2000 toyota echo

worked fine one day, the next morning i can't get it to turn over...even though headlights and dome light work, thought it might have been low, so set it up on a trickle charger for about 15 hours

still won't start...tried to jump it from my car, nothing

wondering if it's possible that my battery didn't have enough juice to start the car (though that seems unlikely, especially since my car is on when jumping) and given that the battery was 6-7 years old, picked up a new battery...nothing

i realize it could be any number of things...though i was hoping y'all might be able to help narrow it down by listening to this sound clip: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3swplezkdmj3kgr/toyota_echo_start_problem.MP3

EDIT: i should note that the fuel is low, though certainly not low enough for it to be out of gas (1/8 tank, maybe?)...i added some more last night, just in case, but it still won't start (though i suppose there could be too much water in the line or something?)

[Edited on January 7, 2013 at 8:10 AM. Reason : .]

1/7/2013 8:09:02 AM

dead starter?

1/7/2013 8:22:55 AM

i thought that a bad starter would click (either once or in succession)?

1/7/2013 8:51:08 AM

not of the solenoid is what's wrong... and usually a starter clicks more when the battery can't spin it over than when the unit is actually bad.

either that or it makes a horrible grinding noise... which is trouble.

1/7/2013 9:06:43 AM

^did you not listen to the clip? the engine is turning over fine. it's not a battery or starter issue.

is the car parked on a hill? it's possible that the pump isn't getting any fuel if the car is on an incline and the pick-up is in the front of the tank. definitely sounds like a fuel problem based on the fact the engine tried to start at the 0:02 mark. how much gas did you add?

try this: buy a can of starting fluid. remove airbox lid and air filter.

if you are alone: give a quick spray of starting fluid in the air tube coming from the air box going to the engine. immediately try to start engine.
if you have a friend: have friend try to start engine while you give a couple quick sprays of starting fluid.

let us know the outcome.



[Edited on January 7, 2013 at 9:29 AM. Reason : -]

1/7/2013 9:23:31 AM

lol doh... nope... def spark or fuel...

sorry...

1/7/2013 9:39:59 AM

it's on a slight incline, facing downhill

i added about half a gallon of gas (all that i had on hand)...i'm going to feel pretty stupid if it's just low fuel, though the car has been so low the light has been on and parked in the same place and never had trouble before

i'll pick up some starter fluid and give that a shot...dumb question: the idea is that the starter fluid will get it started, yes? and so if it starts, maybe drive it to a gas station and fill it up? or is that (possibly) going to leave me stranded there?

1/7/2013 9:44:11 AM

You're not driving anywhere on starter fluid. Well, maybe 15'. If it cranks with the starter fluid you'll know everything is working (spark, air, timing, etc.) except the fuel supply. At that point you'd add fuel, check the fuel filter for blockages, troubleshoot the fuel pump, etc.

[Edited on January 7, 2013 at 10:05 AM. Reason : s]

1/7/2013 10:04:19 AM

gotcha

1/7/2013 10:22:37 AM

You are right that it will still click if it's the starter. Could be your starter relay if it's not clicking. That's what actually makes the clicking sound and would result in the issue you are facing.

1/7/2013 1:57:26 PM

is the relay usually found in or around the fuse bank?

1/7/2013 2:37:18 PM

Hey you mentioning a fuse just reminded me of something.

Are you certain when you tried to jump it off that you didnt get the cables backwards?

1/7/2013 3:19:32 PM

^ wouldn't you hear a pop or see some sparks or something if you reversed the cables? and yes, i'm sure the cables weren't backwards

1/7/2013 3:23:33 PM

Yes I was just making sure.

Its such a noob thing to do I didnt know if you would admit it in the OP

1/7/2013 3:29:35 PM

have you checked your fuel pump fuse?

1/7/2013 3:41:23 PM

^^ well...i only know about the pop and sparks because i HAVE mixed up the cables before

^ i have not...did not know there was a fuel pump fuse, in fact...but that's why i came to you guys, so you could tell me about these very obvious things i should probably know about

1/7/2013 6:40:35 PM

All these fuses and relays we're talking about are in the fuse box under the hood. There will be a map of all the fuses and relays on the top of the fuse box that pops off. It could be a fuel pump relay or starter relay. Challenge with that is there's not an easy way to test a relay. There are ways, just not simple ones.

1/7/2013 7:13:35 PM

okay, did the "spray starting fluid into the air intake while cranking" thing...it came MUCH closer to catching, and actually sounded like it might have right at the end of the crank, but it still never definitely caught

i swapped the horn relay with the EFI relay and nothing (the horn works, obviously)

i had purchased what i thought was the starter relay earlier today, but despite the much-too-large box and near certainty that i picked the right part, it was a smaller relay (looks the same as the horn and EFI) instead of the large (purple!) starter

so back to advance i go...if i bought the wrong one, i'll pick the right one this time

1/7/2013 7:17:43 PM

it sounds like it's flooded if it only came close to catching. if you have spark it should've started up and ran for a few seconds before dieing. go out there and try to crank it again without starting fluid. this time hold the gas pedal to the floor while trying to start it for no less than 10-15 seconds straight. you will need to hook up the battery charger tonight.

1/7/2013 8:51:17 PM

my car had a VERY similar issue a couple years ago. my battery ground had simply come loose and was getting a shitty/nonexistent connection. simple fix, but it took a while to figure out, haha.

probably not your problem, but it's worth double checking.

1/7/2013 10:59:34 PM

^if the ground connection was bad, it would jump just fine because you would be connected to the other car's ground.

1/8/2013 7:43:59 AM

Go to Autozone and borrow their fuel pressure gauge.

Connect to your fuel rail and turn your switch to the "on" position. Report back what the gauge reads. Also, leave the gauge connected and turn your switch off. This may tell you if you have a leaky injector or a fuel leak somewhere else.


I just went through this exact issue with my car a few weeks ago. It wouldnt crank. Somehow, it miraculously just started cranking fine after about day 3 but it ran REALLY rough after a few seconds. I was able to diagnose a few air leaks and a bad mass airflow sensor. Now it's running great. I also pulled the injectors and gave them a good cleaning with carb cleaner to ensure an injector wasnt clogged.

But check for vacuum leaks. Take the boot off that connects your throttle body to your air filter housing and inspect for cracks/holes. Also check any rubber hose that you can find.

Do you have a check engine light on? Have you read the codes?


[Edited on January 8, 2013 at 11:28 AM. Reason : .]

1/8/2013 11:19:30 AM

^^^^ i'll try that tonight and see what happens

^ good idea...i'll see if i can pick that up today

Quote :

"Do you have a check engine light on? Have you read the codes?"

no CEL

[Edited on January 8, 2013 at 11:24 AM. Reason : CEL]

1/8/2013 11:21:42 AM

For the record, if the fuel pressure goes down after you turn the switch to off, it may be normal. Not necessarily a sign of bad injector/leak. Mine held pressure for a few minutes, then started to gradually drop.

If fuel pressure at the rail is low, you've got a bad fuel pump, clogged fuel filter, or a leak somewhere.

Also, make sure you get a good (working) fuel pressure gauge from Autozone. I went through 3 different ones before I actually got one that worked. Harbor Freight had one for sale for $20 so I bought one, and it leaked really badly, but I was able to use an adapter from the HF kit and put it on the Autozone guage to make a working unit. What a pain in the ass. Oh yeah, it's $150 deposit to borrow the fuel gauge from Autozone. WTF.

Also, I'm not very good at diagnosing these types of issues. Just throwing out some ideas.

[Edited on January 8, 2013 at 4:38 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on January 8, 2013 at 4:39 PM. Reason : .]

1/8/2013 4:35:04 PM

plz let us know if you cut into your fuel line to install a fuel pressure gauge because I will lol

park the thing flat and add another gallon (two preferably), prime the fuel some more, and try again

1/8/2013 6:15:13 PM

okay, got SOME progress

first, i replaced the starter relay and it didn't seem to be any different...i left it in, though

then, i did as underPSI suggested and just cranked it while holding the gas pedal to the floor...after about 10-15 seconds, it actually turned on...when i let off the pedal, it sputtered and quit

i then cranked it again and it caught after 7-10 seconds or so...and stayed on a bit longer...it started to die, so i gave it gas and it picked back up again...i let off the gas and it kept going for a little while, then sputtered (somewhat violently) and died

the third time, i hooked it up to my car's battery (because i was afraid it wouldn't crank after all that) and it started up just fine...it lasted a little longer than the last time without giving it gas, but it still sputtered out (again, somewhat violently...i could feel the car shake)

thoughts?

Quote :

"park the thing flat and add another gallon (two preferably), prime the fuel some more, and try again"

the problem is that we have squat for flat surfaces...it's already parked on the least-steep incline

[Edited on January 8, 2013 at 7:38 PM. Reason : .]

1/8/2013 7:37:35 PM

sounds like a bad ground or a bad sensor somewhere.

1/8/2013 7:51:55 PM

i'm sure i could go out there and check...but since i'm not out there right now, let me ask: where is the battery grounded? i can check it out

also, i did record an audio clip of the engine this last time around if it would be any good

1/8/2013 8:25:21 PM

i'm guessing since my trick seemed to improve the situation that the engine was, in fact, flooded. i would point to a clogged throttle body and/or clogged idle air control valve (iac). buy some seafoam deep creep and follow this thread:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/103-3rd-4th-generation-1992-1996-1997-2001/158097-how-cleaning-throttle-body-4-cylinder-engines-pictures.html

picture of iac:
http://tinyurl.com/a8b57rf



and stop replacing batteries, starters, fuses, relays, and grounds as it's none of them. if it were the car wouldn't be doing shit. the only fuse or relay that might possibly be out is for the ecu or fuel pump but since it tries to run then dies the fuel pump is working.



[Edited on January 8, 2013 at 9:50 PM. Reason : -]

1/8/2013 9:18:30 PM

^^let's hear it

1/8/2013 9:32:55 PM

^ your first link isn't working for me (though it might be a problem with tinyurl)...mind posting the full link?

and i've only really replaced the battery (which was 6-7 years old, anyway)...i mean, i guess i replaced the starter relay, but i just swapped it out again since that wasn't the problem

1/8/2013 9:33:49 PM

fixed

1/8/2013 9:51:13 PM

Quote :

"sounds like a bad ground or a bad sensor somewhere."

if it was a bad ground, it would jump just fine off of another car, since it would be connected to a known good ground on the other car. This is def a fuel/air issue

1/9/2013 7:48:36 AM

i'll pick up some seafoam and try it this evening

until then, here's the second sound clip: https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvpqmg9bpcpljz5/toyota%20echo%20start%20problem%20%28second%29.MP3

1/9/2013 9:12:55 AM

sounds like a massive air leak, ha

1/9/2013 4:54:21 PM

underPSI nailed it with the filthy IAC valve...i followed the (ridiculously simple) instructions in the first link and that took care of it...it started right up and was running smooth...after about 30 seconds of thick white smoke from the tailpipe, it was running better than i can remember

of course, i then figured i should do the same to my saturn with 180k miles since it worked so well on the echo...but it didn't turn out the same

if the echo was an example of what a filthy throttle body looks like, then my saturn is downright awful...below is a picture of the toothbrush i was using to clean them out...the amount and consistency of oil on the toothbrush is like paint

furthermore, i used more deep creep than i did with the echo, and in addition to spraying/wiping/scrubbing it while the throttle's wedged open and the engine's off, i sprayed it in there while it was running and my wife gave it some gas...but i never saw even a hint of white smoke from the tailpipe (while for the echo, it was a pretty decent cloud)



is this an indication of anything in particular (outside of an engine that needs a little TLC)? any thoughts on what i should do to clean it up a bit? i didn't take off the throttle body itself because i don't have a replacement gasket, but i can certainly do that once i order one

also, are fuel injector cleaners and the like just snake oil? i used to put a bottle into a half-full tank every time i changed my oil thinking it couldn't hurt, but i haven't done it in a while

1/11/2013 8:35:09 AM

Find and replace the PVC valve......

1/11/2013 12:56:40 PM

1/11/2013 1:08:06 PM

lol

1/11/2013 1:10:05 PM

Quote :

"also, are fuel injector cleaners and the like just snake oil? i used to put a bottle into a half-full tank every time i changed my oil thinking it couldn't hurt, but i haven't done it in a while"

they are now. since all gas you purchase contains E10 (10% ethanol) you are already adding the best fuel system cleaner on the market since ethanol is an excellent detergent.

what you see in the saturn's t/b is about normal for a car with that many miles. if the car is running fine i wouldn't worry about taking apart the t/b to clean it. just keep it in mind if the car ever starts having sensor issues you probably need to clean the t/b sensors.

1/11/2013 8:09:00 PM

Autocorrect got me!!!

I have a throttle body from an 87 Crx with 258k miles that looks nothing like that....

[Edited on January 11, 2013 at 8:34 PM. Reason : .]

1/11/2013 8:33:10 PM