if I said "fuck it" to my family's Christmas plans on account of how damned annoying my niece is?

Long story short, she's a 3-year old with zero discipline of any sort. Pitches a massive temper tantrum at every meal, at every nap, and at bedtime, just for starters. If anyone tells her "no" to anything, she has another tantrum.

And my sister is doing jack shit about it. No punishment, no time out, nothing. I'm not saying she should beat the fuck out of the kid, but at the very least she should have some kind of discipline. You don't want to spank, fine, but you've got to do something, right? She doesn't cover her mouth when she coughs, and if you ask her to, she starts crying. She doesn't close her mouth when she eats, and if you ask her to, she starts crying. She wants shit off of everyone else's plate, and if you tell her no, she starts crying. It's fucking absurd.

I'm not the only one in the family who feels this way, as pretty much every one else who comes in contact with my niece says the same thing. I really just don't feel like coming home to deal with 5+ temper tantrums a day from a child that is old enough to know and have been taught better, much less deal with that shit for 3 or 4 days.

12/20/2011 5:22:11 PM

Life's too short to deal with that. That said, tread carefully. You might wanna talk up your sister first about it.

12/20/2011 5:26:29 PM

tried. her response is "get back to me when you have a kid." dead end there.

12/20/2011 5:27:14 PM

Quote :

"When it comes to dealing with the family during the holidays: shorten the game. Take the air out of the ball. Take a little longer than usual in the bathroom; a long hot shower is always nice. Pretend to fall asleep while watching the game. Play a game on the iPad with the nephew where you have to pass it back and forth and it takes ten years to make a move. Volunteer to go to the store to get the marshmallows for the yams. Volunteer to take all the kids to the Muppet movie and get some shuteye. Whatever you do, stay in bounds and keep the clock moving. And along the way, eat way too much."

- A much wiser man than me

12/20/2011 5:28:49 PM

^ there you go.

12/20/2011 5:29:52 PM

I don't know about your particular situation, but usually there is some middle ground between spending all day(s) with the brat and completely saying fuck it and not going at all. Maybe pop-in for a few hours to get some face time and then leave. Maybe hang out for a while and then plan a few short outtings that aren't for children.

I definitely feel you on having an undisciplined child ruin family get togethers.

12/20/2011 5:31:32 PM

Have your own kid and then tell your sister she is a shitty parent and has a shitty kid?

12/20/2011 5:33:05 PM

well, for some particulars, I live 4 hours away and don't really have any friends in town anymore, (cause djeternal's dog keeps trying to kill me ).

^inorite?

12/20/2011 5:36:28 PM

Have your own kid and then tell your sister she is a shitty parent and has a shitty kid?

12/20/2011 5:36:46 PM

pop in for a few hours and roll out. That's what I'm doing.

12/20/2011 5:44:26 PM

get "sick"

12/20/2011 5:54:09 PM

i had a cousin that was like this a number of years ago.

the good news is, children grow up. and even if she never turns into an awesome person to hang out with, at least you can take comfort in knowing she won't be crying and throwing tantrums after a few years.

i actually look forward to seeing my cousin every year now...hope the case is the same for you in the future.

12/20/2011 5:55:15 PM

she could have that 3yr old well behaved in a couple days with the correct strategery. buy her some parenting books

12/20/2011 6:08:13 PM

Don't think you should ever let that "one" person be the reason that you don't do anything. Now, if you have beef with the rest of your family and you weren't all that excited to be there anyway, then I would advise that you skip out.

But if you really do want to see them and it's the one little snot that makes a good experience a bad one, then I would say that you should tough it out. I have a niece and nephew and they really don't bother me, but they are 3 years old and 6 months old. The crying is annoying. Unfortunately, I'm around the family enough that I hear it more often than I don't, and it's grating. I'm in the same vein that I don't look forward to family functions when they're there. I love them, but I just can't stand to be around them.

They're kids and there's only so much that can be done to reign them in (even the most behaved of kids can have a meltdown). Yeah, it sounds like your sister sucks since she won't discipline her kid. Ultimately, it boils down to how nice you want to seem in front of your family. You can grin and bear it and get through it all, or you can have a relatively short fuse about it and go off on someone about it. If family knows how you feel about your niece, then they should be working to accommodate you.

In my case, I have rooms or places to go where I can be away from them. They stick to the living room, I'll chill in a bedroom. No pressure for everyone to eat at the table, just take your food and go. People know where you are and if they want to talk to you, they'll find you. Find a room with a tv, turn it up loud enough to drown out any screaming you might hear. Yell at the kid to shutup. If your sister gives you a look, just say you're doing her job and move on. Make a point of not staying long. Do what you need to do and then move on. If they ask why you're leaving so soon, you can choose to be honest (blame the kid) or give the right answer (other commitments).

The kid will eventually grow out of it and learn to conduct herself, so hopefully the suffering won't be for too long. Worst thing that comes out of it is that you'll have strained relations with your sister, so whether you care or not about that is ultimately up to you.

12/20/2011 6:19:00 PM

Quote :

"her response is "get back to me when you have a kid." dead end there."

yeah that's bullshit.


A toddler's behavior is 100% a reflection of his or her parenting.

12/20/2011 6:21:23 PM

sounds kind of childish to let a toddler ruin your Christmas

12/20/2011 6:29:17 PM

Give me a shock-collar and a weekend.

12/20/2011 6:47:30 PM

Quote :

"at least you can take comfort in knowing she won't be crying and throwing tantrums after a few years."

I don't know. I have a cousin that's almost 17 and still has full out temper tantrum. It can be a bit unsettling watching a damn near adult throw themselves down on the ground because her mom won't give her the credit card

Personally I see nothing wrong with you wanting a year break from that shit. Just say that some emergency has come up that you have to stay on-call for, or whatever situation works for your job. If you're going to be miserable (and I would be from the sounds of it), then your bad mood will just rub off on others and it'll be a vicious cycle. I've seen it happen many a time at my family gatherings. If someone really pushes you on the matter then you can be candid with them and tell them the real reason you're staying home this year. It most likely won't change a think but I'm sure you know that. Hopefully by the time the kid is four her parents will have cracked and started disciplining her

12/20/2011 6:57:01 PM

Sounds like that girl needs a piece of the belt.

12/20/2011 6:58:34 PM

Quote :

"A toddler's behavior is 100% a reflection of his or her parenting."

Tru dat.

But I also agree with the "shorten the game" quote. It's your family. It'll be frustrating as hell, but it's worth being there for the interaction and to be a part of their lives.

12/20/2011 6:59:54 PM

Quote :

"her response is "get back to me when you have a kid." dead end there."

dumb

same as the douchebags who say "i'd like to see you do it" when you bust on someone for missing a dunk or whiffing on a tackle

just b/c you dont do something doesnt mean you cant recognize when they are doing it wrong

12/20/2011 7:47:09 PM

Quote :

"she could have that 3yr old well behaved in a couple days with the correct strategery. buy her some parenting books"

Parenting books as her Christmas gifts. That would be pretty awesome.

12/20/2011 8:04:13 PM

would you be a bad person for not going? not really.

if you do decide to go, it would be pretty ironic if your other relatives came up with excuses as to why they couldn't make it. you'd be sitting there with parents, sister, and screaming bratty 3 year old, and you'll be thinking "i could be at home doing ______ right now..... "

seriously though, I would make a short visit just to see everybody. use work or whatever as an excuse to leave, but i know I'd catch some grief if I didn't show up at all for Christmas

12/20/2011 8:05:38 PM

if the kids mouths off at you, give her a piece of your mind

it takes a village and your sis sounds like the village idiot

12/20/2011 8:19:39 PM

ahaha ^ true

12/20/2011 8:20:48 PM

Go the fuck off at the kid if its rude to you, just cuz everyone else puts up with shit from that kid does not mean you don't have to.

12/20/2011 8:25:35 PM

Maybe you should bring some of your flags to throw at the kid.

12/20/2011 9:25:57 PM

Quote :

"A toddler's behavior is 100% a reflection of his or her parenting"

i'd say 90-95%. i've seen a couple A+ / F- siblings

12/20/2011 9:45:05 PM

Some kids are just fucked in the head and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

I wish we could just send those ones to alaska.

12/20/2011 9:46:14 PM

no reason to torture the alaskans like that

12/20/2011 9:46:59 PM

Well in Alaska its deathly cold most of the year, I bet those rotten shits would try harder not to get thrown out of the house.

12/20/2011 10:33:16 PM

sometimes you just need a break from shit you don't wanna do.

12/20/2011 10:35:42 PM

Quote :

"get "sick""

Screw that. If you're going to miss out on Christmas with your family on account of your idiot sister, I'll be damned if I would just lie and not even stand up for the principle of why.

If you aren't going to go, I'd make it known to everyone involved exactly why.


Of course, I would talk to the other family members instead, and see if they would have my back if you refused to take any shit off of your shitty little niece. When your sister throws a fit about it, make sure the rest of your family is going to side with you (by at least gently interceding on your behald..."Well, you know, Sally Sue, your daughter really is out of control and you need to be doing more about it."

I would push it to your sister again, too, and when she comes back with that bullshit about "You don't have a kid; you don't understand", respond with "I know enough to say with confidence that if you're a grown-ass adult and can't completely handle a 3-year old, that's a problem."

That said, that applies to you, too--there is nothing a 3-year old is able to do that should be able to get the best of you. It's a fucking three year old. There's no excuse for losing your temper at a kid, and there's no excuse for letting a kid walk all over you. They're a fucking kid--you're gonna let them run shit on you?

That's why I say make sure that your family will back you up--make sure it doesn't become you against your entire family--and then don't burn any bridges and contribute to long-term bad blood between anyone--but don't let a fucking 3-year old dictate your Christmas plans.

12/20/2011 10:50:48 PM

Quote :

"That said, that applies to you, too--there is nothing a 3-year old is able to do that should be able to get the best of you. It's a fucking three year old. There's no excuse for losing your temper at a kid, and there's no excuse for letting a kid walk all over you. They're a fucking kid--you're gonna let them run shit on you? "

this was my thought.

i can't imagine any kid THAT bad unless youre just really thin-skinned and reactive.

12/20/2011 11:11:59 PM

Quote :

"And my sister is doing jack shit about it. No punishment, no time out, nothing. I'm not saying she should beat the fuck out of the kid, but at the very least she should have some kind of discipline. You don't want to spank, fine, but you've got to do something, right?"

What does the child's father think about it?

12/21/2011 12:48:40 AM

^^ Well, even if the kid is THAT bad, an adult should be able to put a 3-year old firmly in her place.

^ yeah, meant to ask that, too



Also, I've found that spanking isn't a great tool with my daughter. For one thing, I don't like to do it, for another, I want to reserve its use for when I really need to make an impact (on her psyche, not just her butt cheek). She's so damned tough and stubborn that I'd have to hit her harder than I really have any interest in hitting my 5-year old little girl in order for it to work. Furthermore, she hates being made to stand in the corner, and corners are readily available everywhere (and it doesn't make as much of a scene as corporal punishment in public). If she still doesn't get it, she hates sitting on my knee and getting quietly lectured more than anything--I make her look me in the eye whie I'm talking to her about what she fucked up, and I swear to God I'm pretty sure she'd rather me waterboard her.

[Edited on December 21, 2011 at 1:22 AM. Reason : ]

12/21/2011 1:18:26 AM

the father is rarely home (because he quit a damned good job where they were in order to take a job in Myrtle Beach). and even when he is home, he's pretty much useless, as he thinks raising children is the women's job.

and, I know I would have no backing from my parents, even though they are sick of it, themselves. They don't want to cause a scene, even though my sister lives in their house right now, mostly because of her stupid husband.

12/21/2011 8:32:00 AM

Quote :

"sometimes you just need a break from shit you don't wanna do. "

This. He's not talking about never seeing his family again. Just skipping Christmas for a year. There's nothing wrong with this. You do what you've gotta do for your personal sanity sometimes. Christmas comes every year and maybe by next year things will be better with the niece and/or the one year break will have you better able to grin and bare it.

12/21/2011 8:53:44 AM

Spike the kid's juice with night-time Benadryl while you're home, or with whatever liquor is around. I have a cousin who always had a lot of health issues (my aunt was 45 when she had her), this kid couldn't have anything dairy (so no pizza or ice cream at family gatherings), no red dye # whatever (so no candy, certain juices, etc), and if she couldn't have her way, she held her breath until she passed out. I enjoyed making her mad, just to see how big the tantrum grew. Now she's 14 and somewhat calmer, but don't bad mouth Justin Bieber. Good luck.

12/21/2011 9:46:50 AM

the kid is 3.

no excuse for bad parenting

but also no reason to miss out on seeing the rest of your family.

12/21/2011 10:29:18 AM

what say you, parents of TWW? is 3 old enough to be behaving reasonably?

12/21/2011 10:36:05 AM

I mean, all three year olds are going to have tantrums sometimes. It's more about what the parent does when the kid is having a meltdown than the kid having one in the first place.

12/21/2011 10:38:14 AM

our daughter just turned 2 last week and will throw tantrums every now and then, but we put her in timeout or if she gets like inconsolable we'll take her away from people until she calms down. I've heard some bad things about the "terrible twos" and then it supposedly doesnt get a whole lot better when kids are 3 either, but I think thats a bunch of bull as long as you stick to your guns when disciplining.

Its not really your place to try and critique your sister's parenting skills (and she'll inevitably talk down to you since you dont have kids of your own) so I would just become the "scary uncle" that your niece tries to avoid and show how obviously ticked off you are when your niece ruins dinner - hopefully your sister will get the message

12/21/2011 11:03:36 AM

And for anyone interested, here's the science behind tantrums: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/12/05/143062378/whats-behind-a-temper-tantrum-scientists-deconstruct-the-screams

12/21/2011 11:09:45 AM

^interesting.

12/21/2011 11:21:58 AM

i believe it is critical that a child should not receive warnings before discipline is handed out. That way they have to behave all the time. It also greatly reduces the number of times you need to discipline them.

12/21/2011 11:27:19 AM

^i think the major problem with warnings is that a lot of parents don't follow through with their threats.

12/21/2011 11:42:18 AM

^Ditto. IMHO, giving warnings is great because you eventually let the child know that listening to instruction can avoid consequences. I also think that you have to communicate with them after you discipline them (so don't just pop 'em and then not tell them anything or yell).

I was in Advanced Auto the other day and was waiting on this mother who had a daughter that looked about 3 years old. Was acting about the same as what aaronburro is describing. The mother kept saying "calm down", "stop that", "put that down", "no you can't have a candy bar". Then the girl finally started unwrapping a candy bar and she goes, "Well, now I have to pay for that; see what you did?" She started paying for it and the girl started saying "I want the candy NOW!" The mother went from "no" to "not now" to "you'll have to ask your grandfather later tonight" to "you can have half in the car". Long story short... this kept spiraling out of control until you had the "you're going to get a spanking" followed by "you might get a spanking" followed by "your grandfather is going to give you a spanking" followed by "you're not going to get your candy bar", etc, etc....

...I'd be curious if many of these parents grew the balls to stand up to a 2' tall 3 year old if some of these problems would work themselves out.

12/21/2011 12:50:09 PM

lol in college I worked in a toy store for awhile and I saw A LOT of that sort of "parenting" going on. I'm sure by now those kids are whiny high schoolers who can't understand why the manager of their McDonald's job doesn't want to put up with their bullshit.

12/21/2011 1:08:08 PM

Quote :

"^Ditto. IMHO, giving warnings is great because you eventually let the child know that listening to instruction can avoid consequences. I also think that you have to communicate with them after you discipline them (so don't just pop 'em and then not tell them anything or yell)."

Seconded. They are great as long as you will back it up. I warn mine and sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. Sometimes I have to elevate it to taking the DS, turning off whatever, or occasionally even spanking. Whatever it is I do though I also sit down and calmly talk to them. I explain to them why I did it, ask them did they understand when I warned them, and that regardless I still love them. They are sometimes angry or upset, but at least I try to explain it. I don't want to just spank somebody and then make them feel even more like shit by ignoring them, yelling at them, or sending them away. Just my opinion as a parent of a 4 and 8 year old. And yes a 3 year old can be expected to exhibit some self control at that age. They will still act up, but what you are describing sounds ridiculous.

12/21/2011 1:40:21 PM