I'm not sure how this has been ignored by the media so much, but I've been following it for the past few months. The administration is trying to keep this under the radar, although I think it has the potential to blow up pretty soon here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious

Quote :

"Operation Fast and Furious was the name of a sting run by the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) between 2009 and 2010 as part of Project Gunrunner in its investigations into illegal gun trafficking . The stated purpose of the operation was to permit otherwise-suspected straw purchasers to complete the weapon's purchase and transit to Mexico, in order to build a bigger case against Mexican criminal organizations suspected of being the ultimate buyer.[1] The operation started in the fall of 2009 and ended in late 2010 shortly after the death of Brian Terry, a US Border Patrol Agent and has since become the subject of controversy and a U.S. congressional investigation. During the operation, the sale of at least 2,000 guns were facilitated by ATF knowing most would be trafficked to Mexico. By June, 2011, the guns have been linked (through eTrace, ATF's electronic tracing program) to some 179 crime scenes in Mexico.[2][3] By August, 2011, 21 additional guns were recovered from violent crime scenes in Mexico.[4] Of the 2,000 guns knowingly released by ATF agents, only 600 are reported as recovered by officials. The remaining 1,400 guns have not been recovered."

TLDR: the ATF knowingly trafficked weapons into Mexico, with the intention of them ending up in the hands of the drug cartels. Shockingly, these weapons ended up being used to commit violent crimes, and agent Brian Terry was killed by one of the weapons.

"Fast And Furious" Just Might Be President Obama's Watergate

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2011/09/28/fast-and-furious-just-might-be-president-obamas-watergate/

What we don't really know is how "high up the chain" this goes. What we do know is that no one is trying to take responsibility for this debacle, and I can't blame them.

[Edited on September 29, 2011 at 5:42 PM. Reason : ]

9/29/2011 5:25:19 PM

The Mexican Drug War, as a whole, has been ignored by the media.

9/29/2011 5:32:05 PM

The entire Drug War has been an unmitigated fiasco.

But it's ok to waste money and lives as long as people believe the government is hard on drug users!!!!

[Edited on September 29, 2011 at 6:02 PM. Reason : .]

9/29/2011 6:01:35 PM

I can't remember if I dreamt this or saw it in a fictional TV show...

But didn't they actually put trackers on a lot of guns, but there wasn't enough range and the tracker batteries died quickly anyway...?

It was something extra, extra stupid if I recall.

9/29/2011 6:11:45 PM

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-21-2011/the-fast-and-the-furious---mexico-grift

9/29/2011 7:08:29 PM

This was government that became comfortable with the bureaucracy and felt comfortable that they wouldn't be caught. To fix this, the issue we should focus on is how our legislation of the illegality of certain substances drives an entire economy, a country, based on violence, infiltration, and dominance.

9/29/2011 11:46:07 PM

if you're a member of the NRA you'd be getting emails about it at least once a week for a while now....sigh.

9/30/2011 7:58:22 AM

I've been wanting to start this thread... but was too lazy. Thank you.

Quote :

"I can't remember if I dreamt this or saw it in a fictional TV show... But didn't they actually put trackers on a lot of guns, but there wasn't enough range and the tracker batteries died quickly anyway...? It was something extra, extra stupid if I recall."

Didn't put trackers on a lot of guns? From what I've seen, they didn't put trackers on any. Some of them were simply "followed" for certain distances or amounts of time, then the agents were told to stop tracking.

Now I also read somewhere... that one ATF agent knew this program was bullshit, so he tried making his own, homemade, self-funded gps tracker, which worked; however, lacked battery power thus died before any useful tracking could be obtained.


And this gun trafficking program was an obvious vehicle to convince the U.S. that we need stricter laws. The Obama administration had been lying about U.S. guns in Mexico, and when his own people wrote a report saying that the U.S. wasn't the major gun supplier in Mexico, he hushed them, and all of a sudden U.S. arms are showing up a crime scenes in Mexico... then all of a sudden U.S. guns in Mexico is touted as a huge problem which would eventually lead to U.S. gun restrictions (see the illegal BAFT requirement of Az, Tx, Ca, and Nm to report firearm sales to the government, a form of registration).

[Edited on September 30, 2011 at 8:42 AM. Reason : .]

9/30/2011 8:36:19 AM

Quote :

"I'm not sure how this has been ignored by the media so much"

It hasn't. Trust me.

9/30/2011 10:09:20 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/03/documents-suggest-holder-knew-about-fast-and-furious-earlier-than-claimed/%22%20+%20dotomiDmm%20+%20%22/%22%20+%20dotomiDmm%20+%20%22/%22%20+%20dotomiDmm%20+%20%22/?intcmp=obinsite

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/04/house-republicans-to-request-special-counsel-to-probe-holder-on-fast-and/

[Edited on October 4, 2011 at 2:26 PM. Reason : .]

10/4/2011 2:26:15 PM

New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010

Quote :

"New documents obtained by CBS News show Attorney General Eric Holder was sent briefings on the controversial Fast and Furious operation as far back as July 2010. That directly contradicts his statement to Congress."

Quote :

"On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks." Yet internal Justice Department documents show that at least ten months before that hearing, Holder began receiving frequent memos discussing Fast and Furious. "

10/5/2011 2:20:45 PM

Now CBS is squashing the reporter investigating F&F.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/cbs-news-silencing-fast-and-furious-reporter-due-white-house-pressure_595068.html

I'm sure there's no pressure from the WH.

Are we living in the Soviet Union?

10/6/2011 7:38:18 AM

Well this admin has a lot of practice at getting and/or hushing people themselves. ATF agents were threatened, fired, etc. for even speaking ill about this program. Obama == Saddam

10/6/2011 8:40:18 AM

Fast and Furious weapons were found in Mexico cartel enforcer's home

Quote :

"Reporting from Washington— High-powered assault weapons illegally purchased under the ATF's Fast and Furious program in Phoenix ended up in a home belonging to the purported top Sinaloa cartel enforcer in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, whose organization was terrorizing that city with the worst violence in the Mexican drug wars. In all, 100 assault weapons acquired under Fast and Furious were transported 350 miles from Phoenix to El Paso, making that West Texas city a central hub for gun traffickers. Forty of the weapons made it across the border and into the arsenal of Jose Antonio Torres Marrufo, a feared cartel leader in Ciudad Juarez, according to federal court records and trace documents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20111009,0,6431788.story?track=rss

10/10/2011 12:17:05 PM

Anybody see the AG's presser today?

It reminds me of December 1998.

10/11/2011 5:59:40 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5I5Z0deBsM&feature=youtu.be

DAT SCANDAL

10/11/2011 6:02:16 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p58KzMMpILY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GgPo2cHFq0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

10/11/2011 6:11:18 PM

Enough of that Bill Clinton crap, Holder just got subpoenaed.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/12/congressional-investigators-issue-subpoena-for-holder-others-i-fast-and-furious-probe/?hpt=hp_t2

10/12/2011 11:14:48 AM

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

10/12/2011 11:25:34 AM

Especially when they're given guns by the government.

We'll get more details in time, I'm sure, but this is my current theory. Obama gave a speech in Mexico shortly before the operation began, basically talking about how they needed to crack down on drug cartels/weapons, and how the majority of guns that the cartels have come from north of the border.

What better way to justify new gun control laws than to suddenly have an explosion in the number of weapons available to drug cartels? It would also increase drug-related violence. All around, it'd be great for the administration, since they'd be able to seem to like they were cracking down on something, even though it was something that they themselves orchestrated.

Now, maybe our leaders aren't actually evil. Maybe they're just stupid. We've given weapons to bad guys many times before. I don't know why this time is any different.

10/12/2011 11:35:46 AM

^

10/12/2011 11:40:45 AM

10/12/2011 2:20:45 PM

I'd say this scandal could the biggest example of government incompetence in the last 25 years (since Iran Contra) but it's probably not and I just can't think of all the more incompetent ones. Still, it's stupid. It's gotta be somewhere in the top 10.

I mean, how the hell did a program like this get all the way through the planning stages without someone yelling very loudly "What do you mean we're selling them REAL guns and NOT going to be putting any kind of tracking device on them?"

They got overconfident and it's rightly coming back to bite them in the ass.

[Edited on October 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM. Reason : /]

10/12/2011 2:30:41 PM

Call me a tin hatter, but this operation has too many coincidences to NOT be a fabrication of left-wingers attempting to create a problem to enact gun controls that otherwise wouldn't be passed.

though they're still trying that, but bypassing the congress (sort of) via the U.N. ATT

10/12/2011 2:33:12 PM

You're a tin hatter.

The problem with this scandal isn't the guns themselves, it's the stupidity and arrogance that it took to sell them to drug dealers and not expect things to end badly.

And I'm not sure things can really play out the way you'd expect them to even if nobody had found out that the guns were coming from our government. People expect drug dealers to be able to get their hands on high powered weaponry, their use of those weapons wouldn't cause any more substantial outrage against the guns themselves.

Also, there have been better opportunities in the last 3 years to enact stricter gun control laws. Gilford's shooting was a prime chance that was waved off, or when the Tea Partiers were doing their open carry demonstrations.

I haven't even seen a spike in the leftist blogs calling for more gun restrictions, just complaints about the utter stupidity and annoying arrogance of this program.

[Edited on October 12, 2011 at 2:37 PM. Reason : .]

10/12/2011 2:36:18 PM

Fair enough, but can explain why the federal government would purposefully engage in an operation to deliberately allow illegal sales of firearms to straw buyers/cartels and NOT track them? What would have been the operational purpose? What was the end goal?

You haven't seen that because this plan was foiled... why would leftists use this to promote their agenda now? It has been poisoned. And, if you were actually paying attention to this issue, you would have seen that the Washington Post did call for stricter laws, directly based on ATF's initial and fabricated reports of the operation.

10/12/2011 2:40:57 PM

They were tracking them, with people. Which was wholly inadequate.

If you really want to buy into a conspiracy, tell me what's a more likely scenario. Drug runners along the border are suddenly armed with higher powered weapons than they might have usually had. Civilians and Cops die.

Will people blame the guns, or the drug cartels. The latter seems far more likely. If you want to believe a conspiracy, then the more realistic scenario is that they were trying to drum up support for stricter drug enforcement laws (which are being challenged nationally) by reestablishing the cartels as a boogeyman.

10/12/2011 2:44:39 PM

Whoa. The guns were not tracked. Well, they were for short durations/distances, then allowed to go free. They certainly weren't tracked across the border, and Mexican officials and ATF agents in Mexico weren't even informed of the operation. These two groups would have been required to be part of the operation, if the guns were actually being tracked. Further, agents and sources have already stated that agents were told to stop tracking after certain durations, even those not crossing the border. Part of this operation's tactics was NOT fully tracking the firearms, that has been well determined.

How can you say they were really tracked, when the whole scandal is about the lack of tracking these firearms?

[Edited on October 12, 2011 at 3:02 PM. Reason : .]

10/12/2011 3:00:18 PM

They were tracked and you just admitted they were tracked, they just weren't tracked in a way which was in any sense adequate to what they were supposed to be attempting. They were poorly tracked.

Whether that was by intent or by incompetence I don't know. It could simply be that whoever decided on how they were going to track the weapons was too stupid to realize that once they hit Mexico all attempts to track them would be pointless.

And as for not informing the Mexican government, well if you had come up with a harebrained scheme like this would you want to admit to your allies that you're about to arm their enemies?

Unfortunately for you, if you want to convince people that there's a conspiracy here you're going to need more than "well I just don't understand how they could be so stupid."

[Edited on October 12, 2011 at 3:09 PM. Reason : /]

10/12/2011 3:07:27 PM

When an agent tracks illegally purchased firearms for just two hours (and away from Mexico) and then is instructed to stop tracking, there is an operational problem, much more than "poor" tracking. These firearms were purposefully not fully tracked, allowed to go out of sight, and not one purchaser was arrested for their actions. Not one.

And yes, I think the U.S./Mexico could reach an agreement on how to track firearms in mexico. But you can't say with a straight face that U.S. officials didn't consider the fact that they couldn't track these in Mexico without that government's support, especially when the "purpose" of this operation was to track illegal firearms to mexican drug cartels in mexico.

And I never said or alluded to "well I just don't understand how they could be so stupid.". I have laid out some of what the ATF did and asked what your opinion is on the issue.

[Edited on October 12, 2011 at 3:15 PM. Reason : .]

10/12/2011 3:12:31 PM

My dad worked for the DoD for 15 years, and my wife just got done with contracting stints at the DoJ and the OCC.

I can easily see how something that stupid could have happened.

[Edited on October 12, 2011 at 3:15 PM. Reason : .]

10/12/2011 3:15:22 PM

While I agree that there is a lot of stupid within the DOJ, DOD, and ATF, that simply isn't the cause of this scandal. You said that I was going with "how are they so stupid" when I didn't, but that's exactly what you just said for your argument. It simply isn't plausible that NO ONE in the government never thought about how to track firearms within mexico when that was the entire "purpose" of the operation.

I am mistaken. People within the gov't did speak out about this. Several agents at the very beginning of this operation questioned the tactics and planning. They were threatened by superiors and told to fall in line or face certain consequences.

[Edited on October 12, 2011 at 3:23 PM. Reason : .]

10/12/2011 3:18:04 PM

You're right in that I'm conflating "isn't plausible" and "how could they be so stupid", and I apologize for putting words in your mouth.

I'm sure SOMEONE in the government thought of it at some point. There were probably a few meetings scheduled about it in which at best half of the people involved in the decision were able to attend due to conflicts (that's sorta how the DoJ works). Ultimately I'd be surprised if they ever got all the decision makers in one room long enough to explain the obvious gaping holes in the plan.

10/12/2011 3:27:30 PM

Quote :

"Will people blame the guns, or the drug cartels. The latter seems far more likely. If you want to believe a conspiracy, then the more realistic scenario is that they were trying to drum up support for stricter drug enforcement laws (which are being challenged nationally) by reestablishing the cartels as a boogeyman."

This is a classic example of the government creating problems on top of problems. The consequences of prohibition are predictable as shit. We've seen it time and time again. You aren't going to stop people from doing drugs. You could make the penalty for doing drugs execution, and people will still do drugs.

When you remove the power of legitimate organizations to cultivate/distribute drugs in a legal, responsible fashion, you hand that power right over to the drug cartels. That is what has happened. This is clear as day to anyone with their head on straight.

What's more is that U.S. prohibition has created a breeding ground of criminal activity in Mexico and Latin America. The drug cartels are terrorizing the populations, and the governments in those countries there might as well be powerless to stop it. Our government then pretends to be surprised that the violence just keeps escalating, and acts as if it's not our problem, it's their problem.

I'd like to know what's going on in our leaders' heads. I really would. I want to believe that they're just idiots. Then, I recognize how obvious are problems (and solutions) are, and I am convinced that our leaders are more concerned with growing government than doing what is actually good for the people of this country and surrounding countries. They are junkies - power junkies. They don't want cures, they want treatments that they can apply frequently and in different ways. If we actually solve problems, we would be able to shrink government, and that doesn't fit the narrative.

Quote :

"Rep. Elijah Cummings, the top Democrat on the House oversight committee, sharply criticized Issa for sending the subpoena. "This subpoena is a deep-sea fishing expedition and a gross abuse of the committee's authority," he said. "It demands tens of thousands of pages of highly sensitive law enforcement and national security materials that have never been requested before and are completely unrelated to Operation Fast and Furious. Rather than legitimate fact-gathering, this looks more like a political stunt.""

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/12/issa-issues-subpoena-to-holder-in-fast-and-furious-investigation/#ixzz1abEe0OrV

Holy shit. It's absurd how corrupt these people are. There's no telling how many people died because of this, and Democrats want to sweep it under the rug? I don't know what to say.

Someone high up needs to go to jail.

[Edited on October 12, 2011 at 4:02 PM. Reason : ]

10/12/2011 3:53:31 PM

It's the "this is our guy" mentality. Unfortunately it's a mentality so pervasive in politics that it's become almost impossible for them to get anything done.

Issa has don't some stupid things with his committee, and is generally a prat, but this isn't one of those stupid things.

Someone should go to jail over this. If it was part of some bigger plan then they should be jailed for conspiracy, and if it was just rampant stupidity then they should be jailed for gross negligence.

10/12/2011 4:07:55 PM

Someone should go to jail over this? Really? The righteous indignation from people over this is so fucking laughable when contrasted with the relative silence from those same people over Iraq. Where was all the fire and brim stone when we found out that nearly 5000 American troops and 1 million Iraqis died due to a bunch of lies from the previous administration?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgfzqulvhlQ

It's an old one, but it puts things in perspective just a wee bit. This doesn't even register on the scale when compared to what the Bush administration did. Get the fuck out of here with this petty bullshit.

10/12/2011 4:18:39 PM

People should go to jail over Iraq too. The whole fiasco there was pointless and thousands died as a result.

Never said anybody shouldn't go to jail over Iraq. Unfortunately, this administration is absolutely unwilling to prosecute the previous administration over that disaster.

Somehow, I doubt that if Obama loses the next election whoever is in charge will be as willing to forgive. They'll take any chance they can get to have people from this administration sitting in jail.

10/12/2011 4:33:12 PM

^^gg comparing incomparable situations

[Edited on October 12, 2011 at 4:35 PM. Reason : ^^]

10/12/2011 4:35:45 PM

You can compare apples to oranges if your basis is "which fruit would you rather have in the morning." Likewise, you can compare this with Iraq if all you're concerned about is one detail like whether or not someone should go to jail over either mess.

10/12/2011 4:44:13 PM

You want to throw Eric Holder in jail over this? Fine, go for it. But first lets throw George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, Jon Ashcroft, Donald Rumsfeld, Condoleezza Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, William Kristol, and Richard Perle in jail first. Someone lied, people died, someone should pay, that's the basic argument right?. The only thing "incomparable" here is the scale.

10/12/2011 4:54:21 PM

I really hate to be pragmatic about this, but the likelihood of getting Holder up in front of Congress about this is much higher than getting someone from the Bush Administration back in front of Congress.

A: Obama's administration doesn't have the political will to prosecute those crimes, but the Republicans in the House have been chomping at the bit for a real reason to bring down a portion of Obama's government.

B: Not that it matters, the higher ups will get pardoned in the interest of "national security." Some middle-manager might see some time behind bars, but they'll probably get their sentence commuted like Scooter.

10/12/2011 5:11:41 PM

Quote :

"Justice official questioned in Senate about ‘gun walking’ to Mexico By Jerry Markon, Tuesday, November 1, 4:44 PM A senior Justice Department official was sharply questioned by a Republican senator on Tuesday over his admission that he knew about a controversial anti-gun-trafficking tactic used during the Bush administration and did not alert his supervisors. Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee that he learned last year that the tactic of allowing guns to flow illegally onto U.S. streets and into Mexico was used by federal agents between 2006 and 2007. The tactic, known as “gun walking,’’ was also a key part of “Fast and Furious,’’ the Obama administration gun-trafficking operation that is under investigation by Republican lawmakers and the Justice Department’s inspector general"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/justice-official-questioned-in-senate-about-gunwalking-tactic/2011/11/01/gIQAA3afdM_story.html

[Edited on November 2, 2011 at 1:37 AM. Reason : ...]

11/2/2011 1:34:10 AM

round'em up. time for the dominoes to start falling

11/2/2011 7:42:54 AM