feeling my way around some 2004 r32's now...gah these cars have so much character!! Thinking the 2008 is still the way to go as opposed to the price point and manual transmission of the 2004. The 2008 looks a little larger, and that could be a major positive considering I'm teeter tottering on if I'm going to have enough room.

Really just need to get out and sit in these cars...drive them around a little to see if I could see them as my DD.

10/30/2012 5:39:28 PM

Mk5/6 is a much better chassis than the mk4. The mk4 r32 makes up for a lot of the deficiencies (tt lcas and ind rear) but still not as good. I'd go 2008 R32 or mk6 GTI.

10/30/2012 6:55:46 PM

I don't doubt that, I think it's a better idea to drive the MK4 first though, to get a better sense of that. Preciate the input.

10/30/2012 9:24:35 PM

I recant, for $20k there are MUCH better buys than a volkswagen.
performance and driving dynamics?
c5 z06
e46 m3
evo8/9
wrx/sti/legacy gt
s60r
911
g35/g37 (nmsj)

comfort and style?
any merc or bmw of similar vintage
cadillac cts
lincoln mkv - i don't know how lincoln makes better seats than anyone on the planet
hyundai genesis
g35/g37/m35/m37(nmsj)

jack of all trades?
e46 m3, e9x 335
s60r
audi a4/s4
legacy gt limited/spec B

and if the hatcback form factor is the end all/be all for you
2008ish wrx/sti
mazdaspeed 3
volvo 850r
audi a3
g35/g37 (nmsj)

all CONSIDERABLY better cars for the money - unless you simply must have those god awful plaid seats

[Edited on October 31, 2012 at 8:33 AM. Reason : nmsj]

10/31/2012 8:31:41 AM

You're suggesting nicer cars, but at the expense of age and reliability.

911 for used VW money? lol

10/31/2012 9:54:41 AM

Quote :

"lincoln mkv - i don't know how lincoln makes better seats than anyone on the planet "

Agreed. I've still never sat in seats as nice as the ones in my Mark VIII. (Though the sport seats in the Volvo S60 do come close).

Though there's no such vehicle as the MKV. (Unless you were referring to the 1977-79 Mark V, which I highly doubt). I presume you were referring to the MKZ?

The Mazdaspeed 3 or Audi A3 could be compelling options that are an apples-to-apples comparison. Or perhaps a Volvo C30 T5?

[Edited on October 31, 2012 at 10:28 AM. Reason : The out-of-sequence 1959 Mark V is even more unlikely.]]

10/31/2012 10:25:08 AM

The Mazdaspeed 3 feels like a shitcan compared to a GTI. Its loud and rough and tinny. The different LCD screens don"t even have the same backlight color of fonts. It torquesteers like crazy. Its really not a nice car, the GTI is.

MS3 is faster stock, but a Stage 1 tune (only software) GTI is faster. The MS3 has a LSD stock which is really nice. The GTI's electronic pseudo diff (XDL) is actually fairly effective, but its no mechanical LSD and it heats up the brakes a lot on track. Due to this, the MS3 brakes would probably hold up better on track. I had to go with a Stoptech kit to cure all my braking woes, but the bonus is that the XDL is now more effective. XDL can also be "turned up" with a VAGCOM. GTI weighs less as well.

The MK6 GTI interior with leather is just as nice as the Audi A3's, thus nullifying the Audi A3 option in my eyes, unless you want a DSG quattro. That would be cool, but heavier. From what i've gathered, the GTIs are still tracking faster laps than the R32/R20s mostly due to weight i'd guess.

A Stage II (Chip and downpipe) GTI with just swaybars is a pretty capable car. That's what i'm running now.

Here's me chasing around a Cayman S: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3q60TxQTv4 (obviously the Cayman is a better car, i'm just saying at least the GTI isn't holding me back here)

10/31/2012 11:13:50 AM

Quote :

"You're suggesting nicer cars, but at the expense of age and reliability"

this dude is talking about 20+K on a 2004 VW! what age and reliability is being sacrificed?

anything used is a crap shoot that is 75+% dependent on the previous owner. obviously there are just bad cars out there, but more often than not, any car made this century will last 200k with proper maintenance. so if the market he's looking at is only used, an older car may prove just as reliable as a newer one and that hinges on the owner, a factor that is VERY seldom factored into resale - especially at say carmax.

and yes, richthofen, I meant MKZ, same seats as the MK8 towncar.

10/31/2012 6:25:58 PM

get a 240sx for $500

then upgrade with $19,500

10/31/2012 7:53:15 PM

I'm a fan of VW's TDIs...and I like hatchbacks and wagons a lot.

...but I just can't really see the point in buying anything VW makes that isn't a diesel, and regarding R32s and GTIs, I have never, ever understood the point of "sporty" FWD economy cars.

[Edited on October 31, 2012 at 9:05 PM. Reason : ]

10/31/2012 9:05:38 PM

The GTI is a really nice car IMO - different strokes for different folks. It's not a 'performance' car but it's quick around town, more fun to drive than a 'standard car', gets good mileage, and for the money, has a great interior that will age well. My only issues about the car, understanding the kind of car it is, is the bland exterior styling (though the MK6 is decidedly less economy looking than the MK5 and its bubble butt).

It's a fun transportation device, not intended to be a sports car (but a sporty car) - and in that light, it's a solid choice.

Of course you can get something 'better' (G35x, S60r, 328xi coupe, a4 with a chip) for 18-22k, but they're different cars. They'll have more miles and less warranty, as you can get a 2010 CPO GTI for 20k with warranty for another 3 years. Similarly, it's a newer car. With the R32, it may not have the warranty but it's something unique which means something to a lot of people.

Rabble rabble rabble.

[Edited on October 31, 2012 at 9:37 PM. Reason : it's vs. its (oops)]

10/31/2012 9:36:07 PM

Quote :

"I have never, ever understood the point of "sporty" FWD economy cars"

i get that you don't like them

but it's weird that you don't understand them

maybe you should think about it a little harder

10/31/2012 9:40:50 PM

I mean, I don't "like" minivans, but I understand them. I don't like crossovers, and I don't understand them (for the most part).

I would "like" an R32 or GTI more than the standard Golf, but I don't understand them at all. They don't offer enough performance to warrant spending extra money on them--I'd rather just have the regular Golf...or better yet, a Civic or something. If I was spending R32 or GTI money and was performance-minded, I'd get something with some performance. Either that, or I'd get a TDI for the fuel efficiency/resale/longevity, and enjoy the fact that it has the GTI suspension, for pretty much the same price (but with shitloads better economy).

10/31/2012 10:00:11 PM

duke speaks more to my point. the gti and really the entire vw line is like bmw in that it tries to be good at everything, however instead of being pretty good at everything, it's mostly just slightly above appliance car par for the course

11/1/2012 2:44:46 AM

R32's are not FWD, just as a fyi.

11/1/2012 7:55:54 AM

Lol they are 90% of the time lol

Haldex FAwd hack

11/1/2012 8:37:50 AM

^True statement. Just want to make sure that guy up there who called it fwd is aware.

I love my R. Fake AWD or not.

11/1/2012 9:05:16 AM

Quote :

"duke speaks more to my point. the gti and really the entire vw line is like bmw in that it tries to be good at everything, however instead of being pretty good at everything, it's mostly just slightly above appliance car par for the course"

I understand how you might think that based on VW's legacy, but that simply isn't true. A car that puts down 195hp/195ftlb at the wheels stock, weighs as little as 2950 (base trim), has a great rear suspension (control blade like the Focus), solid chassis, sport minded "nannies" (ESP is nonintrusive and XDL works), decently stiff linear rate springs, isn't a Corolla.

It has a really nice interior, excellent (Dynaudio) stereo, fits 4 adults easily, smooth solid ride, easy to drive on the highway for hours and hours, and has great fuel economy. Not a Corolla.

The fact that the MK6 GTI won pretty much every magazine small/sporty/hatch shootout is telling. It was even a Consumer Reports best small car in 2010.

Buy a $600 chip and its faster than a MS3 and a WRX.

People really need to drive the new VWs, they're great cars. The new MKVII Golf/GTI will be 180lbs lighter than the current model (200lbs lighter than the new Focus ST), have more power, and a mechanical LSD.

Are the a 3 series? No. Do they cost half as much? Yes.

11/1/2012 9:38:20 AM

keep in mind that buy a $500 tuner for a wrx and especially on the 09+ (bigger turbo)
the extra 100whp really shows it's self...

but seriously... a chipped gti is NOT faster then a wrx.... no really... it's not.
the entire k03 will fit in the inlet of a vf-52.

i'm sorry but that comment really ticks me off the other two cars mentioned can be and will be significantly faster then the vw with mods.

The vw wins in fit and finish aspects... it is a more solid feeling car with a better perceived build quality (until it breaks) but seriously... that's it..


[Edited on November 1, 2012 at 10:00 AM. Reason : .]

11/1/2012 9:53:14 AM

^^ to me those things just sound like bringing a slightly sharper butter knife to a steak dinner. if a car isn't going to handle WELL and be designed for that, then why do I care if it's incrementally better than a corolla? same for power.

I will say the interior of at least the new gti, haven't been in anything else, is on par with some entry level "luxury" cars but I find that only because luxury brands have largely cheaped out on interior materials. I recently rented an e90 328 and it felt cheap and plasticky compared to my e39 540 but apparently that's common across most manufacturers. what kills me is how a car manages to be heavier going forward yet using lighter materials all around. weight seems to be 1 department vw excels in.

11/1/2012 11:30:07 AM

I only mention chipped a GTI, because it is relatively underpowered stock compared to the other "hot hatches". It should have more power stock and chip wakes it up nicely. Of course if you chip a WRX it will be faster adn then if further upgrade a GTI, it will be faster and then if you further upgrade the WRX it'll be faster and so on forever. That isn't my point.

What the GTI does do very well out of the box is handle. It has a great stock suspension. Relatively firm linear rate springs, hollow well balanced sway bars, aluminum subframe, great rear suspension design. I track and autox more than the average Joe, and i'm having a fairly hard time rationalizing new shocks and springs for this car. It's doing what i need. I won DSP in autox this past season and i'ts performing well enough at track days. No, its not a Miata, but its also not a Corolla.

I'm not saying its the end all be all enthusiast car, of course not. But it is legit do-all contender for a good price. The only car that interests me for this purpose and price point is a Focus ST. BMWs of course are excellent do-all cars, but they cost more so you're looking at a 10+year old car.

11/1/2012 2:02:50 PM

Great, so it handles. If you really want something that handles, that's still not what you buy for that money. Even if you are confining your choices to that class, I don't know why you don't buy the WRX.

Same thing with the R32/Golf R (and sorry about the FWD blunder; I actually looked at R32s a while back and ended up buying an Evo IX). I don't know how in the hell you ever choose an R32/Golf R over an Evo or STi of similar vintage.

The base Golf? Again, it's not that I don't like it--it's just that it makes no sense. It's ultimately just basic transportation. Sure, it's a little nicer than the Asian offerings, but...who really cares? Is slightly better fit/finish/handling really worth a 10-20% premium on what's essentially an appliance car, especially when the warranty is inferior, the long-term durability reputation is not as sound, and in many cases the fuel economy isn't as good? It sure as hell isn't to me.

I really want to like the Golf. It's just that there isn't a single model in the entire lineup that makes even an ounce of sense to me except the TDI.

[Edited on November 1, 2012 at 4:54 PM. Reason : ]

11/1/2012 4:54:06 PM

why wouldn't you buy a brand new focus st for the same money? or perhaps the turbo veloster.

11/9/2012 10:12:29 AM

Thinking now my price range is a little lower around 16-17 range at the moment. All this diesel talk does have me looking at the 2010 jetta tdi cup edition though. A little more sporty than the bland styling of the jetta with great mpg to boot. Still up in the air. Considering the Wrx... How are the interiors on these things?

11/14/2012 8:15:37 AM

They're good enough. They seem equal to what you'd expect for the money.

Danny, how can you compliment a GTI for "only" weighing 2950lbs? It's still about 200lbs overweight. I realize it's still 200lbs lighter than a Ford Focus ST but let's be honest, Ford doesn't know how to make a light car anymore.

Also you cannot disable stability or traction control on any new VWs. That's complete crap IMO. Not sure which year that started but it's at least 2011+

[Edited on November 14, 2012 at 8:30 AM. Reason : k]

11/14/2012 8:29:58 AM

Quote :

"I don't know why you don't buy the WRX."

Because it's a shit box inside. While it's no BMW, the GTI still has a damn nice interior. It's a trade off...less performance for a "nicer" vehicle.

Quote :

"How are the interiors on these things?"

Shit box imo. Think Corolla. Go drive one and see.


For the money, I think the GTI is a great little car. Outstanding MPG but you can still have some fun in the car (unlike a Corolla or a base Golf). But yeah, I wouldn't own one out of warranty.

11/14/2012 10:37:09 AM

^^ really? 200lbs too heavy in reference to what? a 90s civic? also, who the fuck cares about traction or stability control in a FWD car? it's not like those electronic aids are going to defeat the dynamics of turning the wrong wheels when it comes to inducing controlled oversteer

11/14/2012 11:32:57 AM

Quote :

"^^ really? 200lbs too heavy in reference to what? a 90s civic? also, who the fuck cares about traction or stability control in a FWD car? it's not like those electronic aids are going to defeat the dynamics of turning the wrong wheels when it comes to inducing controlled oversteer"

A 2 door Golf GTI competes directly with the Civic Si Coupe, which weighs around 2750 lbs.

11/14/2012 1:02:30 PM

teg... its not possible to make a light car anymore due to crash regs etc.

i mean your tiny ass s2000 with barely any sound proofing... or roof for that matter still weighs what?

2850lbs? that's only 300lbs more then a cobra... with an IRON BIG BLOCK , and driveline to handle 500+ ft-lbs (over twice the s2k almost 3x)

superlight... just isn't possible anymore.

and again honda does it by using torqueless engines that allow them to use smaller trannies and diffs but the base car is still heavy... anything turbo has +20lbs for the turbo and associated hardware & then they have more torque then hp usually so the diffs and tranny are 20% heavier too.


granted the gti is still fluffed with pseudo high quality components like soft touch silicon spray on everything plastic and other things that make it heavier than it should be

[Edited on November 14, 2012 at 1:19 PM. Reason : .]

11/14/2012 1:16:38 PM

Yeah.

It just sucks

11/14/2012 2:12:39 PM

it's really sad that my wife's kia is only 2615lbs though and its huge for a tiny car.

with 165 raging ponies lol.

11/14/2012 2:28:31 PM

any lighter and it would out drag a BRZ

11/14/2012 3:00:53 PM

I love that Kia dude, so much drama when you drive it it feels fast as fuck (it's not but it feels that way)

11/14/2012 3:03:37 PM

I looked hard at WRXs when i bought the GTI. Even up north, its not the car for me. I spend a lot of time commuting and go on lots of road trips and wanted a nice, comfy, quiet interior, nice highway manners, nice stereo, and good gas mileage. The WRX failed on all those fronts and that's what 99% of my time in the car is about.

Stock its a little soft, but chip it and add swaybars and its great. It does well enough for track and autox. I won DSP autox last year in a competitive region and had a lot of fun during the three HPDEs i did. It's fast enough to hang in the "Advanced" run group. I'd argue that its more track ready out of the box than a N54 BMW. ESP is defeatable with a vagcom, but its really not very invasive.

I'm now at 40k miles and have been Stage I chipped since 1000 miles and Stage II since 35k. Not a hiccup yet.

i'll probably keep the GTI as a daily driver and get a proper track rat when i settle down in the next few years, but for now this is getting it done.

11/15/2012 8:36:45 PM

i had mark II and mark IV VW golfs. iv was a GTI. as a package they are unbeatable. direct steering, tight stock suspension, great seats, fit and finish. stuff that goes wrong can be annoying, but it is usually not a big ticket item.

would buy again.

11/15/2012 9:17:14 PM