that has an "automatic" mode"

The MR2's SMT doesn't have an "automatic" mode. You have to shift, it's just a matter of whether you get the SMT version with the paddle shifters or the true manual transmission.

12/3/2010 1:28:00 PM

Well, it will be her car, but if I'm buying (and I don't know if I am yet), it will not have a torque converter. The IS-F is probably about 3x too expensive.

Does anybody know what years VW offered a DSG?

12/3/2010 2:46:54 PM

Quote :

"torque converters are about as cool as AIDS."

Lol...I'm going to have to turn that into a bumper sticker one day. I'll send you some when I do.

12/3/2010 2:51:21 PM

dsg '06+ on GTI.

12/3/2010 7:00:29 PM

VW Eos

12/4/2010 9:19:11 PM

Quote :

"If that's really her mimumum requirement, then props to your mom"

LOL. My mom requires her cars to be manuals. She was slightly displeased about the automatic lexus.


Then it's color

Quote :

"look for higher mileage Lexus IS-F. You can pick it up for mid 30s."

Please provide sources... most are still in the ~$45 range (2008MY with avg mileage).

[Edited on December 4, 2010 at 10:30 PM. Reason : .]

12/4/2010 10:20:53 PM

IIRC, the is-f is a torque converter auto. The 4.6L engine and the transmission are significantly reworked versions of the drivetrain from the LS460. The trans itself is a version of the 8 speed ZF trans found in a lot of the big bmws and mercedes (maybe some audis, like the a8 too?), the only difference being that the IS-F, when put into a 'sport' mode or when shifted manually, has a full-time lockup clutch when selecting gears 2-8 that bypasses the fluid 'slack' of the torque converter and makes each gear behave more like engaged gears in a 'proper' manual . lockup clutches are pretty nifty band-aids to a lot of the ills of the torque converter... my '06 lincoln ls v8 has a pretty noticeable one, but it isn't particularly effective when driving hard. It primarily functions at constant velocity to improve highway mpg. So if you stand on it from a dead stop, you'll be somewhere in third gear and starting to lift in anticipation of excessive speeding before it locks up, and the car sort of lurches forward slightly as the output to the rear wheels momentarily spikes relative to the engine load when the motor is locked to the rate of the rest of the drivetrain, instead of merely being in relative hydraulic symphony with it.

edit: yup: http://www.lexus.com/models/ISF/features/performance/transmission.html
click the "view demo" buttons on the right margin under "multimedia"

[Edited on December 4, 2010 at 11:40 PM. Reason : added link to lexus.com]

12/4/2010 11:33:22 PM

the wikipedia entry on this topic is pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox

Quote :

" Applications For applications of similar transmissions in other vehicles beyond Volkswagen Groups DSG and S tronic, see dual clutch transmission. Volkswagen Group vehicles with the DSG gearbox include:[8] [edit]Audi After originally using the 'DSG' moniker, Audi subsequently renamed the Direct-Shift Gearbox to "S tronic". Audi TT Audi A1 Audi A3 Audi S3 Audi A4 (B8)[7][12] Audi S4 (B8)[7][12] Audi A5 Audi A7 Audi A8 (D4) Audi Q5[7][12] [edit]Bugatti Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4[6] (developed by Ricardo[20] rather than Borg Warner) [edit]SEAT SEAT Ibiza SEAT León SEAT Altea SEAT Toledo SEAT Alhambra [edit]Škoda Škoda Fabia Škoda Octavia Škoda Superb II Škoda Yeti [edit]Volkswagen Passenger Cars Volkswagen Polo Volkswagen Golf, GTI, R32[2][6] Volkswagen Jetta & Bora Volkswagen Eos Volkswagen Touran[6] (not available in North America) Volkswagen New Beetle (not available in North America) Volkswagen New Beetle Convertible Volkswagen Passat and R36 Volkswagen Passat CC Volkswagen Sharan Volkswagen New Scirocco (not available in North America) Volkswagen Tiguan 2011 [edit]Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles Volkswagen Caddy car-derrived van Volkswagen Transporter (T5) medium van[21] "

.... but that's just the vw/audis.... and the longitudinal audis are only since 2008.... so those are probably too expensive... like the s4, for example...

12/4/2010 11:59:55 PM

^weird, that list didn't point out that the 2004 mk1 audi tt v6 had it first, as distinct from all the mk2 tts which could be ordered with the DSG on either the 2.0T engine or the 3.2 v6. although initially, the 2.0T was ONLY fwd, and then the 3.2v6 was only awd, and the 2.0t awd, whether manual or dsg, didn't become available until relatively recently.... btw, too bad you can't get the tdi in the tt here... the british mags seem to think the dsg tdi fwd tt is the pick of the range.... or they did before the tts and ttrs came out....

12/5/2010 12:05:16 AM

the lancer ralliart has a dual-clutch manual like the evo, and it has a light pressure 2.0 turbo and an active-diff awd, but I remember it being (I actually test-drove one two years ago) more like the base lancer than the balls-out evo. I don't think that one should be given short-shrift. I remember that being a fun but calm little car. It is much more vanilla "impreza/lancer" than hyper "wrx/evo" in personality. I think it might be the only mitsubishi I'd actually recommend to anyone, lol.

http://www.mitsubishicars.com/MMNA/jsp/lancer/11/index.do#/?page=performance

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 12:15 AM. Reason : added link to mitsubishicars.com]

12/5/2010 12:13:02 AM

the latest (2012) focus has an optional dsg ("6 speed powershift" automatic transmission):

http://www.ford.com/cars/focus/2012/features/#page=Feature3

http://green.autoblog.com/tag/2012+ford+focus+powershift/

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 12:20 AM. Reason : added the autoblog link]

12/5/2010 12:19:01 AM

hmmm... looks like the fords with the powershift dual-clutch autos are only able to be manually shifted if equipped with an additional "selectshift" package. So without that option, they're dual-clutch, but neutered to just behave like a non-tiptronic PRNDL auto, except without parasitic torque-converter losses.

.... edit: looks like self-shifting the dsg won't even be an option on the powershift fiestas, and self-shifting will only be available as an optional add-on to powershift focuses.

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 12:30 AM. Reason : details of fiesta]

12/5/2010 12:24:02 AM

I heard something about dual-clutch coming to chrysler a while back, but that was maybe a pre- financial-meltdown rumor...

but this chrysler fansite suggests that the 200 (revised sebring) will be getting a dual clutch on the 4-cyl sometime after the 200's launch...

http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2010/11/chrysler-200-dual-clutch-automatic-coming

.... of course, that means buying what is essentially a sebring over a lot of more compelling cars, and then deciding to forego the new 283hp v6.... I bet this dsg is a version of the getrag that ford is building in mexico for the 2012 focus.

12/5/2010 12:42:11 AM

lol... honda has a dual clutch, but only for its latest vfr bike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBfsCSZwsAc

12/5/2010 12:48:32 AM

here's a gti with dsg for $17k:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LEATHER-Coupe-2-0L-CD-Steering-Wheel-Controls-A-C-Alarm-/190452429599?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2c57d9731f#ht_17118wt_1166

12/5/2010 12:54:17 AM

you've made 8 posts in this thread in 75min. chillax, bro

12/5/2010 12:56:48 AM

Quote :

"the lancer ralliart has a dual-clutch manual like the evo, and it has a light pressure 2.0 turbo and an active-diff awd, but I remember it being (I actually test-drove one two years ago) more like the base lancer than the balls-out evo. I don't think that one should be given short-shrift. I remember that being a fun but calm little car. It is much more vanilla "impreza/lancer" than hyper "wrx/evo" in personality."

the ralliart has 237 hp in the same size package so i can't see how it can be described as 'calm' or like the base lancer in driving characteristics!

12/5/2010 5:49:43 AM

Suspension dynamics oep not hp

12/5/2010 9:46:46 AM

oep: the evo is an exciting but bleeding-edge sort of car that is not fun to be pootled around town gently. It rides like crap, alternately sounds like a diesel truck or king-kong's hairdryer, and gunning it is a nail-biting exercise in upshifting out of the boost for a brief second before it lunges back in.... the base lancer is merely an interchangeably good piece of transportation like the base civic, the base anything, really. but the ralliart is like a very well revised lancer. Not the wrx competitor it was positioned as, cost-wise. I'd put the wrx and sti and evo together as similar cars and the ralliart as merely a nice lancer. someone who drives like a grandma who likes a lancer would probably still like a ralliart but would be horrified by an evo. They're very different cars in terms of personality.

edit: I've only driven the current evo with the 5-speed manual, not the 6-speed "SST" (dsg trans) , and it was a couple years ago. Maybe the car is better now by some electronic revision ( I could imagine an ecu flash could have an effect on smoothness of a run through the gears), but an extra gear and a double-clutch might very well smooth it out and make it more docile. I'll also be the first to admit I had a very short test drive, so I never got all that used to it, and I'm also not the hotshoe that many tww'ers are. So maybe duke can get the latest evo with a stick to behave. But either way, that car has some serious turbo lag and a serious thump when it's on-boost. the lancer ralliart's delivery is nearly as smooth (again, IIRC) as a vw GTI

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 10:36 PM. Reason : neglected to point out I don't have firsthand evo+SST experience]

12/5/2010 10:29:37 PM

thanks for that!

yeah i guess the previous wrx is comparable to the current ralliart, but they moved the current wrx up by giving it more hp and making it more hardcore.

12/6/2010 5:32:06 AM

So I made some progress, she likes the A3, it's too expensive for me to buy it for her though...

I'm going to look at this tomorrow, and I might just swing that:


Supercharged V8, w/a proper AMG slushbox, I guess things could be worse. I think she may find it too large, in which case I might still get something kinda dinky I guess, I'm starting to relent. Saab 9-5 aero maybe? :/

12/23/2010 11:10:14 PM

how about a 9-3x Aero ("Saaburu")?

Quote :

" edit: I've only driven the current evo with the 5-speed manual,"

haha, you should go drive a IX...I think you'd find it significantly more focused and high-strung than even the Evo X you drove.

I actually didn't find my IX to be overly high-strung. The steering and turn-in are lightning-quick, and it doesn't have good sound insulation, and the interior is really plasticky, but it doesn't feel like holding a tiger by the tail...it's as docile as you want it to be, other than maybe feeling a little darty in terms of steering response compared to most cars. I didn't find the ride quality to be bad, or notice the weird power delivery characteristics you describe on the X, other than the power coming on pretty hard with the boost (as can be expected of a car running nearly 20 psi of boost pressure). From everything I've read, the X is significantly more subdued than the IX...

of course, my scale of what's perfectly fine for a grocery-getter might be a little skewed.

That said, my Z06 is a MUCH more intimidating car to drive.

[Edited on December 23, 2010 at 11:26 PM. Reason : I actually thought it to be a very good "everyday" car, considering the melt-your-face performance]

12/23/2010 11:25:02 PM

I think the z06 rides much better, and is quieter than many cars that are not even that sporty. For the grip levels it provides, it's a rather amazing package. The engine is very linear and predictable in it's response too, hard to fault those qualities.

I found the EVO to be borderline unbearable though. Buzzy and annoying engine tone, extremely jerky throttle toe-in, non linear throttle/boost response, etc. That car's just awesome suspension tuning, attached to a huge pile of shit. <-- That might be the first time I've used the S word on a message board. OK, the steering is pretty fast, brakes aren't bad, and the drivetrain whine is kind of cool in small doses, there I said it.

12/24/2010 1:21:51 AM

oh, the Z06 rides like Buick built a sports car. amazing, given that it will damn near detach your retinas if you rail it around a cloverleaf.

i don't find it all that quiet, though...lots of tire noise (though mine are nearly worn out).

I still say the Evo is a pretty agreeable DD, for what it is at least. Maybe you should own one--maybe it just takes a little time to fully endear itself to you (although I will admit that the interior would be not only subpar, but downright unacceptable--except for the glorious seats--in a Chevy Cobalt.)

12/24/2010 1:30:01 AM

[Edited on December 24, 2010 at 9:42 AM. Reason : f]

12/24/2010 9:31:39 AM

I've looked for EVOs, can't find a reasonable deal on one.

As for the mom mobile, I ended up buying her a slush box, cause she was too cheap to spend more than $10k. It is an 850 T-5. Feels pretty peppy, I'll see if I can up the boost some.

12/24/2010 6:18:53 PM

^ nice. should've just gotten a t-5r though!

12/24/2010 8:40:19 PM

I mean, running gear wise, it's a flash away from being exactly a T-5R or faster. It feels pretty fast actually, I wonder if it's already been done...

12/24/2010 8:44:44 PM

Quote :

"It is an 850 T-5."

12/24/2010 10:34:30 PM