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Cabbage
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Quote :
"When the democrats had all of the power they weren't able to deliver much. "


Hey, look! It's yet another unsupported claim, just like the other claims about Republicans being able to deliver! LMFAO!

I'm still wondering when you're going to show me Republicans actually delivering on the debt/deficit.

Quote :
"The claim that republicans invented the idea of taking guns as fear-mongering."


No, the claim was that Republicans are misleading/being dishonest about that idea.....Which they are.

Quote :
"The claim that republicans didn't try to repeal ACA"


No, the claim was that Republicans consistently deliver.....Which they didn't.

12/12/2020 6:54:13 PM

Cabbage
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Still waiting for a response to this question:

Quote :
"The question is: Why are you so cocksure you have the causal relationship (assuming there is one) pointed in the right direction? A more natural causal relationship would be that Republicans consistently deliver for their base because they have a stronger representation in Congress, not the other way around."

12/12/2020 6:55:33 PM

Cabbage
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And while I'm pointing out just how fucking ignorant you are, let's not forget this little gem of stupidity:

Quote :
"This means "christmas time" is being renamed to things like "xmas""


LMFAO!!

I notice you also dropped the War on Christmas like a hot potato after that: As I said, that's another example of Republicans lying to their base (out of MANY).

12/13/2020 6:27:11 PM

rwoody
Save TWW
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Hey maybe bask in his absence instead of begging him to return

12/13/2020 7:01:39 PM

dmspack
oh we back
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^ yes

12/13/2020 7:08:42 PM

synapse
play so hard
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^^ yup dont feed the trolls

Shit is fundamental

12/13/2020 11:08:21 PM

horosho
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Legend has it if you mention me three times, I will appear
Quote :
"I'm still wondering when you're going to show me Republicans actually delivering on the debt/deficit.
"

I'm not showing you because I never accepted that was something republicans wanted. They always wanted lower taxes and high military spending. 'Read their lips'

Quote :
"No, the claim was that Republicans consistently deliver.....Which they didn't."

"Consistently" vs "always"

Quote :
"LMFAO!!

I notice you also dropped the War on Christmas like a hot potato after that: As I said, that's another example of Republicans lying to their base (out of MANY)."

I don't understand what you are arguing here? Are you trying to claim that theres no conscious effort to remove Christmas from being the default holiday of the winter season?

12/13/2020 11:16:36 PM

aaronburro
Sup, B
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Will he fall for the troll trap?

12/13/2020 11:26:44 PM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"I'm not showing you because I never accepted that was something republicans wanted."


Well, you're wrong:

Quote :
"The January Fiscal Confidence Index: 85% of voters say the president and Congress should spend more time focused on addressing the debt. Three in four voters (78%) want it to be a top-three priority for the president and Congress, including 75% of Democrats, 79% of independents and 82% of Republicans."


https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2019/12/do-voters-care-about-the-national-debt-the-polls-say-they-do

So you're 0 for 2 here: 1) You fail to realize it's important to Republicans, and 2) You can't back your claim up.

Quote :
""Consistently" vs "always""


The funny thing is, you've supported neither position.

Quote :
"I don't understand what you are arguing here? Are you trying to claim that theres no conscious effort to remove Christmas from being the default holiday of the winter season?"


Jesus Christ, is your memory that short?? I'm pointing out how Republicans lie to their base (about things like the "War on Xmas")....something you evidently contend does not happen. Like in this ad, where the girl at the end says, "Thank you President Trump for letting us say Merry Christmas again".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv8r0h4tNaU&feature=emb_logo

It's a bullshit lie; that's what I'm arguing.

What are you arguing??? Are you arguing that since some corporations use "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" that any way Republicans choose to spin the "War on Xmas" narrative they are simply being honest about it?? Because that would be fucking retarded.

12/14/2020 1:36:23 AM

synapse
play so hard
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^^ ofc

12/14/2020 1:41:06 AM

Cabbage
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Oh yeah, I almost forgot:

I was also pointing out how ignorant it was of you to think that the "X" in "Xmas" was actually part of some "War on Xmas".

Try reading a history book, dumbass.

12/14/2020 1:48:40 AM

horosho
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Quote :
"So you're 0 for 2 here: 1) You fail to realize it's important to Republicans, and 2) You can't back your claim up."

Sure, in isolation, everyone wants to reduce the debt but the issue is that no one wants to make the sacrifices necessary to actually reduce it. The polling you looked at didn't include that. Show me polling support for decreasing the military budget or increasing taxes. Or any actual mechanism for reducing the debt.
Quote :
"What are you arguing??? Are you arguing that since some corporations use "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" that any way Republicans choose to spin the "War on Xmas" narrative they are simply being honest about it?? Because that would be fucking retarded."

That is all part of a concerted effort to secularize the holiday season for the purpose of inclusion and multiculuralism. (I know because I'm part of that concerted effort). Multiculturism always comes at the expense of the prevailing culture no longer being featured as the default throughout society. In liberal terms, Christian Privilege is being eroded. A lot of of christians feel like this nation was built on their values and they see multiculturalism as an attack on their culture being the default. What they perceive is actually happening (and its accelerating) even if they are wrong to call it "war on christmas".
Quote :
"Oh yeah, I almost forgot:

I was also pointing out how ignorant it was of you to think that the "X" in "Xmas" was actually part of some "War on Xmas".

Try reading a history book, dumbass.

"

The historical, linguistic origin of "xmas" isn't really relevant to how christians in america feel about it today. They feel like the X is to avoid saying Christ and the GOP is in touch with that. It isn't dishonest either because it does actually coincide with the dechristianization of mainstream America.

Your last sentence is also indicative of an attitude they feel oppressed by. Cultural traditions being changed and pushed on them by coastal academics who read books but do not read people.

[Edited on December 14, 2020 at 6:43 PM. Reason : k]

12/14/2020 6:37:44 PM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"Sure, in isolation, everyone wants to reduce the debt but the issue is that no one wants to make the sacrifices necessary to actually reduce it."


But regardless of what the issue may be, the actual point (which you have evidently forgotten again) is that it's a lie they tell their base and that they fail to deliver on.

Quote :
"The polling you looked at didn't include that."


Because that is irrelevant to the point I am making (described above).

Quote :
"That is all part of a concerted effort to secularize the holiday season for the purpose of inclusion and multiculuralism. (I know because I'm part of that concerted effort). Multiculturism always comes at the expense of the prevailing culture no longer being featured as the default throughout society. In liberal terms, Christian Privilege is being eroded. A lot of of christians feel like this nation was built on their values and they see multiculturalism as an attack on their culture being the default. What they perceive is actually happening (and its accelerating) even if they are wrong to call it "war on christmas"."


Again, that's precisely the point--They spin and lie to their base about these issues, contrary to your bullshit claim "they are honest to their base".

Quote :
"The historical, linguistic origin of "xmas" isn't really relevant to how christians in america feel about it today."


But it's relevant in pointing out your ignorance of its origin.

Quote :
"They feel like the X is to avoid saying Christ and the GOP is in touch with that."


Sure, because they've been lied to about it (again, that's the point).

Quote :
"It isn't dishonest either because it does actually coincide with the dechristianization of mainstream America."


Establishing connections between mere coincidences absolutely is dishonesty, dumbass.

Quote :
"Your last sentence is also indicative of an attitude they feel oppressed by. Cultural traditions being changed and pushed on them by coastal academics who read books but do not read people. "


Your last two sentences are good examples of the condescending approach that makes you an asshole.

12/14/2020 9:22:48 PM

horosho
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Quote :
"But regardless of what the issue may be, the actual point (which you have evidently forgotten again) is that it's a lie they tell their base and that they fail to deliver on."

What would delivering on that look like to you? Of course it wouldn't include blocking spending that their base views essential. How do you cut into the debt without cutting medicare or medicaid while also cutting taxes and increasing military spending?

The only reasonable answer to that I can think of is to do everything possible to block any new democratic spending and thats exactly what Mitch and co have done.

Quote :
"Again, that's precisely the point--They spin and lie to their base about these issues, contrary to your bullshit claim "they are honest to their base"."

So you're saying that the war on christmas was invented in DC and thats why the base believes it? Interesting conspiracy theory but I think its the other way around. I think the base invented the war on christmas and the GOP adopted it to capture their support. Obviously, radio and network like FOX have amplified so at best, you could argue that the media has pushed the lie but once the people believe something, the GOP can either join in or have the base turn on them.

Quote :
"But it's relevant in pointing out your ignorance of its origin."

Once again I am asking you to stop interpreting views I am explaining as my own. Its causing you to miss the whole point because I don't give a damn about this stuff and disagree with the whole GOP platform. I don't even celebrate Christmas but to the people who are angry about the "war on christmas", xmas is definitely something being done to minimize the christ in christmas. This is not something I came up with. The way it was used several hundred years ago has absolutely no relevance in this discussion.

You have to see the difference between "a lie" and "something you disagree with" or even "something you know is false that is believed by another group". Not everyone has the same perspective. Republicans often "speak their truth" and are "wrong as hell" at the same time.

Quote :
"Establishing connections between mere coincidences absolutely is dishonesty, dumbass."

The way it was used long ago has no connection to the reason it started being used more in 21st century USA. You are the one establishing a connection between coincidences.

[Edited on December 15, 2020 at 1:26 AM. Reason : k]

12/15/2020 1:24:49 AM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"What would delivering on that look like to you?"


How it would look to me is completely irrelevant to the fact that the GOP is dishonest about it. Why do you ask?

Quote :
"The only reasonable answer to that I can think of is to do everything possible to block any new democratic spending and thats exactly what Mitch and co have done."


...While the deficit grows and grows, despite the GOP campaigning on doing something about it.

Quote :
"So you're saying that the war on christmas was invented in DC and thats why the base believes it?"


I'm saying the GOP gaslights their base regarding the war on Christmas; are you oblivious to this? Gaslighting is mutually exclusive with being honest with their base.

Quote :
"I think the base invented the war on christmas and the GOP adopted it to capture their support."


That seems accurate to me--The GOP adopted it and proceeded to gaslight them about it, exactly like I've been saying. It's pretty simple to see, really (if you bother to look).

Quote :
"Obviously, radio and network like FOX have amplified so at best, you could argue that the media has pushed the lie but once the people believe something, the GOP can either join in or have the base turn on them."


You're coming around to my POV, I see. Yes, the GOP join in and proceed to tell them what they want to hear, spinning and gaslighting their base along the way. I'm baffled that you seem to think what you're saying supports your position when it actually proves my own point--The GOP are not honest with their base.

Quote :
"Once again I am asking you to stop interpreting views I am explaining as my own."


Then stop expressing them as your own, dumbass. You said:

Quote :
"Nah. "War on Christmas" is a real grievance held by their constituents. There is no lie about it. There has been a conscious effort in corporate america and MSM to remove christianity from being the default way we approach the holidays. This means "christmas time" is being renamed to things like "xmas"(ironically what you used in your post), "holidays", "winter season" and anything that makes sure christianity is no longer the default."


That paragraph is presented as your own point of view; I merely pointed out where you are factually wrong. Get the fuck over it.

Quote :
" Its causing you to miss the whole point because I don't give a damn about this stuff and disagree with the whole GOP platform. I don't even celebrate Christmas but to the people who are angry about the "war on christmas", xmas is definitely something being done to minimize the christ in christmas. This is not something I came up with. The way it was used several hundred years ago has absolutely no relevance in this discussion. "


I'm not missing anything at all; you are. Look, is it your contention that everything the GOP claims and campaigns on with respect to the War on Xmas is honest and true? No? Then congratulations! You finally see my point! The GOP is being dishonest to their base. (On the other hand, if your answer to the question was "Yes", then you are simply in error. Again.)

Quote :
"You have to see the difference between "a lie" and "something you disagree with" or even "something you know is false that is believed by another group". Not everyone has the same perspective. Republicans often "speak their truth" and are "wrong as hell" at the same time."


Oh great, more assholish condescension. Regarding the last sentence, they are also "dishonest" to their base much of the time, too; you're willfully blind if you do not see that.

Quote :
"The way it was used long ago has no connection to the reason it started being used more in 21st century USA. You are the one establishing a connection between coincidences. "


Bullshit. It's been used frequently all of my life. It's funny, I keep patiently explaining to you the mistake you are making and, like a dumbass, you just keep posting the same mistake over and over again. "Xmas" has no connection whatsoever to the "War on Christmas". It didn't in the 17th century. Nor the 18th, 19th, 20th, nor 21st.

Like I said, read a fucking book already, asshole.

12/15/2020 1:55:27 AM

horosho
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Quote :
"How it would look to me is completely irrelevant to the fact that the GOP is dishonest about it. Why do you ask?"

You say they are dishonest so I'm trying to figure out what it would look like if they were honest.
Quote :
"...While the deficit grows and grows, despite the GOP campaigning on doing something about it. "

They have made it grow more slowly than it would if progressive policies passed.

Quote :
"I'm saying the GOP gaslights their base regarding the war on Christmas; are you oblivious to this? Gaslighting is mutually exclusive with being honest with their base."

You have gaslighting wrong because you're explaining it from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe there is a war on christmas. Yes if you were their base, they'd be gaslighting their base but their base feels the war is real. Gaslighting from their perspective would be for the GOP to say something like this:

"I know you all think there is a war on christmas but there just isn't any war on christmas. The thing you are worried about doesn't even exist"

Quote :
"You're coming around to my POV, I see. Yes, the GOP join in and proceed to tell them what they want to hear, spinning and gaslighting their base along the way. I'm baffled that you seem to think what you're saying supports your position when it actually proves my own point--The GOP are not honest with their base."

They don't tell their base what to think no. That was never what I meant. I always meant honest in the context of elections, platforms, and what they do when they get in office.

Quote :
"I'm not missing anything at all; you are. Look, is it your contention that everything the GOP claims and campaigns on with respect to the War on Xmas is honest and true? No? Then congratulations! You finally see my point! The GOP is being dishonest to their base. (On the other hand, if your answer to the question was "Yes", then you are simply in error. Again.)"

The answer is no but its not so cut and dry simple as you want to make it. Theres a lot of exaggeration for the sake of marketing and advertising. You can't simply explain something so complex in a 30 second ad so its better to just get the main point across even if its an exaggeration. You act like they say one thing and do the opposite.
Quote :
"Bullshit. It's been used frequently all of my life. It's funny, I keep patiently explaining to you the mistake you are making and, like a dumbass, you just keep posting the same mistake over and over again. "Xmas" has no connection whatsoever to the "War on Christmas". It didn't in the 17th century. Nor the 18th, 19th, 20th, nor 21st.

Like I said, read a fucking book already, asshole."


You are typing x not chi. This is not greece or rome nor do most of the offended know what you are referencing. Me reading a book is not going to change that. I am not the one who is offended. There are a lot of things that have non-offensive origins and then became offensive when used centuries later in a different culture. Maybe you should get out of history books sometimes and learn a little about what people are feeling right now.

12/15/2020 1:47:55 PM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"You say they are dishonest so I'm trying to figure out what it would look like if they were honest."


Well, if they were honest, they would deliver on their campaign promises to do something about the debt/deficit. Simple if you bother to think about it, really.

Quote :
"They have made it grow more slowly than it would if progressive policies passed. "


...while passing conservative policies that make it grow faster. It's a lie they campaign on to get into office and then proceed to do absolutely nothing about.

Quote :
"You have gaslighting wrong because you're explaining it from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe there is a war on christmas. Yes if you were their base, they'd be gaslighting their base but their base feels the war is real. Gaslighting from their perspective would be for the GOP to say something like this:

"I know you all think there is a war on christmas but there just isn't any war on christmas. The thing you are worried about doesn't even exist""


Get the fuck outta here with that gaslighting bullshit. It's not about what someone "feels". If someone "feels" that radio waves are controlling their thoughts and I start selling them tin foil hats, tell them the frequency they use is 107.9 MHz and they need to buy my radios, tune them to that frequency (to draw the waves away from their brain and into the radio instead), then I am gaslighting that person.

According to you, on the other hand, telling them the simple truth would be gaslighting them, simply because it conflicts with their "feels".

That's probably the most fucking moronic thing I've seen you say yet.



Quote :
"They don't tell their base what to think no."


No, they simply prey on the delusions they are already prone to: Gaslighting.

Quote :
"I always meant honest in the context of elections, platforms, and what they do when they get in office. "


Like promising to reduce the debt? Yeah, I've already called bullshit on that multiple times, and yet you still persist in your ignorance....

Quote :
"The answer is no but its not so cut and dry simple as you want to make it. Theres a lot of exaggeration for the sake of marketing and advertising. "


Exaggeration....i.e, dishonesty. QED.

Quote :
" You act like they say one thing and do the opposite."


Like promising to reduce the deficit and then, when in office, making it skyrocket? Like calling for unity and then, when in office, fomenting division.

Yeah, where did I ever get that idea from??

Quote :
"You are typing x not chi."


It's the same damn symbol, you fucking moron. Which letter do you think Irishman Bernard Ward was using in 1755 in History of St. Edmund's college, Old Hall

Quote :
" This is not greece or rome nor do most of the offended know what you are referencing."


Of course they don't, due to the fact they've been gaslighted with lies.

Quote :
"Me reading a book is not going to change that."


I was referencing your own ignorance with that advice, not theirs. You are the one who evidenced his ignorance on the origin of Xmas in this thread, not them.

Quote :
"I am not the one who is offended."


I never claimed you were offended, merely that you are ignorant.

Quote :
"There are a lot of things that have non-offensive origins and then became offensive when used centuries later in a different culture. Maybe you should get out of history books sometimes and learn a little about what people are feeling right now."


There's been continuous usage of Xmas all of my life. People have a right to be offended by whatever they want, that doesn't change the reality of the origin of the phrase, and the fact that you are ignorant when you claim:

Quote :
"This means "christmas time" is being renamed to things like "xmas"(ironically what you used in your post)"


As usual, you are confusing what I say with what I don't say.

12/15/2020 5:36:46 PM

Cabbage
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I've got a better example than the radio waves one:

According to horosho, telling a Holocaust denier that the Holocaust actually happened would be gaslighting them.

Look, if that's the best bullshit you can come with, don't bother coming at all, you fucking moron.

12/15/2020 5:39:39 PM

horosho
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Quote :
"...while passing conservative policies that make it grow faster. It's a lie they campaign on to get into office and then proceed to do absolutely nothing about"

Its not as simple as you make it. Their base want conservative policies and less debt. They don't want less debt at the expense of higher taxes. If I tell the mechanic I want my car to stop making that noise, he's not going to remove the engine because even though a car that can't start would not make noise, he knows I still want the car to start.

Quote :
"
Quote :
"You say they are dishonest so I'm trying to figure out what it would look like if they were honest."


Well, if they were honest, they would deliver on their campaign promises to do something about the debt/deficit. Simple if you bother to think about it, really.

Quote :
"They have made it grow more slowly than it would if progressive policies passed. "


...while passing conservative policies that make it grow faster. It's a lie they campaign on to get into office and then proceed to do absolutely nothing about.

Quote :
"You have gaslighting wrong because you're explaining it from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe there is a war on christmas. Yes if you were their base, they'd be gaslighting their base but their base feels the war is real. Gaslighting from their perspective would be for the GOP to say something like this:

"I know you all think there is a war on christmas but there just isn't any war on christmas. The thing you are worried about doesn't even exist""


Get the fuck outta here with that gaslighting bullshit. It's not about what someone "feels". If someone "feels" that radio waves are controlling their thoughts and I start selling them tin foil hats, tell them the frequency they use is 107.9 MHz and they need to buy my radios, tune them to that frequency (to draw the waves away from their brain and into the radio instead), then I am gaslighting that person.

According to you, on the other hand, telling them the simple truth would be gaslighting them, simply because it conflicts with their "feels".

That's probably the most fucking moronic thing I've seen you say yet."

The problem is that truth cannot always be established as the things you "know" to be true. This means different people have different truths and will feel gaslighted if you try to tell them something they "know" is true is actually a lie.
Quote :
"No, they simply prey on the delusions they are already prone to: Gaslighting."

They aren't hired to be teachers or consultants. They are hired to go to DC representing the views of the people who voted for them and thats what they do. Representatives aren't supposed to say "no the people are wrong so we are going to do what we think is right"
Quote :
"Like promising to reduce the debt? Yeah, I've already called bullshit on that multiple times, and yet you still persist in your ignorance...."

The debt is lower than it would be if they didn't aggressively resist so much of the democrat agenda. They do such a good job at it that they have scared the democrats into not even allowing proposals that can't be paid for.
Quote :
"I was referencing your own ignorance with that advice, not theirs. You are the one who evidenced his ignorance on the origin of Xmas in this thread, not them."

So anyone who thinks KKK robes and swatstikas are racist should simply read a history book to cure their ignorance too?

Quote :
"There's been continuous usage of Xmas all of my life. People have a right to be offended by whatever they want, that doesn't change the reality of the origin of the phrase, and the fact that you are ignorant when you claim:"

Thats your truth and your experience from your perspective. Obviously, the people who are offended by xmas, feel differently and have a different experience. Maybe you should read something by someone who finds xmas offensive.
Quote :
"I've got a better example than the radio waves one:

According to horosho, telling a Holocaust denier that the Holocaust actually happened would be gaslighting them.

Look, if that's the best bullshit you can come with, don't bother coming at all, you fucking moron."

You are saying that from the perspective of knowing that the holocaust happened but if someone told you the opposite of what you "know", you would feel gaslighted. If I told you the holocaust didn't happen, I'd be gaslighting you because you know it happened.

Well the correct "truth" is much more difficult to identify in politics than it is in historical events.
Quote :
"Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse that's seen in abusive relationships. It's the act of manipulating a person by forcing them to question their thoughts, memories, and the events occurring around them. A victim of gaslighting can be pushed so far that they question their own sanity."

So if someone thinks the war on Christmas is occurring based on what they see happening in this country, you are gaslighting them by saying none of what they think they're experiencing is real.

The GOP gaslights democrats. They don't gaslight their own base.

[Edited on December 15, 2020 at 9:28 PM. Reason : Democrats gaslight the left. ]

12/15/2020 9:25:45 PM

StTexan
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I feel like forrest gump when he said sorry to have a fight in the middle of the black panther party

But perhaps others want to read wall of words. Fucking gay i think, personally.

12/15/2020 9:29:29 PM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"Its not as simple as you make it. Their base want conservative policies and less debt. They don't want less debt at the expense of higher taxes. If I tell the mechanic I want my car to stop making that noise, he's not going to remove the engine because even though a car that can't start would not make noise, he knows I still want the car to start."


You're the one who oversimplified when you said Republicans are honest to their base; I'm simply pointing out where you're wrong. Are you acknowledging a retraction now?

Quote :
"The problem is that truth cannot always be established as the things you "know" to be true. This means different people have different truths and will feel gaslighted if you try to tell them something they "know" is true is actually a lie. "


I don't give a shit if they "feel" gaslighted. I'm sure a lot of people in cults (like $cientology, for example) "feel" gaslighted when someone attacks $cientology. It doesn't change reality, and the reality is that Republican politicians are gaslighting their base regarding a War on Xmas (among other things) for political advantage. QED.

Quote :
"They aren't hired to be teachers or consultants. They are hired to go to DC representing the views of the people who voted for them and thats what they do. Representatives aren't supposed to say "no the people are wrong so we are going to do what we think is right""


If they pander to their base by lying and telling them what they want to hear, then they are not being honest with their base, now are they? That's the point, which you continue to struggle to stay focused on.

Quote :
"The debt is lower than it would be if they didn't aggressively resist so much of the democrat agenda. They do such a good job at it that they have scared the democrats into not even allowing proposals that can't be paid for."


...and yet the deficit rises every time a Republican is in office, despite the promises they make to the base. Excuses are irrelevant: They are not delivering their promises to their base, period. QED.

Quote :
"So anyone who thinks KKK robes and swatstikas are racist should simply read a history book to cure their ignorance too?"


Can you find me a culture of using "Xmas" specifically to exclude Christ from Christmas? Not a sporadic individual here or there. Not someone lying about the origin of Xmas. An actual bona fide agenda to use "Xmas" specifically exclude Christ from Christmas.

No, I don't think you can, and therefore that's a shit analogy.

Quote :
"Obviously, the people who are offended by xmas, feel differently and have a different experience."


Probably because many of them have been gaslit about it. And I've already said people have a right to be offended by whatever they choose. That does not change the reality of the origin of the use of "Xmas".

Quote :
"Maybe you should read something by someone who finds xmas offensive. "


That wouldn't change the reality of how it is actually used, either.

Quote :
"You are saying that from the perspective of knowing that the holocaust happened but if someone told you the opposite of what you "know", you would feel gaslighted. If I told you the holocaust didn't happen, I'd be gaslighting you because you know it happened. "


That's a bullshit gaslighting definition of gaslighting. You keep talking about this "feels" bullshit. Just because someone "feels" gaslit, that doesn't mean they've been gaslit, you fucking moron. Having an erroneous belief challenged by Truth/Reality is not gaslighting.

Quote :
"Well the correct "truth" is much more difficult to identify in politics than it is in historical events. "


Sure, thanks to gaslighting assholes like you.

Quote :
"So if someone thinks the war on Christmas is occurring based on what they see happening in this country, you are gaslighting them by saying none of what they think they're experiencing is real."


Incorrect. Read the definition again. I'm not doing it to "manipulate" them. I'm simply telling them the truth.

Quote :
"The GOP gaslights democrats. They don't gaslight their own base. "


Incorrect. As I have patiently demonstrated despite your willful blindness.

12/15/2020 10:20:07 PM

horosho
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Quote :
"You're the one who oversimplified when you said Republicans are honest to their base; I'm simply pointing out where you're wrong. Are you acknowledging a retraction now?"

No you're looking at conflicting promises and ignoring priorities. Its not like the GOP promised to cut the debt no matter what then snuck tax cuts and military spending in. Republicans prioritize tax cuts. They want tax cuts so much that the debt makes them worry taxes may have to rise in the future. They absolutely don't want the GOP to raise taxes in the name of cutting the debt. What they want is for their priorities to be honored first and the debt to be reduced within those constraints and that looks like low taxes, a bloated military budget, border security and blocking additional funding to pretty much everything else. Whoops thats exactly what we have.

Quote :
"If they pander to their base by lying and telling them what they want to hear, then they are not being honest with their base, now are they? That's the point, which you continue to struggle to stay focused on."

Yes because they then turn around and go to work implementing the vision their base has for the country. The contradictions you see in policy are literally contradictions in the base's belief system.

Quote :
"Excuses are irrelevant: They are not delivering their promises to their base, period. QED."

Are taxes up? Is the military spending cut? Do we have M4A? GND? Is college education free? Is there UBI ? Student loan forgiveness? HSR? Are abortion rights being expanded? Gun rights infringed upon?

Quote :
"Probably because many of them have been gaslit about it. And I've already said people have a right to be offended by whatever they choose. That does not change the reality of the origin of the use of "Xmas"."

They aren't mad about the origin of its use. They are mad that its being used now while simultaneously Christmas is being removed from being the default holiday. Keep your eyes on the prize.

Quote :
"That's a bullshit gaslighting definition of gaslighting. You keep talking about this "feels" bullshit. Just because someone "feels" gaslit, that doesn't mean they've been gaslit, you fucking moron. Having an erroneous belief challenged by Truth/Reality is not gaslighting."

There are plenty of beliefs no one knows the "true" answer to. You just have your opinions and see them as truth and have a hard time stepping back to consider the opposing opinion is also true to the people who hold it.
Quote :
"Incorrect. Read the definition again. I'm not doing it to "manipulate" them. I'm simply telling them the truth."

Trying to get someone to believe what you believe about something is manipulation.

[Edited on December 16, 2020 at 12:10 AM. Reason : GOP taking guns would be dishonest]

12/16/2020 12:08:03 AM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"No you're looking at conflicting promises and ignoring priorities."


Irrelevant. Indeed, conflicting promises alone are sufficient to demonstrate your premise that Republicans are honest to their base is false.

Quote :
"Yes because they then turn around and go to work implementing the vision their base has for the country. The contradictions you see in policy are literally contradictions in the base's belief system."


Given that your last sentence is true (simply for the sake of argument), then they are being dishonest to their base simply by promising to deliver a logical contradiction.

I struggle to understand why this is difficult for you to comprehend.

Quote :
"Are taxes up? Is the military spending cut? Do we have M4A? GND? Is college education free? Is there UBI ? Student loan forgiveness? HSR? Are abortion rights being expanded? Gun rights infringed upon?"


....all the while ignoring all the issues (such as the debt/deficit) they fail to deliver on? All you've demonstrated is an ability to pick cherries.

Quote :
"They aren't mad about the origin of its use. They are mad that its being used now while simultaneously Christmas is being removed from being the default holiday. Keep your eyes on the prize. "


...Because they've been lied to and told there's connection between the two when there's not. My focus has never left the subject, despite your pathetic attempts to spin me away from it.

Quote :
"There are plenty of beliefs no one knows the "true" answer to."


Sure.

This is not one of them.

Quote :
"You just have your opinions and see them as truth and have a hard time stepping back to consider the opposing opinion is also true to the people who hold it."


I question whether you even understand what I am saying. You keep bringing up other, irrelevant subjects and that makes me pause with wonder.

Quote :
"Trying to get someone to believe what you believe about something is manipulation."


Trying to get someone understand the truth, however, is not.

12/16/2020 1:14:50 AM

horosho
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Quote :
"Given that your last sentence is true (simply for the sake of argument), then they are being dishonest to their base simply by promising to deliver a logical contradiction.

I struggle to understand why this is difficult for you to comprehend."


They are on the same page as the people. They care about reducing the deficit *except for when it comes to the spending they want*. Its a logical logical contradiction. Example: I like to save money but I also like to travel so I spend a lot of money on travel but am cheap as hell when it comes to clothing and furniture. You can't point to my spending on travel and say I don't care about saving. I just don't care ENOUGH about saving to prioritize it over travel. That doesn't make me dishonest with myself when I say I'm wearing the same clothes every week because I really want to save money.

Quote :
"....all the while ignoring all the issues (such as the debt/deficit) they fail to deliver on? All you've demonstrated is an ability to pick cherries."

Blocking all those high pricetag proposals I listed is an example of them delivering on the debt/deficit. It would be much bigger if those went through.

Quote :
"Trying to get someone understand the truth, however, is not."

So is it not true that there is a conscious effort being made to avoid saying Christmas? Specifically by corporate America and many high level politicians? Have you seen school calendars?


[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 4:47 AM. Reason : k]

12/17/2020 4:42:40 AM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"They are on the same page as the people."


That's irrelevant to whether or not they are lying to their base. If someone tells me they think crows have the ability to control his body and mind and I say, "Yup, you're right!", then 1) We are on the same page, and 2) I am being dishonest with him.

You seem unable to keep track of the position you originally made; it keeps morphing into variations.

Quote :
"They care about reducing the deficit *except for when it comes to the spending they want*. Its a logical logical contradiction. Example: I like to save money but I also like to travel so I spend a lot of money on travel but am cheap as hell when it comes to clothing and furniture. You can't point to my spending on travel and say I don't care about saving. I just don't care ENOUGH about saving to prioritize it over travel. That doesn't make me dishonest with myself when I say I'm wearing the same clothes every week because I really want to save money."


Oh, so you're saying there are reasons for the dishonesty?

LOL

It's still dishonesty when they promise to do something to reduce the deficit and then end up increasing the deficit.

Quote :
"Blocking all those high pricetag proposals I listed is an example of them delivering on the debt/deficit. It would be much bigger if those went through."


Irrelevant to the fact that they promise to reduce the deficit and it winds up increasing.

Quote :
"So is it not true that there is a conscious effort being made to avoid saying Christmas? Specifically by corporate America and many high level politicians? Have you seen school calendars?"


I am saying the way GOP politicians present the War on Xmas is a lie.

For example, the lie you told about there being a connection between "Xmas" and the War on Xmas.

12/17/2020 6:11:16 AM

rwoody
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I don't know why I even post here since it will likely just be drowned out by the shit throwing contest but

Fucking Manchin rt'ed the national debt today. trash.

12/17/2020 12:19:30 PM

horosho
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Quote :
"That's irrelevant to whether or not they are lying to their base. If someone tells me they think crows have the ability to control his body and mind and I say, "Yup, you're right!", then 1) We are on the same page, and 2) I am being dishonest with him.

You seem unable to keep track of the position you originally made; it keeps morphing into variations."

I see now its all just a misunderstanding. We are talking about two different things. I don't consider it to be dishonest if you both actually believe crows have the ability to control body and mind...regardless of what is actually true.

I think you actually have warped the definition of what honesty and lies are and that is the root cause of our disagreement. I remember you called me a liar many times for saying things you thought were incorrect. AFAIK, you have to knowingly tell something that isn't true in order for it to be dishonest.

Another source of our disagreement is that you think your beliefs are "truth". I don't think you're being dishonest about this but that you actually believe the things you "know" are "truths", everyone else knows they are truths also (or just haven't read books), and the people who disagree with you are simply "lying" or arguing in "bad faith". This explains everything about our interactions and why you get so angry.

1. Telling someone something that is "incorrect" is not a lie unless there was intent to be incorrect
2. Some of the things you think are incorrect are incorrect but some are actually just opinions you disagree with.

[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 3:41 PM. Reason : I'm not retracting anything. Just explaining how you weren't on the same page as me with my comment]

12/17/2020 3:37:38 PM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"I see now its all just a misunderstanding. We are talking about two different things. I don't consider it to be dishonest if you both actually believe crows have the ability to control body and mind...regardless of what is actually true.

I think you actually have warped the definition of what honesty and lies are and that is the root cause of our disagreement. I remember you called me a liar many times for saying things you thought were incorrect. AFAIK, you have to knowingly tell something that isn't true in order for it to be dishonest."


No, it's not a misunderstanding. I'm using the same definition you are using (and I called you a liar because you established a pattern of twisting my words and making assumptions about me to BS your way through your side of the debate. It's cool, I understand it was the only avenue left to you, but it's still lying).

For example, here's a quote from Rush Limbaugh: "All this talk about concern for the deficit and the budget has been bogus for as long as it's been around."

Meanwhile, the base believes wholeheartedly in that shit.

You, on the other hand, can't seem to make up your mind if your position is that they are honest with their base, or if they deliver to their base. I agree in general that if a politician makes a promise they don't keep, that doesn't make them a liar (though in some cases they certainly are); there may be external forces that prohibit their promise keeping. But let me remind you, you're the one who keeps changing their position from "Honesty" to "Delivery" and back; I'm merely pointing out you are wrong on all counts.

Quote :
"Another source of our disagreement is that you think your beliefs are "truth". I don't think you're being dishonest about this but that you actually believe the things you "know" are "truths", everyone else knows they are truths also (or just haven't read books), and the people who disagree with you are simply "lying" or arguing in "bad faith". This explains everything about our interactions and why you get so angry.

1. Telling someone something that is "incorrect" is not a lie unless there was intent to be incorrect
2. Some of the things you think are incorrect are incorrect but some are actually just opinions you disagree with."


Nope. I'm well aware that some of my beliefs are merely beliefs, but I'm also well aware that some of my beliefs are absolutely true. It's absolutely true that the origin of Xmas is much older and independent of any alleged "War on Xmas". That's not an opinion/belief, that's a fact.

When you claimed otherwise--No, I don't think you were actually lying then. You were merely ignorant. On the other hand, when Trump claims he's going to bring back "Merry Christmas" when the fact is it never left, I consider that a lie. And before you give me that bullshit about how it depends on what he actually believes, let me elaborate:

In many cases I would agree--It's not a lie if you simply believe it. However, a character like Trump has such a casual disregard for the truth that he frequently makes conflicting statements in the same speech/paragraph/sentence that is indistinguishable from real, by the dictionary lying. Like you, he/you has established such a pattern of bullshit that he's earned the label of "Liar" regardless of whether he/you believes in his own bullshit.

He/you may not be a "Liar" by the dictionary, but he/you are Liars because he/you doesn't give a fuck about the truth.

And let me add, you're not even consistent with your own definition:

In this thread ( https://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=647709&page=2#16587784 ), regarding the post

Quote :
"There’s no actual fraud that has caused a lack of confidence in the system."


you claimed that sentence...

Quote :
"...is a lie because they have been complaining about voter fraud for years."


...But it doesn't meet your own criteria for being a lie. And not only that, as I pointed out in that thread, the fact that "they have been complaining about voter fraud for years" doesn't even make the former sentence inaccurate.

12/17/2020 4:51:25 PM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"Fucking Manchin rt'ed the national debt today. trash."


Yeah, it's all part of a decades long dishonest campaign to gain political advantage by only bitching about the debt when a Dem is in the White House.

Of course, if one is a fucking moron, one might be oblivious to this dishonest manipulation.

12/17/2020 4:54:04 PM

horosho
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Quote :
"You, on the other hand, can't seem to make up your mind if your position is that they are honest with their base, or if they deliver to their base. I"

You can't look at one thing in isolation. You are looking at the debt like its the entirety of their agenda and then not understanding whats going on when the debt goes up due to things on the conservative demand list. They want the debt reduced but NOT at the expense of any of their agenda (and its their agenda that has grown the debt). This is why "and mexicos going to pay for it" was such an effective promise/lie. It invented a way to spend for the base without "spending". Let me know when the GOP signs off on one of biden's/democrats' progressive, big ticket budget proposals. Thats when you'll be able to say they lied.

Quote :
" I agree in general that if a politician makes a promise they don't keep, that doesn't make them a liar (though in some cases they certainly are); there may be external forces that prohibit their promise keeping. But let me remind you, you're the one who keeps changing their position from "Honesty" to "Delivery" and back; "

Its not switching its just two different measurable metrics of honesty.

Effort and delivery are two different ways to measure honesty wrt promises. If someone promises they are going to clean my pipes, I can try to verifying that by A.watching to see if they actually get under the sink and B. checking to see if the pipes are clean in the end.

Quote :
"It's absolutely true that the origin of Xmas is much older and independent of any alleged "War on Xmas". That's not an opinion/belief, that's a fact."

strawman. Just because the origin was for a different reason, doesn't mean it can never be used in a different way in a different country at a completely different time. Like I said before, people aren't mad about white robes and hoods because of a Spanish ceremony...

Quote :
"When you claimed otherwise--No, I don't think you were actually lying then. You were merely ignorant."

This is where you think someone having a different opinion than you is a result of ignorance. If I lived in ancient Rome, I wouldn't claim xmas was offensive but I live in 21st century USA, so I think about how many christians in this era find it offensive. IMO, it seems more ignorant to ignore context and lean towards the origin of something while ignoring how its newly offensive to some today.

Quote :
"...But it doesn't meet your own criteria for being a lie. And not only that, as I pointed out in that thread, the fact that "they have been complaining about voter fraud for years" doesn't even make the former sentence inaccurate."


The quote from the thread you linked was in response to this.
Quote :
"The only reason for it is that their candidate lost and they assume if their candidate loses, it must be rigged."

I said "the second sentence" and you used the first sentence. Its alright though. Just a misunderstanding.

[Edited on December 17, 2020 at 10:07 PM. Reason : k]

12/17/2020 10:04:58 PM

Cabbage
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Quote :
" This is why "and mexicos going to pay for it" was such an effective promise/lie."


I agree, it was a lie.

Debate over.

12/17/2020 10:40:32 PM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"I said "the second sentence" and you used the first sentence. Its alright though. Just a misunderstanding."


You're right about that (for a change), I copied and pasted the wrong sentence. My comments still apply to that sentence as well.

12/17/2020 10:42:19 PM

horosho
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So this whole time you thought I meant "trump" when I said "republicans"?

12/17/2020 11:30:07 PM

Cabbage
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Trump is a Republican. Matter of fact, he's currently the de facto leader of the Republican party.

12/17/2020 11:31:40 PM

Cabbage
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So this whole time you didn't know that???

12/17/2020 11:37:30 PM

horosho
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Trump's rhetoric is uniquely off the cuff

12/18/2020 12:16:49 AM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"Trump's rhetoric is uniquely off the cuff"


...and serves as a simple counterexample to your bullshit claim that Republicans are honest with their base.

12/18/2020 12:35:38 AM

horosho
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https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1339670460301258759
Not sure where to put this but its my take on the hypocrisy shown by liberals who claim to be progressive in this latest shitstorm. Just because you like a polticiian, doesn't mean you shouldn't call them out on their bullshit. That is MAGA energy. I adore AOC and am happy to call her ass out when I don't like her move.

12/19/2020 11:56:02 AM

Arab13
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You two should just get a room and fuck already. Damn.

12/19/2020 1:26:37 PM

horosho
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I love Krystal Ball's take on this whole AOC/Jimmy Dore feud.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64A7A8QWDNc
The left just has no idea how to negotiate or play politics. The freedom caucus gave Boehner hell driving change with only a few dozen house seats. The left doesn't even TRY to challenge Pelosi and its so demoralizing.

This is exactly why seemingly reasonable compromises like "support joe to get rid of Trump" scare me. Pretty soon they turn into "stand in line so we can get a 15/hr minimum wage". These people mean well but it seems like they lack the courage to use their power to fight because they don't want to lose it.

12/20/2020 12:23:18 PM

StTexan
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So like you want 15/hr min wage but afraid dems succumb to repubs?

12/20/2020 11:18:07 PM

horosho
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Biden/Pelosi already support 15/hr minimum wage. Its literally 12 years overdue. Progressives acting like they are negotiating for it is empty. Why even be there? If they could negotiate them up to 20, they'd be doing something.

12/21/2020 12:35:30 AM

rwoody
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It's so exhausting to have this Dem leadership that not only refuses to fight but punishes those that do

12/21/2020 12:39:15 AM

The Coz
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I can think of something more exhausting. It ends January 20. Maybe.

12/21/2020 9:17:12 PM

rwoody
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Does the existence of Trump mean the Dem party gets a free pass to do nothing?

Also getting rid of Trump without fixing the conditions that allowed his to rise is like throwing life preserves to people on the titanic

12/21/2020 9:28:27 PM

The Coz
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We gotta start somewhere.

12/21/2020 9:42:58 PM

rwoody
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We did, a month ago

12/21/2020 9:47:00 PM

horosho
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Quote :
"Does the existence of Trump mean the Dem party gets a free pass to do nothing?"

It absolutely is a free pass and ^^ is evidence of such.

[Edited on December 21, 2020 at 10:47 PM. Reason : biden being the guy is evidence of such]

12/21/2020 10:46:43 PM

StTexan
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Quote :
" Also getting rid of Trump without fixing the conditions that allowed his to rise is like throwing life preserves to people on the titanic"


What do you mean by this? I think your ilk(militant progressives) and racists are what allowed his rise.

12/21/2020 11:39:19 PM

rwoody
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No

12/21/2020 11:44:54 PM

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