even though I told my gf's parents I'd do the work, they are proud people and insisted they take care of an oil change, battery swap, and transmission flush. They took it to an ostensibly reputable shop in Cary, check out this invoice (I circled the things that blew my mind in cost and/or WRONGness)







10 quarts of ATF?
$13 denso plugs?
$12 for lucas fuel treatment that noone asked for and is questionable to begin with?
$15 shop supplies? you mean restocking your transmission fluid on their dime didn't offset the cost of a few paper towels?
$28 to swap a battery? advance does that shit for free
$9.50 to change a license plate bulb when you also charged:
$237 to pop in a new a/f, swap out the plugs and leads, and pop off a PCV valve (seriously on a camry it's right there on the valve cover)?


call me crazy?



[Edited on April 8, 2011 at 6:27 PM. Reason : asdf]

4/8/2011 5:58:55 PM

Well, in all honesty, Dave, the only thing that I see that's pricy is the labor for the tune-up. And that's between 2 and 2.5 hours labor. Might be what their labor guide calls for...but then I'd have to check on that.

10 quarts of ATF is pretty normal for a flush. Sure the pan only holds about 3 or 4, but that's only about a third of what's in the transmission.

13 dolla apiece for Denso plugs isn't bad either. They're OEM platinum plugs, and Densos are some of the more expensive ones. I spent that much for the iridium ones in my Accord.

I know it sucks, but almost NO regular shop will put in a battery for free. Advance is a grocery store that is just trying to boost their sales at the expense of the time of their inexperienced salespeople. A full-on tech is better utilized doing something else that earns money. You pay for the luxury of having said full-on tech install the battery.

Yeah, I don't like the fuel treatment thing either...and I'm not highly fond of Lucas. Most good shops will carry BG, which is light years better.

License plate bulb: see explanation for battery.

Shop fees: EVERY shop charges these; primarily to pay for their consumables (yeah, like shop towels, but including any spray cleaners-I go through this stuff like mad-or other chemicals) and to take care of waste fluid disposal fees (Saf-T-Kleen charges them moneys to pick the stuff up). Sure it's a little exorbitant, and the fact that everybody charges the fee doesn't make it any more right or ethical.

Nah, you ain't crazy, you're experiencing firsthand the results of sky-high real estate costs, business taxes, environmental fees, and all the specialty equipment, tools, and diagnostic stuff to service your car. One of the biggest things that kills the automotive repair industry is operating overhead. A good part of it is all the technology that goes into cars these days.

4/8/2011 7:24:22 PM

-- $15 for shop supplies seems like an arbitrary number. Does every customer get charged $15?

-- $12 for a fuel treatment nobody explicitly asked for: some places charge more than that. It could've been worse

-- $79.14 for Denso platinum plugs: with that kind of mileage I would have put the cheap shit in there

-- $28.50 for a battery install is like half an hour of labor maybe, not surprising

-- $237.50 might seem like a lot of money for a tune-up, but you are mostly paying for the plug change. Changing plugs on a FWD overhead cam V6 generally involves removing the intake manifold to get to the back plugs, and that is usually a pain in the ass due to various hoses and crap getting in the way

-- Filling an entire transmission with ATF does get expensive, that amount seems normal to me

4/8/2011 7:42:18 PM

Yeah, honestly not surprising to me (FWIW, which is not much). Definitely 90% of that you could have done yourself and saved several hundred dollars, but that's the price of convenience and knowledge.

4/8/2011 7:46:58 PM

^^Just about every shop I know of charges a flat rate for shop supplies. Most used to charge about 10 bucks back when I was working in a shop, but that's about 8 or 9 years ago.

Also, on the 1MZ-FE engine, why not put platinum plugs in it? Damn thing will run forever, and standard copper plugs ain't gonna last over 30k, if that much. And it seriously is about that much of a pain in the ass. The back three plugs are a bitch to get to under the plenum.

It's law, by the way, to obtain a signed authorization to proceed if the estimate exceeds 350 dollars.

[Edited on April 8, 2011 at 7:53 PM. Reason : blah blah.]

4/8/2011 7:52:38 PM

Like most have said, not an unusual price.

Shop fees are a calculated number that is based off of parts sales total, calculated by whatever shop software the said shop is using.

If you ever see how much brake cleaner your average tech uses on just about anything, and what it costs for linen service (ie shop towels) you'd be surprised that they weren't charged more..

If you want to get your battery swapped for free at advance then go ahead, let some mouth-breathing knuckle dragger touch your car - good luck with that.

OP learns about the world ITT

4/8/2011 7:53:43 PM

Quote :

"Also, on the 1MZ-FE engine, why not put platinum plugs in it?"

Because with 180k on it, there's a good chance the car will be junked or sold before autolite coppers or whatever need to be changed again

4/8/2011 7:57:53 PM

After over $800 dorra bux on everything else up to that point, I'd be holding onto that car for another 50k easily. May as well put in plugs worth a damn.

And Autolite Copper plugs are a load of horseshit.

4/8/2011 8:09:38 PM

Welp, that's why I came to you guys. It's been a long time since I've taken a 4-wheeled vehicle to a mechanic proper. Guess we all gotta stay afloat somehow, and fortunately in this case 800 bucks doesn't break the wallet that opened for it. I more wanted to know if that was standard practice these days or if this shop was ripping off a little girl and her grandma.

I still maintain I coulda done all that with comparable quality for a third the cost and learned something along the way. But thanks for the knowledge folks

4/8/2011 8:40:22 PM

I maintain you coulda too...Shit does suck.

4/8/2011 8:43:31 PM

And ive never touched a transmission on an automatic i had no idea a flush took that much oil. Still though...lucas? That's obnoxious.

[Edited on April 8, 2011 at 8:55 PM. Reason : manual err'thang in this garage]

4/8/2011 8:53:38 PM

i would hope the "fuel treatment" was done BEFORE the oil change. that shit is just an oil contaminate in my eyes.

4/8/2011 10:25:40 PM

Quote :

"If you want to get your battery swapped for free at advance then go ahead, let some mouth-breathing knuckle dragger touch your car - good luck with that."

It's hard to fuck up a battery install. I'd rather let one of those guys do it than do it myself.

4/9/2011 2:26:51 AM

^I've seen it done, more than once. You'd be amazed at how many of them try to hook a battery up backwards and blow fusible links like mad.

Nobody touches my car if I can help it. Not for anything. Except for alignments and state inspections. I can barely stand to let them put tires on a car.

4/9/2011 2:54:48 AM

True, I always stand there and watch them though.

4/9/2011 3:10:46 AM

$13.xx for Denso PK20TR11 is ridiculous
$68 is dealer MSRP for the OE wires
The Merchants near my place does a fantastic job of putting a battery in a car for $5 + core.
That tune-up labor is bs.
I've never been charged more than $5 for shop parts, even when I had a valve job done.

4/9/2011 3:42:32 AM

[Edited on April 9, 2011 at 3:42 AM. Reason : .]

4/9/2011 3:42:32 AM

And what do you know about how a shop is run?

Merchants is a tire grocery store that make money on bullshit services like flushing your power steering.

4/9/2011 3:46:29 AM

They'll flush your toilet for 5 bucks

4/9/2011 3:55:29 AM

^ why do u say flushing power steering is bs?

4/9/2011 10:17:16 AM

Here's a good article that I think hits a lot of the important points. I've worked in several different types of shops doing everything from tires/alignments/quick oil changes to engine swaps, overhauls and building, and advanced diagnostics...and the one thing I can tell you is this: all the flush services are first and foremost money makers.

http://autos.aol.com/article/fluid-flush-fallacy/

One thing that proved this to me was about 13 or 14 years ago, I worked for Penske Auto Centers (Penske took over K-Mart's automotive centers). After a couple of years of marginal profits, Penske brought in a former president of Jiffy Lube, Jim Wheat, to revamp their business plan. He did so by eliminating much of the more complex services (such as AC work, powertrain, etc) and concentrating on the profitability of quick services such as oil changes, transmission flushes, and fuel system cleaning. The profit margin on these services is HUGE, and none of them require highly experienced techs or their commensurate salaries.

We all know that Jiffy Lube has capitalized on the so-called required 3,000 mile oil change interval, which in most instances is complete bullshit. This may have been necessary 25 or 30 years ago or more, when engine management systems were crude and build tolerances were much greater, but with the advent of better engine management and improved oil chemistries, it's just not necessary. Hell, if you own a new Bimmer or Mercedes, you don't even get a dipstick to check your oil, and the powertrain management computer determines when you should change your oil based on a lot of algorithms and your driving habits. Sometimes, your change interval is 15k miles or more.

This smoke/mirrors tactic has been exploited more and more, and as cars have gotten more complex and serious repair bills have continued to escalate, companies who offer such services have capitalized on the FUD factor (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) by offering preventative maintenance services that supposedly help to prevent such financial catastrophes. BUT...conversely...modern cars are engineered and built better, and control over potential system contaminants is better than ever before. Modern oils are formulated for better performance and fuel economy than ever before.

Now...power steering flush...the power steering system is a closed-circuit hydraulic system and as such doesn't see much introduction of contaminants such as moisture or dirt. The only contaminants come from metals wear and degradation of seals, and as manufacturing materials and methods have improved, this isn't the issue that it used to be. Find me one manufacturer who publishes a fluid change/flush in their service intervals.

Sure, it's not a bad idea to change the fluid every once in a blue moon...but I'm of the opinion that dipping a syringe or suction gun in the reservoir every 30k miles and refilling is more than adequate...and MUCH cheaper.

You do what makes you feel better, especially if it's well within the confines of your budget...even if it's just the placebo effect. And that's precisely what most of these services are.

4/9/2011 11:33:54 AM

Quote :

"You do what makes you feel better, especially if it's well within the confines of your budget...even if it's just the placebo effect. And that's precisely what most of these services are."

Well put.

4/9/2011 2:00:00 PM