my business partner and I are looking to develop a cloud-based app and lack the programming skills to go for it alone.

in short, the software will need to partition and identify data. I know this is very vague, but if we find the right person, we will give equity in the business, as well as pay for some services up front. I can be more specific in person once we have the non-disclosure forms and all of that in place.

PM if you are interested in such a project. please include your relevant experience. thanks!

6/25/2012 2:55:57 PM

Fuck you.

6/25/2012 3:12:28 PM

something I said? you mad?

6/25/2012 3:15:59 PM

At least write Objective-C instead of iOS, lol.

6/25/2012 3:20:35 PM

fair enough. I will never pretend to understand the programming world. not my thing. a friend had to tell me to write SQL instead of sequel.

but, we have a great idea and it is a paying gig for someone. I dont expect anyone to work for free or kick in any money. it if works well, it could be a great product. if my solicitation is unwanted, I will go away.

to get a little more into it, I need something that can organize construction documents, identify items on them and access them quickly within a partitioned database to aid with project management.

6/25/2012 3:27:45 PM

I infer that some guy willing to blab about the details of his equity-payout start-up probably has yet to to talk to a lawyer and therefore does not have his shit together. Based on these assumptions, I estimate the hourly rate he's willing to pay for the services requested is minimum wage +/- $1.50.

6/25/2012 3:36:16 PM

you infer wrong. I do have an attorney and I currently run a successful business. I have everything you need, friend, to start another company.

I have given zero details that would endanger any of the proprietary aspects of our product. hell, some of those aspects havent been invented yet (hence why I need a programmer)

I also expect to pay quite a bit more than $1.50/hr. if you are not interested, then great. I wont have to even consider dealing with you. GOOD DAY SIR.

6/25/2012 3:45:08 PM

GL finding someone that knows how to do on-the-fly OCR with a iPhone

6/25/2012 3:52:11 PM

yes, I expect this to be a difficult project, especially with the layering needed within the database management software.

6/25/2012 3:58:41 PM

Honestly, your best bet is to farm it out to one of those contract sites where people end up working for like 1% of what they would normally.

Otherwise, be prepared to pony up $150+/hr. If that doesn't scare you away, PM me.

6/25/2012 4:16:31 PM

Ill do the db/SQL work for 50/hr

6/25/2012 6:19:18 PM

BUY AN ADD

6/25/2012 10:26:47 PM

Quote :

"GL finding someone that knows how to do on-the-fly OCR with a iPhone"

Evernote

6/26/2012 1:01:36 AM

Ideas are worth shit... execution is what matters. If the idea is sufficiently good then other people are already working on it.

Also, how do you know you need SQL? Sounds like you need a consultant to evaluate your path and put a plan together.

6/26/2012 9:57:15 AM

Look, man, he already runs a successful business.

6/26/2012 10:57:12 AM

He seems knowing nothing about SQL.

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 11:03 AM. Reason : grammar]

6/26/2012 11:02:42 AM

I get your point, but by your rationale, the people who started Instagram should have never bothered because pictures and editing software already existed.

Needs trigger ideas. Ideas fuel innovation. Execution is necessary for monetization. Whether or not we can execute is certainly up in the air, but there is hardly enough information in this thread to draw any final conclusions.

6/26/2012 11:05:40 AM

true statement. I know very little about SQL.

6/26/2012 11:06:31 AM

Objective C is so popular now, taking the place of android java.

6/26/2012 11:16:38 AM

The guys that started instagram were developers who wrote instagram, knew it was technically feasible and understood the cost of execution.

Having a good idea and not having the technical knowledge to know how much it will cost to produce that idea makes it not worth a whole lot.

6/26/2012 11:20:21 AM

I know it is technically feasible and I know about how much I should pay for the programming. I also know there is an existing product that performs at a below average rate. I know how to improve it, refine it, make it better and sell it. I know the marketplace top to bottom.

I dont know how to write the programming or the best platform to use. Thats where the person I hire for the project comes into play. We need some guidance there.

There are very few people in the world who can operate on all three sides of this spectrum (programming, sales & business). You need different talents.

6/26/2012 11:47:07 AM

To build something just as shitty as whats currently out there, expect to pay $20-50 / hour for average contract programmers who can piecemeal something for you.

To build something requiring thinking outside the box, delivering innovative code ... It will cost you at least $90-125/hour. You should probably hire a reputable development firm in the area if you choose to go that route. The local guys who build airbnb would be my first stop if this was my strategy.

6/26/2012 12:00:42 PM

You guys are so tuff. Must be a great job market out there. If nothing else, the guy is offering to pay money for contract work. What the fuck does it matter to you if his idea is good or not, and whether his strategic position i strong in the marketplace? Write the code and get paid.

6/26/2012 12:35:00 PM

Great advice. Everyone should devalue themselves. We should grovel at this man's feet! He has an idea! Grovel!

6/26/2012 12:38:48 PM

i don't know why you guys are trolling this dude so hard. He's offering a job. If you aren't interested, then GTFO of the thread. He's not forcing any of you to buy his product, so why do you care if he falls flat on his face with this idea? You want the job? PM him. You don't? STFU and GTFO

Quote :

"Ideas are worth shit... execution is what matters. If the idea is sufficiently good then other people are already working on it. "

Guess there was no need for Apple to start working on the iPad. After all, M$ already had a tablet out there, right? Why come along and try to improve something? it just gets magically done on its own!!!

6/26/2012 12:40:55 PM

exactly where did I ask for anyone to devalue themselves? I havent mentioned any dollar amount I am willing to pay. if it isnt competitive, I am sure I and the product will suffer.

6/26/2012 12:46:46 PM

Not everyone is trolling

... Seriously though... if you are serious about the success of the product and confident that its a winner, get a firm to dev it for you. You have a higher chance of failing if you hire someone on here as an independent. With a firm, you get qualified UI/UX, experienced devs, and likely free consulting at the beginning as you explain your idea to them in detail with an NDA, and they advise on how the app should be tackled.

6/26/2012 1:17:03 PM

He must watch Social Network a lot of times.

6/26/2012 1:21:04 PM

I agree with the firm approach. Not that people on here cannot do the job, but we won't take you seriously unless you pay Texa$ + Ala$ka.

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 3:13 PM. Reason : -]

6/26/2012 3:13:23 PM

Fair enough robster

Although there seems to be a lot of freelance talent out there (not necessarily just on the TWW)

6/26/2012 6:06:01 PM

Are you looking for an employee or are you looking for a technical cofounder?

6/26/2012 7:37:27 PM

Probably employee.

6/26/2012 7:53:32 PM

I am looking for an independent contractor up front, once relationship is established it will change into long term partnership.

6/26/2012 9:35:38 PM

^There's your problem. Your wording is classic for "I have an idea, but no money or capitol or technical know-how". Not to say that is the case, but you need to realize that by posting the contract + future equity offer, you are instantly going to be discredited by damn near every professional developer and absolutely every dev who has ever done contract work in the past. It's a huge red flag.

Either pay a firm to do the dev, or find a dev and hand him 70-80% equity in the venture.

Your response that theres an existing product that is just poorly made and made you can do it better is another huge red flag as well. Again, not to say you aren't the exception, but the way you word and approach this project is going to have a big impact on how seriously others take the opportunity.

So far you're batting 0/2 from where I sit in terms of a classic "me too" derivate improvement project with very little opportunity (and thus very little incentive for equity)

Check out freelancer.com, lance.com, worker.com



[Edited on June 27, 2012 at 12:02 AM. Reason : links]

6/27/2012 12:01:21 AM

70-80% equity? huh?

6/27/2012 8:21:04 AM

Watch out for some "Zuckerberg"s stealing your idea.

6/27/2012 9:17:57 AM

Quote :

"70-80% equity? huh?"

While that's obviously too much, you have to realize that your idea is worth nothing without the ability to execute. On top of that, you're already coming into a market where a competing product exists and is known about, so as valuable as you might think your idea is, it's apparently already being done (though poorly, in your opinion).

If you're planning on this being a one-off type development thing, hiring a contractor is fine. If you're planning on turning this into an actual business with updates and going across multiple platforms, you need a technical co-founder and they're going to require equity.

At a base level, you have to answer this question: "Do you want an independent contractor, someone who has absolutely no stake in your business whatsoever, making long term technical choices about your business for you?"

6/27/2012 10:52:58 AM

Quote :

"If you're planning on this being a one-off type development thing, hiring a contractor is fine. If you're planning on turning this into an actual business with updates and going across multiple platforms, you need a technical co-founder and they're going to require equity. At a base level, you have to answer this question: "Do you want an independent contractor, someone who has absolutely no stake in your business whatsoever, making long term technical choices about your business for you?""

I completely agree. as I said in the first post, equity will be a part of the equation for long term.

6/27/2012 11:21:21 AM

This type of posturing will make most of the freelance jobs will move overseas, where developers are more open to negotiation, and whatever firm jobs that are left will be run on a tight ship and with a whole lot less room for dev input. They guy wants to pay cash money for initial work, and if the developed meets the expectation within a certain trial time period, he will be offered an equity stake. No numbers have been thrown out there by DaBird, why is this automatically assumed to be an unfair offer?

6/27/2012 11:23:48 AM

In part because anyone worth a damn knows that they should be hired as (at least) a full-time employee with a vesting schedule.

This isn't done as a "well, if I like you, we'll discuss equity later." type deal. That screams "you're going to get fucked over" to every developer.

6/27/2012 11:56:38 AM

Stein I completely understand your point. however, surely you understand that it is very difficult to PROMISE equity to someone you havent worked with. especially in what amounts to a classified ad. what if I promise said equity in an ad, then the person that comes on to do the work is a total flake?

in actuality, to make it work correctly, I will NEED a long term partner with intimate knowledge. there will be bugs, updates, improvements, etc...and it would actually be cash cheaper for me to give someone an equity stake in exchange for these things rather than hire someone new.

your business ALWAYS works better if your people have skin in the game. but no way in hell would I ever promise it to people I have never met. thats just reality.

if you get paid a fair fee to develop the project, then never hear from me again, you still have been fairly compensated and lose nothing. if that fee is based on a 'promise' of equity, and you never hear from me again, then you have been screwed.

the upfront cash will be a fair, negotiated fee...stand alone from the project future. the intent will be for it to turn into a long term relationship with equity stake. they are separate items.

Igor gets it.

[Edited on June 27, 2012 at 12:47 PM. Reason : /]

6/27/2012 12:46:41 PM

Hire a firm.

6/27/2012 12:58:04 PM

This is the OP: http://www.caseypedia.com/wiki/Ideas_guy

6/27/2012 3:09:06 PM

yeah. good one. I love to blindly waste my own money.

6/27/2012 3:45:48 PM

It all comes down to what the final product is that this contractor would be delivering to you and getting evaluated on.


1. Do you have enough cash to throw away to pay someone $30/hour for half-assed beginning programmer work which doesn't do what its supposed to do? That's a real possibility no matter how much you pay on a hourly contract basis.

2. At what point will you be able to effectively judge whether their programming skills are strong enough to both architect/design the app and then actually write the code? After the design phase is complete? After 100 hours of coding work is done? After a 1st version of the app is delivered and live on the app store? This all comes back to YOUR skills in managing this type of product, and how well you are suited to do in a way that is effective with your CA$H.

If you are confident that you have the skills to run oversight for the development/design work, then hiring a GOOD contractor is a fine option for you, and for the right amount of money, you can get someone with great skills and genius needed to create innovative code.

If you are not confident that you have those skills, then seriously, hire a firm. No amount of money will guarantee your success in using contractors and you have no guarantee that you will get a working finished product if you use them on an hourly basis. While the promise of equity down the road is nice, its worthless if the person cant make a working product that you can sell. And it's a huge waste of your own time and cash.

Be honest with yourself about the lost opportunity cost and cash if using a contractor does not work out. Expect minimum $5k with a cheap contractor to be able to put out a finished product that can be used(with minimum features and minimum design).

6/27/2012 4:02:50 PM

Quote :

"This isn't done as a "well, if I like you, we'll discuss equity later." type deal. That screams "you're going to get fucked over" to every developer."

I think this is why the responses in this thread are they way they are. Ads offering equity are usually code words for "we're not going to pay you that much, so you better be excited about MY idea"

I'd say most talented developers don't even care about "equity" up front, because no one wants to be chained to a project that they might hate.

If you were to simply say "looking to hire a developer at the going rates for iOS and SQL work, who's up for it?" you'd be better off. Explain the project under NDA if you are so inclined, and if they are excited, bring up the equity. If they are like "wow, lame idea, but i'll do whatever you want" then either hire someone else, or just reap the profits for yourself.

Quote :

"If you are not confident that you have those skills, then seriously, hire a firm. No amount of money will guarantee your success in using contractors and you have no guarantee that you will get a working finished product if you use them on an hourly basis. While the promise of equity down the road is nice, its worthless if the person cant make a working product that you can sell. And it's a huge waste of your own time and cash."

This is very, very true. A good app is more than just 1 person writing code. It takes at least 2 good coders to bounce ideas off each other, and a graphic artist/UI person to make it look nice and easy to use, for just smaller simpler apps with average-joe end users (if the app is purely a tool by specialized staff then something quick and dirty might work).

For something more complex, an even larger staff is needed (hence hiring a firm).

[Edited on June 27, 2012 at 4:59 PM. Reason : ]

6/27/2012 4:56:52 PM

Quote :

"Stein I completely understand your point. however, surely you understand that it is very difficult to PROMISE equity to someone you havent worked with. especially in what amounts to a classified ad. what if I promise said equity in an ad, then the person that comes on to do the work is a total flake? "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesting

Time to read up.

6/27/2012 5:10:48 PM

Quote :

"Guess there was no need for Apple to start working on the iPad. After all, M$ already had a tablet out there, right? Why come along and try to improve something? it just gets magically done on its own!!! "

They had an idea and they executed! That's entirely my point... Unless you actually have the talent to build your idea or sell other people to build it for you an idea is worth exactly nothing. Everyone likes to come up with great ideas and pat yourself on the back, but unless you actually sit down and code it/wire it up it's worthless.

Quote :

"I agree with the firm approach. Not that people on here cannot do the job, but we won't take you seriously unless you pay Texa$ + Ala$ka."

You need partner(s) you can trust, not a firm. A firm at the worst case will take feed back and go in a dark room and come out with a grueling terror that isn't even close to your vision. You have to iterate on it and take/trust feedback. It's a really active process that requires lots of back and forth between you and the technical side.

Quote :

"Either pay a firm to do the dev, or find a dev and hand him 70-80% equity in the venture. "

Also, complete and total horse shit.

http://answers.onstartups.com/questions/6949/forming-a-new-software-startup-how-do-i-allocate-ownership-fairly/23326#23326

Essentially you need three pockets of equity. 1/3 goes to founders, 1/3 is reserved to sell equity and raise capital and 1/3 is for future employees. You may have 2-5 people in the first pocket but 100s in the employee pocket (if you get to that point). The only fair way to distribute the founder equity is equally. If someone isn't pulling their weight on either the business end or founder end renegotiate or fire them and redistribute the equity. Most reputable advisors have some variation on this.

Quote :

"While that's obviously too much, you have to realize that your idea is worth nothing without the ability to execute."

He may be the greatest salesman on the planet and if so that's incredibly valuable. Someone has to get the deals done if you are going to sell. Another valuable skill is getting together a team that gels and gets shit done. That's even harder and it's much more than just hiring smart people or running to lecherous head hunters

6/28/2012 12:01:21 PM

Quote :

"The only fair way to distribute the founder equity is equally."

I'd say about 90% of the VCs I've talked to have wholeheartedly disagree with this. It shows that no one is willing to make a hard decision. Someone is doing more, someone started first, someone put in more money, etc. and VCs know that. It's especially problematic if you have an even number of co-founders because votes regarding the company can become deadlocks (at least until you wind up with a board). The article talks about 50/50 to remain friends, but this isn't a friendship -- it's a business. At the end of the day, someone has to make a decision.

Quote :

"Essentially you need three pockets of equity. 1/3 goes to founders, 1/3 is reserved to sell equity and raise capital and 1/3 is for future employees."

No, no, no. Divide the equity fully amongst founders first, then go from there. Pre-dividing makes absolutely no sense and is only going to weaken your position if you're trying to raise funding.

6/28/2012 7:36:54 PM

Quote :

"...by posting the contract + future equity offer, you are instantly going to be discredited by damn near every professional developer and absolutely every dev who has ever done contract work in the past."

this.

6/30/2012 10:05:04 PM