Wow! What an education in poverty and class. Here's the story. I substitute in Wake county and today I was at a High school and taught three classes - two AP English class and a remedial English class. It was a lot different than I expected.

The remedial class was reasonably respectful and it was an inspiration to see these kids, who have never had an advantage in their entire lives, struggle to put together a reasonable sentence. That they stuck with it was a credit to their spirit.

As far as the AP class goes, I have never seen a more disrespectful bunch of entitled brats, with every advantage in the world, cheat their way through an assignment in my life.

People talk about underprivileged kids, but there is never a discussion of the overprivileged.

Of course all of these clueless snot-nosed brats will get into NC State, get their degrees, make good money, become Republicans, and then complain about how the biggest cause of poverty is laziness.

There is no answer. Nobody said life was fair.

/Rant.

"There is no higher God than truth." M. Gandi ...

2/10/2011 5:37:34 PM

Snot-nosed brats suck.

Just like your post.

2/10/2011 5:44:21 PM

you are basing your opinions on all high school kids based on one filler assignment?

2/10/2011 5:50:45 PM

Quote :

"Of course all of these clueless snot-nosed brats will get into NC State, get their degrees, make good money, become Republicans, and then complain about how the biggest cause of poverty is laziness."

Some of them will. At least half, though, will get into UNC, get their degree in philosophy, work service industry jobs or move back in with their parents, become Democrats/Marxists, and then complain about how the biggest cause of poverty is free enterprise.

2/10/2011 5:53:24 PM

And ending your post with a quotation.....classy.

Though the implication that stuck up brats go to NC State indicates the falsify and potential troll nature of this post. Very subtle.

2/10/2011 5:55:06 PM

? Did you mean: Gandhi

2/10/2011 6:17:33 PM

What if:

It's not their privilege that makes them more successful later in life, but their lack of respect, their sense of entitlement, and their ability to get away with cheating that makes them successful in the future.



[Edited on February 10, 2011 at 6:24 PM. Reason : edit ]

2/10/2011 6:23:59 PM

^ that would be a sad commentary on our society...

2/10/2011 6:45:55 PM

kids not going to college due to not being able to put together sentences ITT

2/10/2011 7:05:57 PM

They probably just dont respect you or the subject.

Do they means test the kids in AP now? I figured they just try to put the smarter kids in there, not the ones whose parents have the most money.

2/10/2011 8:23:39 PM

http://wins.failblog.org/2011/02/08/epic-win-photos-engineering-class-win/

^ rofl, on average, those are one and the same

[Edited on February 10, 2011 at 8:25 PM. Reason : .]

2/10/2011 8:24:58 PM

I'll admit that I might have gotten off on the wrong foot with them. It started when this girl walks in, sits down, and then hands her math homework to a guy who proceeds to copy it all, dot for dot. After he was done she hands it to another guy who starts to copy it. Finally I couldn't take any more and I told them that I couldn't bear to watch another person copy her homework - that it was making me feel kind of dirty - and they'll have to do it in another class (actually I told them it was leaving such a bad taste in my mouth I just might have to gargle) . She said, "The teacher lets us do it. Besides, it's not for this class."

Meanwhile, in the very next class period, I've got to try to explain to this poor kid, who has probably never heard a formal sentence at home in his entire life, why "might could" and "might would" are not appropriate in a proper sentence.

It's then that I realize that these AP kids - the paragons of achievement - will probably get in to any college of their choice, which will allow them to coast through life and look down their noses at this poor kid who has probably put more effort into simple things then they have in their entire lives (I'm not bitter).

Meanwhile, we've decided that the best hope for this poor kid's future is to take him out of good schools and put him in schools with everyone else that doesn't know it's wrong to say "might could" in a formal paper, because leaving him in a good school only masks the problems associated with poor neighborhoods (I'm really not bitter).

Anyway, I realize there is no solution, because these very same kids (the ones who, by virtue of their education, have acquired power and influence) will never acknowledge that being born upper middle class has given them any advantage at all, and that they've worked hard for all they've achieved. And the only reason that the poor kid is working at McD's is because he's lazy.

/2nd Rant ...

[Edited on February 10, 2011 at 9:14 PM. Reason : *~<]BO]

2/10/2011 9:12:27 PM

put your effort into the students who need/want your help. fuck the rest

2/10/2011 9:18:45 PM

Quote :

"I'll admit that I might have gotten off on the wrong foot with them. It started when this girl walks in, sits down, and then hands her math homework to a guy who proceeds to copy it all, dot for dot. After he was done she hands it to another guy who starts to copy it. Finally I couldn't take any more and I told them that I couldn't bear to watch another person copy her homework - that it was making me feel kind of dirty - and they'll have to do it in another class (actually I told them it was leaving such a bad taste in my mouth I just might have to gargle) . She said, "The teacher lets us do it. Besides, it's not for this class." "

You probably realized this, but she lied to you. No teacher would let that happen, and you really didn’t handle it seriously enough, IMO.

2/10/2011 9:26:06 PM

So, why are these kids in the remedial class? Are we saying that it is entirely their home life that has got them there? Did no teachers from K-8 do them a damn bit of good?

I get your sentiments, just how in the world do you break this cycle? While we are discussing it, can we at least admit that perhaps genetics really does have at least something to do with it?

I went to high school with a kid that was absolutely dirt poor. Dirt poor. Single parent home (though the single was a father, which likely made all the difference). Subsidized lunch and shit all the way through. Had to have boosters at the school pay for his athletic equipment (ie, his cleats) just so he could play. And now he is solidly middle class with a wife and kids.

Sure, anecdotes are like assholes, but I have a real hard time getting up in arms about this when we have plenty of examples to the contrary that poor = dumb.

2/10/2011 9:29:35 PM

Quote :

"Sure, anecdotes are like assholes, but I have a real hard time getting up in arms about this when we have plenty of examples to the contrary that poor = dumb. "

No one’s saying poor=dumb, theyre saying poor=disadvantaged. This is exemplified in pretty much every statistic, ever.

2/10/2011 9:34:01 PM

Quote :

"No one’s saying poor=dumb, theyre saying poor=disadvantaged"

Disadvantaged apparently makes them dumb though.

Which is the grand problem with liberal ideology. I'm not poor yet I'm disadvantaged compared to someone else. Or, are we saying we need to define some sort of minimum standard to bring everyone up to?

My friend was disadvantaged as well and he turned out just fine.

[Edited on February 10, 2011 at 9:36 PM. Reason : a]

2/10/2011 9:36:02 PM

Quote :

"Disadvantaged apparently makes them dumb though. "

It tends to make someone uneducated.

But why do you keep bringing up your friend? Do you realize the difference between anecdotes and statistics?

“poor” people can be educated, if our education system was better. “disadvantaged” has a specific sociological/political meaning.

[Edited on February 10, 2011 at 9:43 PM. Reason : ]

2/10/2011 9:42:30 PM

Because there is nothing about these touted statistics that I imagine surprises me. First, these studies that you are making a veiled reference to, do they define "disadvantaged"? If they do, then we need to have a talk about if that is even valid.

I read a summary of one that basically said there is no real difference in educational improvement between these two sets of kids (advantaged and disadvantaged) during the school year, that the gap develops from the summer where the advantaged kids are going to educational camps and the disadvantaged ones are staying at home and fucking around.

However, I'd be surprised if we see if a study exists that follows both of these groups well into there career to know to what extent the cycle gets reinforced or if it breaks.

I bring up my friend because he fit all the statistics of disadvantaged and yet he likely has broken the cycle.

[Edited on February 10, 2011 at 9:55 PM. Reason : .]

2/10/2011 9:53:57 PM

Thank you Chance. I can't help but think your arguments will help my case ...

I was going to start to making counter arguments until I read this:

Quote :

"can we at least admit that perhaps genetics really does have at least something to do with it?"

Then, when you contended that because there is a sample at the high end of the probability curve they all should be there, I realized that you might just be the kind of person I'm talking about. You're willing to put your beliefs (ego/self justification) above your knowledge of statistics. And you've got a degree in engineering ...


[Edited on February 10, 2011 at 10:02 PM. Reason : *~<]BO]

2/10/2011 9:54:52 PM

Fantastic, so we can't even have the discussion about how much of an impact it plays? How do you expect guys like me that are generally fiscally conservative but socially sympathetic to just these types of causes to break with our hard earned dollars when you are refusing to analyze the entire problem?

Will you not agree that genetically, it's pretty damn likely that despite being a really good soccer player and kicker in high school that a 5'8" 160lb kid likely doesn't have a future in that area in college or the NFL? Is it not equally reasonable that some people simply aren't capable cognitively? I work with guys that have BS degrees in engineering. I feel pretty confident many of them can do the work we are doing. I also deal with guys at length that don't have a 4 year degree and I am also pretty confident that even with a lot of training they could never do the work we are doing. Just in dealing with them you can tell that even boiling down the terminology and the concepts to it's basic principles the ideas aren't comprehended. That isn't to say they couldn't be per se without a dedicated effort, but then you'd have to ask if that is the case, why is their job their job and why was a 4 year degree not their path?

Are you somehow suggesting that yes, these people could do the work if we simply spent more money on them?

[Edited on February 10, 2011 at 10:02 PM. Reason : .]

Quote :

" I can't help but think your arguments will help my case ... "

I'm just an engineer, I guess I didn't comprehend what exactly your case was. Are you implying that I was an overprivileged spoiled brat who had everything handed to him growing up, that I cheated my way into what I got, and that I'm generally undeserving of the majority of it?

We can talk about what my child hood was like if you want.


[Edited on February 10, 2011 at 10:04 PM. Reason : .]

2/10/2011 10:00:23 PM

Quote :

"What if: It's not their privilege that makes them more successful later in life, but their lack of respect, their sense of entitlement, and their ability to get away with cheating that makes them successful in the future."

This is actually very insightful. The more I hear from social scientists, the more I get the idea that the emotional endowment of the privileged is far greater than those trust funds.

This, incidentally, is said to be the one and only driver of difference between men and women in science and math. Little boys have expectations placed on them that they'll do well at it. I remember when I struggled in 8th grade math, I'd have the parent teacher conference, and later my parents wouldn't scold me, they'd complain about how terrible of a teacher I had. And what do you know? I went into the sciences.

2/10/2011 10:06:54 PM

Quote :

"the advantaged kids are going to educational camps and the disadvantaged ones are staying at home and fucking around"

guess what the parents of the disadvantaged kids can't afford

also for many an older disadvantaged kid, *working* is more commonly done, even during the school year

2/10/2011 10:20:06 PM

true, obviously money is a factor, but it's not the only one and it certainly isn't one that can't be overcome. I think it's fair to say that, most of the time, kids from affluent families are brought up in an overall culture of success. They are taught to be winners, and that is the expectation. This is no surprise, as their parents aren't affluent because they fuck off all day and half-ass everything. I believe that's the bigger factor than the direct impact of dollars and cents, although I certainly won't say that money never has anything directly to do with it.


Side anecdote: my family was lower middle class until I was probably 12 or so (dad was a barber; mom didn't work). By the time I graduated highschool, we were very upper middle class (dad ran an insurance agency; mom went back to work). Still, I worked during highschool and college--yes, even during the school year.

I narrowly escaped having to work in the tobacco fields around my house...my dad wanted me to do it and almost forced me to several times (I think mom intervened), just for the "educational experience" it would give me (my dad always said that priming tobacco growing up was the education that had been his key to success ). He finally let it go when I joined the Marines--I think he figured that was a suitable alternative education in the school of hard knocks.

2/10/2011 10:42:24 PM

I'm curious to know what fucking school you're subbing at.

I was a substitute for a year at a Wake County high school. Mostly I had remedial or basic level classes, and I've never met a more disrespectful bunch of pricks in my life. Kids for whom no punishment or threat of punishment did anything. Kids who would ignore any and all instruction. Kids who would talk shit about me when they didn't think I could hear (or, in the case of the Hispanic kids, understand -- though I proved them wrong pretty quick).

Worst of all was the kids who were obviously very smart but still acted like stupid assholes because it was cool to do so. I read through several rounds of papers and tests, and recognizing these kids was not hard. Often the kids who did the best acted the worst, or near enough to it.

The IB classes I taught were a welcome relief, where I wasn't constantly demanding that everybody stop with the racial slurs and bullshit, and instead do their assigned work. They were the only ones who readily complied and didn't have to be disciplined.

For the record: I subbed for two teachers on numerous occasions over the course of a year. I got to know the classes, and knew most of the kids by name. Also, as per WCPSS policy, whenever the teacher I was subbing for had a free period, they rotated me into another absent teacher's class. These were almost always remedial, and invariably had teachers who did not provide lesson plans (either because they didn't know they were going to be absent or because they knew it wouldn't matter because their students were going to be shitheads either way). The point is, I did not have one filler assignment. I saw two sets of classes develop (or not) over the course of a year.

2/10/2011 11:07:23 PM

it sounds like the smart kids took advantage of you because they were smart enough to see that you were a pushover

2/11/2011 12:33:53 AM

Quote :

"guess what the parents of the disadvantaged kids can't afford"

Id be surprised if there is any study that followed these advantaged kids all the way through life AND looked at their children to determine just how pernicious their disadvantage is. My guess is we just assume because they didn't do well enough in high school to get into a 4 year school that they'll likely just repeat the poverty cycle but we probably don't know to what extent they do.

2/11/2011 7:25:00 AM

Poverty cycle? If they were such good students, then they graduated from highschool (none of this GED crap) and their employers will love them. As such, they will never taste poverty. In America, poverty requires regular unemployment to avoid advancement. How could such dutiful workers ever be unemployed?

2/11/2011 8:56:43 AM

Quote :

" The more I hear from social scientists, the more I get the idea that the emotional endowment of the privileged is far greater than those trust funds. "

exactly the point I was trying to make. I have no doubt that money, better educations, and even financial skills that they learn from their parents play a role in privileged kids being more successful, but there really is more to it than that. This is painting with a broad brush, because even some privileged kids end up not being successful, but there are a lot of environmental factors from when you are growing up that develop a person's mentality and psyche.

and while a lack of respect, sense of entitlement, and ability to get away with cheating aren't the only traits privileged kids might benefit from (there are others, I'm sure). Its easy to see that these could be advantages in a society whose foundation is competition.


and like moron, to a degree I think it's:

Quote :

"a sad commentary on our society... "

but the ends almost always justify the means in our society.







somewhat related and an interesting read some might enjoy: a study on the single-mindeness and self-confidence of American entrepeneurs

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/how-great-entrepreneurs-think.html

2/11/2011 10:27:03 AM

Quote :

"You probably realized this, but she lied to you. No teacher would let that happen, and you really didn’t handle it seriously enough, IMO."

Yep, I subbed for two years. Kids tried to tell me that stuff all the time, to which I usually reply "You better hope she gets back soon then"

2/11/2011 10:47:04 AM

Quote :

"I told them that I couldn't bear to watch another person copy her homework - that it was making me feel kind of dirty - and they'll have to do it in another class"

I'm pretty sure cheating warrants more than a "do it somewhere else, please." At the very least, you should have found out what class it was for and notified the teacher of that class.

It sounds to me like you were the problem, not the children.

2/11/2011 10:52:53 AM

What gets me is how people throw around the word "America" and hold onto a simplistic concept of what America is based on the lessons they learned from their parents and teachers in school. Sure, it is great to believe that we live in a nation where everything is possible and anyone can succeed, but it did not start that way and will likely never be that way.

I will come out and say that I do think IQ is genetically related, but I also believe that the classes you take in high school and what college you get into has a large socioeconomic component. There are disadvantaged and advantaged classes. Simply stating this fact doesn't mean that people from the advantaged are not capable of failure and people from the disadvantaged group are not capable of success, but that it increases the likelihood that they will fall into the other category.

Advantaged children have a lot of things, other than hard work, that pushes them into a comfortable environment. They have a sense of belonging that makes it easier for some teachers to identify them and grade them more positively and that continues all the way to job interviews for very professional positions. Its this thing called "fit" about which employers and recruiters speak so intensely. Children from lower ends of economic stability are less likely to exude this sense of fit and may meet hardship where others would have been more favorably graded, hired or promoted without any issue.

The issues goes further than fit. A lot of the issue is attitude and mentality, but not in the way it is often attributed. People who have attained more demonstrate to their children that success is possible, while those who have experienced generations of poverty have no examples by which to live. In poor communities, especially black ones, the people they she succeed are so much different than themselves that the poor can't possibly identify with how they can be like those who do succeed. They understand what many people from upper classes fail to understand, that those who succeed have something that they themselves do not. However, what they do fail to understand, that those from upper classes do, is that, in many ways, this can be overcome. The difference in understanding about what is possible and what is responsible is an outcome of experience from upbringing and is hard to push aside when all either class knows is what they have experienced.

2/11/2011 10:55:18 AM

Quote :

"what they do fail to understand, that those from upper classes do, is that, in many ways, this can be overcome."

Not true. The minimum wage is insurmountable for many Americans.

2/11/2011 11:08:14 AM

Hasn't it be shown that the minimum wage is relatively close to what the market would set the rate at anyway? Meaning, this argument that minimum wage is distorting the market and holding poor people down because employers can't afford to hire more of them is extremely tired?

2/11/2011 11:17:42 AM

Quote :

"Poverty cycle? If they were such good students, then they graduated from highschool (none of this GED crap) and their employers will love them. As such, they will never taste poverty. In America, poverty requires regular unemployment to avoid advancement. How could such dutiful workers ever be unemployed?"

What? You do realize that access to means of advancement (Higher education) is restricted in America largely to your parents income or how much you're willing to jeopardize your financial future by taking out massively unfair loans? It's really not as cut and dry as "Work hard and you'll do just as good as the rich kids!"



[Edited on February 11, 2011 at 12:12 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2011 12:11:21 PM

Does anyone have any data comparing economic mobility of impoverished legal immigrants over a few generations compared with impoverished non-immigrants?

2/11/2011 12:49:06 PM

^^ And you realize that higher education is little more than expensive signaling? The richest middle-aged people I know dropped out of college when they were offered a job doing what they wanted to do; ultimately becoming manager, then business partner, then business owner. The middle-aged people I know that finished college are still working for other people and earn less.

Higher education is only a means of advancement for the young who want to work at big employers. For older people, advancement comes through work, by building who you know and a stable work history.

^^^ Nope. You can argue it was, but then the minimum wage was increased 45%. Before it was increased, unemployment among the nations lowest wage classes (recent immigrants, teenagers, high-school dropouts, non-english speakers, and the handicap) was still far higher than any other class, but they were converging. After the increase, unemployment rates diverged again.

True, a recession happened around that time too, so it is hard to pull apart the numbers. But listen to what you are saying. If you are right that the minimum wage is doing nothing, then repealing it won't do anything, good or bad. If I am right, then eliminating the minimum wage will allow those most at risk for poverty to find work.

2/11/2011 1:18:59 PM

Quote :

"What? You do realize that access to means of advancement (Higher education) is restricted in America largely to your parents income or how much you're willing to jeopardize your financial future by taking out massively unfair loans? It's really not as cut and dry as "Work hard and you'll do just as good as the rich kids!""

This is not the core of the issue.

Poverty, for all intents and purposes, does not exist if:

1) You have no children outside of marriage.
2) You've never gone to jail.
3) You don't have attendance and attitude problems at work.

In life and employment, showing up and not screwing up (over a long period of time) is sufficient to get just about anybody out of poverty.

2/11/2011 1:38:20 PM

^ Does this apply to the housekeeping staff where you work?

2/11/2011 1:40:58 PM

It applies across the board.

Would you agree that, say, $12/hr is achievable (over time) for most people who show up, work reasonably well, and stay with an employer a while?

Two married full-time workers at $12/hr bring home nearly $50,000. That ain't poverty. It becomes poverty really quickly when one of those incomes is pulled away or doesn't exist, and there is a kid or two from a bad relationship decision.

2/11/2011 1:50:09 PM

anyone posting on the internet while at work is an overprivileged child.

2/11/2011 2:01:54 PM

Quote :

"It applies across the board. "

Does it apply to the low-wage people who you work with? Or do you not work with low-wage people?

Tell me a story of a person that you know who works (or probably works) full time at close to minimum wage.
- Are they in poverty?
- Did they screw something up big time?

2/11/2011 2:07:22 PM

Quote :

"Tell me a story of a person that you know who works (or probably works) full time at close to minimum wage. - Are they in poverty? - Did they screw something up big time?"

You may not want to go down this line of thought.

I currently work for $10.50/hr after having been laid off nearly 18 months ago. My wife is in a similar situation. We've had pretty bad luck.

On the bright side, I love my job now, and plan to stick with it. It's the first time in my life I don't groan when thinking about having to go to work.

We're able to save more than 1/4 of what we bring home, on top of 401K savings. We don't have smart phones, a car less than 10 years old, or fast internet at home, but we eat well and have some to play with. We're buying a townhouse this summer.

Do I count as someone I know?

_____________________________________

From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

Quote :

"By race/ethnicity and family status Among married families: 5.8% lived in poverty.[24] This number varied by ethnicity with 5.4% of white persons,[25] 8.3% of black persons,[26] and 14.9% of Hispanic persons (of any nationality) [27] living in poverty. Among single parent families: 26.6% lived in poverty.[24] This number varied by ethnicity with 30% of white persons,[25] 40% of black persons,[26] and 30% of Hispanic persons (of any nationality) [27] living in poverty."

Stable marriage is the biggest factor, by far.

That 5-14% poverty rate does not even control for the other restrictions I listed: not going to jail, not having children out of wedlock, and staying with an employer.

Add those in, and even that already low poverty rate drops like a rock.

[Edited on February 11, 2011 at 2:20 PM. Reason : a]

2/11/2011 2:18:57 PM

Quote :

"I currently work for $10.50/hr after having been laid off nearly 18 months ago. My wife is in a similar situation. We've had pretty bad luck."

Well yeah... you pretty much just made my point.

2/11/2011 2:21:57 PM

Yeah, except for the fact that we're not anywhere close to poor.

2/11/2011 2:25:37 PM

while you're not poor, your wealth certainly didn't come from similar $10.50/hr jobs.

2/11/2011 2:39:36 PM

asshole substitute? I think so

2/11/2011 2:43:17 PM

The fact remains, if you do the things I listed, poverty is exceedingly rare, and usually temporary.

I didn't need my college education to know to show up to work, not commit crimes, and not have kids outside of marriage. That is all that is required.

I needed my dad and my mom for that. They are lower middle class, at best, and we will probably be in the same boat.

And I'll go ahead and answer about my co-workers. Yes, they are poor. And they have all either had more than one marriage, had kids out of wedlock, been to jail, or never spent more than a year or two at any given employer.

Every single one of them.

Those poverty statistics prove my point better than any anecdote. 8% of black married couples are poor. 8%. Count out those who have been in prison, bounced from job to job, and had kids outside of marriage, and poverty would barely register.

[Edited on February 11, 2011 at 2:51 PM. Reason : a]

2/11/2011 2:46:00 PM

TULI your own personal experience proves only that the trappings of poverty aren't airtight, it does not prove that those trappings don't exist. Did you or any of your family members ever suffer a medical emergency and not have insurance to cover it? Have you had to support members of your extended family while getting on your feet or going through college? Did you have a safety net in place during your 18 months of unemployment? That is, did you have a place to live, food to eat, and people to support you?

I don't doubt that it's possible to escape poverty with hard work in many cases, but poverty isn't as simple as "having little money", there are a lot of confounding effects like those I mentioned above, the fact that you could go to college at all proves that your family wasn't near poverty, or else you'd likely have been compelled to find work instead to help support the household.


[Edited on February 11, 2011 at 2:54 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2011 2:52:06 PM

I don't care if you're married or not, having kids will make you poor if you're both on minimum wage.

2/11/2011 2:52:07 PM