Do you think that a simplified government works better than a complex government?

A simple government would be a constitutional government without exceptions and restrictions. However we'd have to make unwarranted and obvious deceit and dishonesty a crime while rewarding honesty and transparency. (So while you can get in trouble, you can also redeem yourself)

Does a complex government make it too hard for average people to understand, leaving too much room for lawyers and politicians to inject any reasoning into the law and get away with it?

If you think about:
There's so many laws and law books that no single person can know all the law.
There's so many laws and law books that no single person can read all the law.
The law is changed and modified so often that no single person can keep up to date.

Not to mention, half of the politicians can't even pass the exam that's given to foreigners wanting to enter the country.

Also, as an ordinary citizen not connected with law, a lawyer could walk up to you and say ANYTHING and you'll have to believe it because you don't have time, know-how, access, resources, money, et al to check his work!

With that in mind:
Is it possible to make government so simple that even a third grader could understand it?
I know it's possible.

I believe we don't do it simply because people that run the government and shady citizens want to get away with underhanded shit using vagueness in interpretation of the law.



[Edited on February 5, 2012 at 2:33 PM. Reason : .]

2/5/2012 2:30:57 PM

A simple OP works better than a complex one

2/5/2012 2:57:07 PM

Actually, I'm really glad you pointed that out.

If I could explain things in a more simple and smooth way, messages would come across much easier.

I know other people can do it, and I wish I had a translator walking with me so I can get my ideas out more efficiently.

In fact, I bet everything I just said could be summarized into one beautiful sentence... which is unbeknownst to me. I wouldn't even know where to start in making it simpler.


(I don't have that ability to be precise, I interchange words like jail/prison, nude/naked, which the precise literal definition may or may not determine what I'm actually wanting to say or communicate, which creates confusion. However, if you analyze what I'm trying to say versus what I'm literally saying, I start making sense. The problem is that many people can't analyze what I'm trying to say and take me literally, which is like talking to a computer. I hope you can see my frustration.)

[Edited on February 5, 2012 at 3:08 PM. Reason : .]

2/5/2012 3:07:15 PM

I think simplicity is admirable and something to be strived for; however, I feel it's the nature of government to become complex and bureaucratic. Is there a modern, globalized nation with a simplified government?

2/5/2012 3:08:16 PM

Quote :

"Is there a modern, globalized nation with a simplified government?"

North Korea.... the whole nation is on the same wavelength.
but their simple mission statement is to idolize their own country and praise the leader. Everything revolves around the government.

If we were to make our mission statement a noble one, such as the preservation of freedom, liberty, and justice for all, I think we'd be onto something.

[Edited on February 5, 2012 at 3:13 PM. Reason : .]

2/5/2012 3:12:47 PM

I think the one of the inherent traits of a simple government should be transparency, which NK certainly isn't.

It seems like a really difficult argument because complexity could a matter of governmental division, legalese, or even number of individual employed by the government.

2/5/2012 3:20:42 PM

I agree with your sentiment, but this is a much more difficult problem than you say.

The problem is that even if we were to completely scuttle all legal precedence and rewrite a simplified legal code, the entire project would quickly become complex once again. Think of something like First Degree Murder. Seems simple enough: person is guilty if the murder was both willful and premeditated. Yet when you start trying people, it quickly becomes complex. What is the threshold that makes something premeditated? Where do you draw the line on willful? I assume you want people to be equally and consistently tried in court for the same crime. Now you start building large libraries of precedence and case work.

Take this one simple crime and multiply it across much more complex and gray areas. Contract enforcement for example: what does one wording mean over another? What is precedence? How about real estate? Exactly what defines your property versus mine? How has it been traditionally enforced? When does one person's actions go from private activity to public nuisance? We write a law and later realize how badly worded it was; shouldn't we have the right to adjust it?

Throw in a few people who skirt legality to game the system (rightly or wrongly), and you just further deepen the situation.

2/5/2012 4:34:29 PM

If the problem requires a complex solution, then we should have a complex solution, period. Arguing for simplicity because it's more convenient for you has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how effective it would be for managing the task it's assigned to.

Quote :

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

-H. L. Mencken

2/7/2012 12:59:23 PM

Our problems are social problems. As such, only people can solve them. Having the government impose complex structures upon those actually trying to derive solutions merely makes whatever complex solution they have come up with even more complex, potentially too complex to achieve.

2/7/2012 3:05:43 PM

Government is a simple solution to a complex problem. "People don't do what we want? Force them to do what we want!"

Quote :

"If the problem requires a complex solution, then we should have a complex solution, period. Arguing for simplicity because it's more convenient for you has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how effective it would be for managing the task it's assigned to. "

God help us when you and your gang of self-appointed technocrats are allowed to rule the world. Libertarians have a shitload of guns, so good luck making it happen.

[Edited on February 7, 2012 at 3:32 PM. Reason : ]

2/7/2012 3:19:03 PM

Quote :

"Is it possible to make government so simple that even a third grader could understand it?"

Is it possible to make nuclear reactors and fighter jets so simple even a third grader could understand them? If it were, would that make it a good idea?

2/7/2012 5:07:30 PM

Quote :

"North Korea.... the whole nation is on the same wavelength."

lol no, there's plenty of underground commerce and attempts to flee to China

also NK is neither modern nor globalized

2/7/2012 5:41:48 PM

yeah, definitely neither. particularly regarding being globalized, DPRK would strongly contend for the most isolated state on the planet.

2/7/2012 7:31:56 PM

Quote :

"Not to mention, half of the politicians can't even pass the exam that's given to foreigners wanting to enter the country."

I can't speak for how many politicians can pass this exam, but it is emphatically not complicated. When people bring up that test, it isn't to point out how hard it is -- it's to point out how dumb natural-born Americans are for not being able to pass it.

Quote :

"Also, as an ordinary citizen not connected with law, a lawyer could walk up to you and say ANYTHING and you'll have to believe it because you don't have time, know-how, access, resources, money, et al to check his work!"

A fact which is probably true of most professions. You could probably tell me some fairly ridiculous things about how to run a failing pizza business, and I'd "have to believe it" because I don't have the time, resources, and money to open and operate a failing pizza business.

Quote :

"There's so many laws and law books that no single person can know all the law. There's so many laws and law books that no single person can read all the law."

So? Specialization and division of labor are cornerstones of capitalism. I'd rather the lawyer who handles my traffic ticket be different from the one who handles a capital murder trial, and vice versa.

That said, excessive complexity in government is a problem that wants fixing. Just not for the reasons you offered in the OP.

Quote :

"Is it possible to make government so simple that even a third grader could understand it?"

No, and I don't think it's desirable to have that level of simplicity. Do you trust a third grader to drive a car or own guns? No. In part because third graders are not very bright. How about we settle for a system that reasonably educated adults can understand?

As with the immigration exam you mentioned, the solution here isn't "make the test dumber," it's "make the students smarter."

2/7/2012 8:24:38 PM

Quote :

"You could probably tell me some fairly ridiculous things about how to run a failing pizza business, and I'd "have to believe it" because I don't have the time, resources, and money to open and operate a failing pizza business."

Lol.

Quote :

"So? Specialization and division of labor are cornerstones of capitalism. I'd rather the lawyer who handles my traffic ticket be different from the one who handles a capital murder trial, and vice versa."

Yes, thank you. These laws aren't complicated because they were original written that way. They're complicated because older, simpler laws had loopholes that skilled lawyers took advantage of. That's what happens when you have a set of super-simple rules: interpretation, nuance, and special cases abound. The reason our laws are complex and devised by professionals is so that they can short circuit and cut off the attempts of other professionals to take advantage of ambiguity or vagueness.

[Edited on February 8, 2012 at 2:16 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2012 2:13:52 PM

Quote :

"God help us when you and your gang of self-appointed technocrats are allowed to rule the world. "

It's possible to consult a butcher for advice over dinner without letting him order your food for you. Consulting specialists does not equal giving specialists unilateral power to impose their advice.

Quote :

"Libertarians have a shitload of guns, so good luck making it happen."

As I pointed out above, that's not what I want to "make happen". Additionally, it's milquetoast liberals who are afraid of guns. If you want to square off with some genuine Leftists, it's going to come down to marksmanship.

[Edited on February 8, 2012 at 2:20 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2012 2:20:00 PM

Quote :

"Yes, thank you. These laws aren't complicated because they were original written that way. They're complicated because older, simpler laws had loopholes that skilled lawyers took advantage of. That's what happens when you have a set of super-simple rules: interpretation, nuance, and special cases abound. The reason our laws are complex and devised by professionals is so that they can short circuit and cut off the attempts of other professionals to take advantage of ambiguity or vagueness. "

We could take a less cynical view of it and simply say that we want to make sure those super-simple rules are applied consistently and thus, even a "third grade" rule can become complex fast. I agree with the general sentiment though; that's why, for better or worse, we need lawyers (and for that matter, that's why you have so many "flavors" of lawyers since not even a single lawyer or law firm can be good at all aspects of the law).

2/8/2012 4:56:33 PM

or is it simplexity versus complicity.........

2/8/2012 5:07:16 PM