all right, which one of you did this?
http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/9065321/

2/6/2011 5:59:52 PM

Quote :

"OFF GUY ROAD"

2/6/2011 6:34:43 PM

I bet the perp was a Christian.

2/6/2011 8:54:06 PM

bizzel will probably find a way to give the arsonists a reward

2/6/2011 9:09:12 PM

Quote :

"I bet the perp was a Christian."

Muslims, Mormans and religious Jews are none to found of homosexuals either.

2/6/2011 9:22:09 PM

Muslims mormons and jews in Johnston County know better than to burn down someone's house.

[Edited on February 6, 2011 at 10:11 PM. Reason : ]

2/6/2011 10:11:48 PM

burning down someones house is pretty gay

2/6/2011 10:12:18 PM

damn, could anything solidify homosexuality as today's civil rights struggle more than senseless aggression like this?

Do you think this will make national news? I guess they might just never find out who did it and then it'll fade away.

2/6/2011 10:30:00 PM

Quote :

"bizzel will probably find a way to give the arsonists a reward "

Only if they aren't brown people.

Then he'll DEFINITELY find them.

2/6/2011 10:43:22 PM

really? burn down someone's house because they're gay?

stupid fucks.

2/6/2011 11:26:08 PM

I assumed this thread was about this:



http://www.hrcbackstory.org/2010/09/lesbian%E2%80%99s-home-burned-down-in-tennessee/

Quote :

""Lesbians’ Home Burned Down in Tennessee" Many of us who are LGBT have endured poor treatment — slights, looks, subtle hostilities. Few of us have our homes burned down because of it. This is what appears to have happened several days ago to Carol Ann and Laura Stutte, long-time life partners who have been together for 15 years and are raising a daughter in the small town of Vonore, Tennessee, just south of Knoxville."

This was from a few months back, but it popped back up in the news recently because something about the court case moving forwards.

2/6/2011 11:28:52 PM

the gay couple in the OP also had anti-gay graffiti sprayed on the house

2/6/2011 11:36:45 PM

Thread could just have easily been about this:

http://www.thegavoice.com/index.php/news/georgia-news-menu/1947-mother-of-gay-carrollton-man-speaks-out-on-suspected-arson-of-his-home

Quote :

"Mother of gay Carrollton man speaks out on suspected arson of his home by Dyana Bagby January 25, 2011 18:20 Wanda Morris said she’s still “in shock” that someone allegedly tried to burn her son’s house down with him inside simply because he is gay. “We’ve lived here 31 years and never had a cross word with anyone,” she told the GA Voice today. Christopher Staples, 43, was inside his small home in Carroll County on Sunday when he said a rock with an anti-gay note attached was thrown through his window. Hours later, Staples said he woke up to find his home engulfed in flames. Carroll County is some 50 miles west of Atlanta."

2/6/2011 11:44:18 PM

they're called flaming queers for a reason

2/7/2011 12:20:18 AM

Indeed.

From your original story:



http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/10/13/Police_Say_Fire_At_Knoxville_Gay_Bar_Deliberate/


Posted on Advocate.com October 13, 2010

Quote :

"The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation laboratory is analyzing samples from the burned area to determine what kind of accelerant was used to start the fire. "

[Edited on February 7, 2011 at 12:28 AM. Reason : larger version]

2/7/2011 12:23:42 AM

did they really have to live in a big pink house

2/7/2011 12:25:44 AM

I think we need to talk about hate crimes.

Then we need to talk about how all crimes are the same, regardless of motive, so there's really no such thing.

Then we need to argue about it for several pages ITT. Because, you know, it's never been done before.

2/7/2011 12:36:15 AM

don't forget the part where the libertarians turn it into an argument about government and libertarianism

2/7/2011 1:01:27 AM

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/02/04/Lesbian_Beaten_Arrested_and_Targeted/

Quote :

"Posted on Advocate.com February 04, 2011 Lesbian Beaten, Arrested, and Targeted A 25-year-old Alabama woman who says she was beaten outside a bar by a dozen people and then arrested claims she’s being unfairly targeted because she’s gay. Laura Gilbert and a friend went to the Villa off Highway 169 in Opelika, Ala., for a night of celebratory karaoke. It was Gilbert’s first time there. "As soon as we walked in the bar, I felt uncomfortable," she said. "I felt everybody staring at us, but you know, it was her birthday, I didn't want to ruin it for her." According to Gilbert, when the pair were about to leave, they were confronted by a female patron and a fight broke out. The melee moved outside and grew to about a dozen people, including two men. Gilbert’s friend called 911 and an officer arrived. "They didn’t take our side of the story," Gilbert said. "They took their side of the story, and then all of a sudden, they come up behind me and tell me to put my hands behind my back, that I’m going to jail." Gilbert, who was taken into custody for disorderly conduct and public intoxication, was the only person from the fracas who was arrested."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/01/15/2010-01-15_hatecrime_charges_in_qns_attack.html

Quote :

"Daniel Aleman, 26, and Daniel Rodriguez, 21, each face up to 25 years in prison if convicted of the assault and robbery rap. Queens prosecutors say the duo spotted Jack Price, 49, walking near his home in College Point around 4:30 a.m. on Oct. 8 and shouted anti-gay slurs. Then they allegedly punched, stomped and kicked Price. After he fell to the ground, they stole his wallet and cash, officials said. The vicious attack was captured on surveillance video."

http://www.towleroad.com/2009/11/gay-puerto-rican-teen-decapitated-dismembered-and-burned.html

Quote :

"Gay Puerto Rican Teen Decapitated, Dismembered, and Burned Over the weekend the brutalized body of gay teen George Steven Lopez Mercado was found by the side of a road in Puerto Rico. The police investigator suggested that he deserved what he got because of the "type of lifestyle" he was leading."

http://www.avp.org/documents/2008HVReportDraft3smallerfile.pdf

The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs has reported about 2000+ such incidents a year in the US, about 20 to 30 of them each year being murders (at least for the past several years, I didn't look back earlier than 2008).

2/7/2011 2:14:58 AM

Quote :

"did they really have to live in a big pink house"

I thought it was cream-colored on the top and the combination of the lighting and the shitty camera made it look kinda sorta pink

2/7/2011 4:04:53 AM

This is terrible and barbaric. People can hate gays all they want, but acting upon it by burning down their houses, savagely beating them, or killing them is just horrible and something I can't understand, in this day and age, AND in the USA.

Quote :

"The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs has reported about 2000+ such incidents a year in the US, about 20 to 30 of them each year being murders"

If there are that many murders a year, how come they don't become as big news as that Matthew guy from Wyoming? They should [become big news]. The only way to undo this tide of violence is to make every murder (and beating, burning, etc) big news and to villify the killers.

2/7/2011 6:58:26 AM

Because if the accuracy of their numbers is "about 20 to 30" then it makes me wonder the accuracy of their labeling. Stories only become nationwide sensations if they have the details to capture the audience (see young white women getting murdered)

RE: Hate crimes, it is possible to like having a government but not like having your thoughts turned into a crime. You really undermine your argument by attempting to ridicule the opposing side before the opposing side even shows up. Why don't you present a cogent argument for the purpose of punishing more harshly this arson than any other malicious arson?

2/7/2011 9:01:26 AM

Quote :

"RE: Hate crimes, it is possible to like having a government but not like having your thoughts turned into a crime. You really undermine your argument by attempting to ridicule the opposing side before the opposing side even shows up. Why don't you present a cogent argument for the purpose of punishing more harshly this arson than any other malicious arson?"

This is exhausting because I do this every single time this topic is brought up.

It's extremely simple. Hatefully killing someone of a particular group as a message (or in a way that reasonable constitutes a message) causes social damage, and requires extra punishment (as it is causing strictly more damage than "any other malicious arson"). Going after somebody because they're gay and making sure they and others know it is sending a message.

It's not the same as burning somebody's house down because you don't like them. It doesn't mean that's somehow "not as bad" anymore, it just means that burning somebody's house to terrify blacks, gays, Muslims, or whatever, warrants extra punishment because it is causing extra harm.

[Edited on February 7, 2011 at 11:27 AM. Reason : .]

2/7/2011 11:12:44 AM

Yeah, totally. The minimum sentence for any kind of arson is about 20 years. Do you think the arsonist is going to regret what he did after 20 years? Hell no. Tack on another 5 years for doing it because of hate, though, and he definitely will.

Also, think of the deterrent effect. When a raging homophobe is considering burning down a building that belongs to a gay person, knowing that he might get 20 years in prison is basically no deterrent at all. Knowing that he might get 25 or 30? Now he's thinking twice about it.

2/7/2011 12:03:02 PM

IT BEGINS








iop1

2/7/2011 12:09:33 PM

I'm not really interested in arguing with people who don't understand the form and purpose of arguments, so you libertarians have fun playing academy

2/7/2011 12:20:55 PM

I wasn't planning on hashing out the details again, we've been through it time and time again. I've made my point, you insist that people should be jailed for, "social harm," and you refuse to recognize how absurd that notion actually is. There's nothing more to talk about.

2/7/2011 12:31:24 PM

Quote :

"I've made my point, you insist that people should be jailed for, "social harm," and you refuse to recognize how absurd that notion actually is."

Neither you or anyone else ever made the argument that "social harm" is an absurd notion. It's not, as McDanger has already addressed the act of killing or arson as a message. Do you need more dots connected? Such an act is used for spreading fear. I would be scared shitless if I were black and a bunch of racists burnt down a black man's house in my community after painting racist slurs on it.

There's nothing obvious or non obvious about the notion of "social harm". There are only good arguments and bad arguments. You've made no argument and gotten all hot and bothered from the person who did. This is trolling behavior and shows that you apparently lead a sad existence, incapable of communicating with other human beings.

[Edited on February 7, 2011 at 1:06 PM. Reason : ]

2/7/2011 1:06:01 PM

Quote :

"This is trolling behavior and shows that you apparently lead a sad existence, incapable of communicating with other human beings."

When you pulled the troll card, and then followed it with that statement, I had to laugh. The fact of the matter is that we've been through this exact debate probably 3 or 4 times now. No one ever changes their mind, the same arguments are always used, and frankly, it's not worth anyone's time. Just search TSB for "hate crime" and you can see what both sides have said.

2/7/2011 1:12:15 PM

Social harm itself is ambiguous and arbitrary. That's why I'm not comfortable in the writing of laws that punish based on some notion of causing it.

Social harm is obviously a product of combined mental harm of individuals in the community. Does every individual have the same tolerance for psychological damage? Will every gay person in Johnston County be affected by this in the same degree? Will other non-gay people but are just generally sensitive and paranoid be affected worse? It seems to me like any idea of 'social harm' is what you (being whomever is talking about the social harm) think the amount of harm ought to be without any sort of evidence.

If you just assume that a homosexual's house burning down sends a message, then does the person's motive even matter? What if his house burned down because of a homeowner's accident, but the public still thought that it was a message against the gay community? Would they then not be liable for the 'social harm?'

Call me a crazy libertarian for not being a fan of laws like this if you want.

Further, would an arson in an affluent white community not cause a lot of additional psychological damage because the affluent white people are now fearful that their community is being assaulted and their house could be next? Would the social harm caused by that crime also merit hate crime punishment?

And finally would it be a hate crime if I called you all pussies for pulling the "we've beaten this horse before so I'm not going to do this again BUT THE OTHER SIDE IS TOTALLY STUPID, bye" card?

[Edited on February 7, 2011 at 1:30 PM. Reason : .]

2/7/2011 1:16:10 PM

would a serial killer that targeted prostitutes also be convicted of hate crimes?...I'm sure that totally puts the whore community on edge whilst they're out turning tricks

but yes, whoever set that fire should be punished to the full extent of the law, whatever that may be.

2/7/2011 1:38:03 PM

^^ If the event was unconnected to the repeated harassment they were getting before it, then fine, that's the way it is. There would be no hate crime aspect to it at all.

I understand the hesitation to extraordinary punishment for a given crime. But if punishment is insensitive to the specific conditions of the crime, then lawbreaking can become commodified. Say everyone in a community absolutely hate a certain person. In a completely deterministic sentencing system then that community can just calmly and cooly figure out some crap to do that only takes small legal tolls on individuals.

How would you sentence the person who wrote QUEER on their house before the incident? Simple vandalism? Really? I think not.

Again, i see problems with it. But I don't understand how you can address the issue, and more generally legally protect the rights of persecuted minorities without any kind of similar provision. What is the libertarian take on that?

2/7/2011 2:19:23 PM

I'm not libertarian and I don't speak for libertarians, but

Quote :

"Again, i see problems with it. But I don't understand how you can address the issue, and more generally legally protect the rights of persecuted minorities without any kind of similar provision. What is the libertarian take on that?"

In a world where every crime is punished equally I don't see how the rights of persecuted minorities is not protected. Why do minorities need hate crime legislation to be protected?

Quote :

"How would you sentence the person who wrote QUEER on their house before the incident? Simple vandalism? Really? I think not."

Yes, vandalism, maybe destruction of property depending on the details. You could probably throw criminal trespass in there.

The word "QUEER" in and of itself has no absolute offensiveness; it's only in the reader's response can you gauge offense and that is 100% relative to the observer. What if he wrote "FUCKHEAD"? That's going to cause some amount of social harm to people offended by it, right?

I have no qualms with someone who is demonstrably psychologically damaged bringing suit to someone who offensively damages them, but to punish people more harshly based on some amorphous "social harm" is scary.

2/7/2011 2:38:54 PM

Aren't there terrorizing laws on the books in most places? seems like that would adequately cover most situations involving repeated threats/intimidation for whatever reason.

2/7/2011 2:39:28 PM

Quote :

"I wasn't planning on hashing out the details again, we've been through it time and time again. I've made my point, you insist that people should be jailed for, "social harm," and you refuse to recognize how absurd that notion actually is. There's nothing more to talk about."

Quote :

"This is trolling behavior"

It's definitely trolling behavior. It's my favorite way to troll friends into arguments they don't want to have.

Step 1) Declare stalemate, or similarly make some gesture of getting past a disagreement
Step 2) Casually insult the opposing point of view

2/7/2011 2:42:54 PM

Quote :

"I bet the perp was a Christian."

Quote :

"Muslims, Mormans and religious Jews are none to found of homosexuals either."

Let me guess, you don't consider Catholics Christians either.

2/7/2011 3:22:07 PM

It would be hypocritical to claim to practice a religion of peace and then act so violently with no good reason. And while some churches use their tax exempt status to engage in political behavior for all its worth, and some do spread hate, you still can't fairly paint all churches with a broad brush. Paint groups with broad brushes is what leads to messes like these. So here are a few counter examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_Christian_denominations

Quote :

"North American: * Affirming Pentecostal Church * Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists * Ecumenical Catholic Church * International Christian Community Churches * Community of Christ USA a Latter Day Saint denomination * Evangelical Lutheran Church in America * Episcopal Church (United States) * Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals * Metropolitan Community Church * Old Catholic Church * Restoration Church of Jesus Christ (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA) — a Latter Day Saint denomination * United Church of Christ * United Church of Canada * Presbyterian Church (USA) Europe: Europe * German Lutheran, reformed and united churches in Evangelical Church in Germany * Swiss reformed churches in Swiss Reformed Church * Netherlands Protestant Church in the Netherlands * Danish Church of Denmark * Norway Church of Norway * Swedish Church of Sweden * Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland * Icelandic Church of Iceland"

I remember hearing a lot about Catholics for Marriage Equality's works, especially in pushing for equal rights up in New England. And there are pro-gay churches of about every faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_denominations_in_Judaism

Quote :

" * Conservative Judaism in North America - (Mixed support) * Reform Judaism in North America * Reconstructionist Judaism * Humanistic Judaism"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_religious_groups

Quote :

" Islam: * Al-Fatiha Foundation * Imaan - UK support group for LGBT Muslims, Muslims questioning their sexuality or gender identity, and their friends and allies. "

Quote :

"Baha'i Gay/Lesbian Baha'i Story Project http://www.gaybahai.net/ [edit] Unitarian Universalism [edit] Denominations * Unitarian Universalist Association * Canadian Unitarian Council [edit] Denomination-sanctioned programmes * Welcoming Congregation [edit] Buddhism [edit] Denominations * Soka Gakkai International * SGI-USA"

And most of that is on the denomination level, there are plenty much churches if you look at it from the congregation level.

Even here is North Carolina we had this happen recently:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/12/27/1936344/gay-man-leads-nc-church-association.html

Quote :

"Gay man leads N.C. church association RALEIGH As the newly elected president of the N.C. Council of Churches, Stan Kimer is typical of those who served before him: a retired business executive, longtime churchgoer and member of several nonprofit organization boards. He's also openly gay. ... That makes Kimer's presidency of the N.C. Council - a coalition of 17 Christian denominations and eight individual churches that work on social issues - historic in the South."

And for another local example, one crazy bunch of fundies shows up to protest the gay pride event in Durham ever year. About 10 to 20 churches participate by marching in the parade or handing out water bottles to people who are walking.



[Edited on February 7, 2011 at 3:47 PM. Reason : .]

2/7/2011 3:42:34 PM

Quote :

"NONE TO FOUND"

2/7/2011 5:13:45 PM

death penalty.

it doesn't matter why. it just matters that it happened.

2/7/2011 5:29:34 PM

Quote :

"it doesn't matter why. it just matters that it happened."

Why do you think this?

2/7/2011 5:33:59 PM

why someone commits a crime is a useless fact.

if someone wants to go through life killing, raping, beating, burning, etc. then what needs to happen is for the public to be protected; more times than not, such people don't care about punishment, prison, consequences, and are beyond feasible rehabilitation. the only thing that matters is preventing them from being part of society and endangering the public. stick'em in a hole for the remainder of their life or put them to death. in no way does the why matter.

2/7/2011 5:38:31 PM

If anyone wants to help the couple whose house got burned, the LGBT Center of Raleigh is helping with that:

Quote :

"ACTION ALERT! The LGBT Center of Raleigh will be accepting donations for the male couple that were subject to an outrageous hate crime in Johnston county. You may bring your donation to 316 W. Cabarrus St, Raleigh, NC 27601."

Quote :

"Household Items and Monetary donations are appreciated. Anyone interested in making online donations please do so on our website. Please include in your comments that the donation is to support the couple."

http://www.lgbtcenterofraleigh.com/site/contribute

2/7/2011 5:45:10 PM

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/9071284/

Doesn't appear to be a hate crime anymore. No evidence of that. They had moved and nobody was there. Possible squatter in the house, or insurance fraud?

2/7/2011 5:46:14 PM

Quote :

"Arson evidence doesn't point to gay hate crime Smithfield, N.C. — Johnston County’s sheriff said Monday that there’s no indication right now that a fire set to a gay couple’s home last week is a hate crime, despite previous reports that the two had been harassed. “As the investigation moves forward, if we see any indication that the hate crime status applies, we will consider it,” Sheriff Steve Bizzell said. Agents with the State Bureau of Investigation and federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives joined sheriff’s detectives Monday afternoon in their investigation. It’s unclear what started the fire, but a search warrant released Monday indicates that the blaze was set from within the home, in the Winston Pointe subdivision, off Guy Road just outside Clayton. The couple did not want to talk to the media Monday, but neighbors have said the men have been harassed on several occasions over the past year. Bizzell declined to comment on the current investigation but said his office has was aware of two previous reports – one on Dec. 10, 2009, in which someone put a note in the mailbox saying “move sinners” and a second complaint on Nov. 1 about a homophobic slur left on the back of the house."

^From the article you just posted it looks like they are still thinking arson based on the title, they just haven't found any notes or spray painted messages indicating motivations. The original story lewisje posted also had no evidence of motivation, just references to past incidents. There is equally no evidence of squatters, no evidence of fraud, or no evidence for any other reasoning behind it that I've seen discussed in the news so far.

[Edited on February 7, 2011 at 5:55 PM. Reason : .]

2/7/2011 5:55:25 PM

Yep but rampant speculation was going on in this thread that somebody torched it because of their sexual orientation, so I figured that it was open season for any other random speculation.

2/7/2011 5:56:53 PM

And bingo, gay person's house burns down, it's automatically assumed that it was a hate crime. Why would I have a problem with prosecuting hate crimes more heavily?

Quote :

"Aren't there terrorizing laws on the books in most places? seems like that would adequately cover most situations involving repeated threats/intimidation for whatever reason. "

And what do we get when we get to label people terrorists and punish them differently? Authorized assassinations of Americans without due process.

2/7/2011 7:12:19 PM

so your problem with charging someone for a hate crime (which wasn't done) is because something might play out wrong in the media while they are investigating? that sounds silly.

2/7/2011 7:42:22 PM

I'll admit...I thought it was a hate crime at first; also, "terrorism" is normally used when the intent is to scare an entire populace or the government, while "hate crime" is used when the intent is to scare an identifiable demographic group, especially one that has been historically oppressed.

Quote :

"Further, would an arson in an affluent white community not cause a lot of additional psychological damage because the affluent white people are now fearful that their community is being assaulted and their house could be next? Would the social harm caused by that crime also merit hate crime punishment?"

It would if it were made clear that the intent was to sack the rich and kill whitey.

2/7/2011 9:08:16 PM

I'm still confused libertarians.

How are persecuted groups protected from the tyranny of the majority that hates them? If classification of 'hate' stuff didn't exist, then everyone who sees them on the street should be able to shout gay slurs at these people. Am I wrong? If it's not a direct threat, what laws does this fall under? Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the answer is 'nothing' if not hate speech.

So, sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me? What about constant and systemic harassment that causes certain groups to leave certain areas entirely. That's not a country I want to live in, and as much as I love me some libertarian cause, it seems to me right now that they've got nothing for this.

And plus, even the most libertarian of us all should admit the danger in direct threats. Can't persecution cross the line into indirect threats? I mean, let's be honest here, gay guy in town A get harassed and then killed, you live in town B right next to it and get harassed for your gayness... what comes next here people?

[Edited on February 7, 2011 at 10:18 PM. Reason : ]

2/7/2011 10:14:51 PM

^^Given the history of harassment against the couple and the history of arson against gay people as a your kind aren't welcomed here tactic, it isn't unreasonable to include that among the list of possibilities. And just as there is no evidence to conclude that is what happened, there is no evidence yet to remove it from the list of possibilities.

As to the broader issue of gay people being targeted, I think the priority for government involvement should be removing its anti-gay laws. Lawrence V Texas got being gay off the books as illegal, DADT repeal is another example, getting rid of DOMA would be great too because it prevents even states that have voted to allow gay couples to get married from being able to fully implement their own laws, and of course keeping new constitutional amendments from happening at the state or federal level. If we could get the government out of the business of officially declaring gay people less than others, then maybe their wouldn't be as great of a need for codified protections and laws.

I mean no one denies that gay people are targeted for crimes at times, or even straight people who are perceived as gay (I recall those brothers where I think one of them was beaten to death a year or two back b/c of a hug or maybe they held hands, being from a different culture, or something), there is just a different idea about what should be done about it. I think removing bad laws is where there is the greatest room for coalition and consensus building (between liberals, fiscally focused republicans, & libertarian), and so the pragmatist in me says that should be the priority.

[Edited on February 7, 2011 at 10:18 PM. Reason : .]

2/7/2011 10:15:30 PM