Do you suspect that you will actually ever convince someone your point is valid when arguments are so fervent and long-standing - when beliefs are so clearly divided?

Do you ever stop to contemplate the implications of arguing the same points over and over to the same people, and having them do the same to you?

Is it an issue of vindication? An attempt at enlightenment? Too much free time?


Meta-thread: argue about the necessity of arguing.

1/15/2013 10:21:48 PM

i've had my opinion on some things changed by reading TSB

1/15/2013 10:29:49 PM

I like to see what people are talking about and this is a good place to do it and I like to challenge my beliefs.

1/15/2013 10:42:51 PM

I imagine it's a good place to hone your argumentative skills.

1/15/2013 10:44:57 PM

I've learned things.

1/15/2013 11:15:23 PM

Honestly, the average person has a glass ego when it comes to defending a position. Since I've argued much on TSB I have become:

- much less attached to particular views. I have very hard positions, but they're more sparse and less general.
- way less emotional when a view is challenged.
- way better at making a noob emotional by challenging a view they hold.

I hope it hasn't made me more of an asshole. Maybe I'm just better at proving to someone that they have nothing to teach me.

1/15/2013 11:18:04 PM

I like arguing.

1/16/2013 1:13:34 AM

I like to exercise my asshole muscle. The Soap Box is like my internet sparring partner. It keeps me fresh and preserves my stiff upper lip.

I find it good practice for when I want to be a dick to someone in real life.

1/16/2013 1:28:11 AM

I should have said something about "examples".

1/16/2013 6:29:32 AM

A)I've been convinced by arguments on this board.
B)The goal isn't to convince the hardhead you're arguing with, but rather influence everyone else that can see the argument.

1/16/2013 9:21:56 AM

I've been reading TSB for a few months and have found it very informative/entertaining.

Quote :

"- way less emotional when a view is challenged."

I need this. I avoid political discussion in person because my blood pressure skyrockets immediately and I usually have a slight headache afterwards.

1/16/2013 10:15:03 AM

As long as you don't engage with the chuckleheads, discussing things in TSB is still a fruitful venture. Yes, I lament the bygone days of TGD, Republican18, GrumpyGOP and the like, but there is still a font of informed and intelligent posters of all stripes when you've weeded through the sludge at times.

I will say though, that the occasional aaronburro and hooksaw serial antagonist and agitator is amusing in order to spice things up a bit.

1/16/2013 3:12:58 PM

Quote :

"Honestly, the average person has a glass ego when it comes to defending a position. Since I've argued much on TSB I have become: - much less attached to particular views. I have very hard positions, but they're more sparse and less general. - way less emotional when a view is challenged. - way better at making a noob emotional by challenging a view they hold. I hope it hasn't made me more of an asshole. Maybe I'm just better at proving to someone that they have nothing to teach me."

great answer, same here

1/16/2013 3:46:56 PM

I would also like to add that I left school for several years an I'm currently in my third semester back. Over that time I would say subjectively, in my opinion, and also objectively, based on the grades I make, that my writing skills are vastly superior than when I left school. I can't really think of a bigger factor in this increase than the countless hours I've spent here arguing with some of the bags of rocks that also frequent this site.

1/16/2013 4:56:32 PM

I mean, who didn't love and appreciate hooksaw's constant barrage of grammatical semantics when he knew that he lost the argument?

1/16/2013 4:59:50 PM

It was heaven for my schadenfreude and sadomasochism.

1/16/2013 5:02:00 PM

I find TSB to be useful as a sounding board to see different angles of attack people might take toward a position or idea. Can't say that I've made any big changes in political philosophy or ideology from the years of reading this forum, but it has helped soften some of the harder edged beliefs at times (though that may more be a function of getting older and caring less).

1/16/2013 5:53:09 PM

HockeyRoman: Don't forget Gamecat and Smoker4 -- I was in TWW's Top 100 posters by data usage for awhile just from all the quote-blocks going back and forth with them

I still lurk on TSB fairly regularly, mostly to keep up-to-date on some of the more esoteric stuff folks talk about that I don't notice on Drudge or the N&O. It also greatly improved my ability to write a good legal brief, because few things highlight how simple word choice can be misinterpreted like a TSB flame war...

[Edited on January 16, 2013 at 10:13 PM. Reason : ---]

1/16/2013 10:12:51 PM

I can't be as mean as I want to be against people i know IRL, so I take it out on TWWers.

1/16/2013 10:29:50 PM

^^ I purposefully omitted those two because one has been my good friend since middle school and I didn't exactly part on good terms with the other.

It's good to know that you still lurk around though. The kids these days bemoan the quote bombs, and I just chuckle at how little they actually know of quote bombs...

1/17/2013 12:11:24 AM

Quote :

"Over that time I would say subjectively, in my opinion, and also objectively, based on the grades I make, that my writing skills are vastly superior than when I left school. I can't really think of a bigger factor in this increase than the countless hours I've spent here arguing with some of the bags of rocks that also frequent this site."

The internet teaches a useful discipline. If your answer makes someone +1 or upset, those are both a type of [win]. The worst fate for your contribution is the depths of TLDR land - indifference.

They don't teach this shit in English class. High school teaches you that a longer length is better. However, to make a splash on the internet, not only must you have points, but they must be good, and if you dawdle it's over.

In my more youthful days I looked at a blank Word document and thought "how do I start this?" Now I think "how do get the thought out, pronto?" Command of vocabulary and language is crucial, but standardized education builds and inverted way of thinking about it. I used to start out writing thinking that language use is first priority. No. The point is first priority and linguistic finesses should only be used after you're created a niche for it.

First, learn how to smack-down
Only then may you gracefully smack-down

1/17/2013 9:30:34 AM

Not at all.

Message boards aren't for people who aren't sure about things and are looking for strangers to convince them to change their minds. Message boards are for people who "are smarter than the other people who disagree" to come and feel better about themselves by making others feel worse about themselves.

Republicans and Democrats alike want an ever increasing growth of the federal government, only in different areas.

1/17/2013 9:36:51 PM

This board has changed my opinion on multiple issues.

1/17/2013 10:42:03 PM

I don't believe so. The purpose of coming here is to enjoy hearing myself type.

1/17/2013 10:44:02 PM

I don't view this place as somewhere many people come to have their minds changed, so I don't really get into the multipage quote deconstruction arguments these days. Most real political shaping and organizing happens on the ground, not online.

I post threads like the HKonJ one because its in Raleigh, and there's some chance an interested person might see and go check it out. I post threads about general election information each year because I've gotten messages from people saying it helps, or pming me questions and basic faqs about the process.

So in that sense I hope there is a minimal real world impact from some posting. Mostly though I post about political topics/events that I enjoy discussing, as I expect a lot of soapbox regulars do, and for that there is no expectation of minds being changed or real world impact.

I suppose I have been informed about issues I wouldn't have otherwise come across in such detail, and perhaps in turn I've helped do the same sometimes.

1/17/2013 11:38:29 PM

Quote :

"Message boards aren't for people who aren't sure about things and are looking for strangers to convince them to change their minds. Message boards are for people who "are smarter than the other people who disagree" to come and feel better about themselves by making others feel worse about themselves."

Oh, I guess all those people need to leave now.

Quote :

"Most real political shaping and organizing happens on the ground, not online."

Woah, let's talk about people who aren't interested in having their minds changed - volunteers for political campaigns. You think that there's a chance of convincing an aid to David Price to take a contrarian position compared to his party?

Are there people who cross the political line to work for a campaign? Does that even exit? I'm asking seriously but holy shit I don't think that would happen. Congress is dysfunctional these days, but if you focused on the core partisans on both sides, ie the people "on the ground", a group of extremists on the right and another group on the left... I'm not saying those groups don't get things done. Obviously you have to feel strongly about something to be activist about it. I'm just saying they're the last people who will change their minds.

This is why people who are politically active are partisian hacks at a much higher rate than the general population. Most normal people ask themselves "why should I campaign on an issue I'm moderate on?"

Has there ever been a group of people holding banners proudly proclaiming that abortions should be legal through the first 2 trimesters, but not the last one?

Again, you're not wrong about getting things done, but you are 110% wrong holding it up against online message boards as a place where people change their minds. Some of us still look at the internet as a place to learn things.

1/18/2013 5:50:45 AM

I meant shaped on the ground as in more by your real world and life experiences and by those around you, rather than mostly on this message board.

1/18/2013 10:50:11 AM

Are you trying to say that "real world and life experiences and by those around you" shapes public opinion?

You used the wording "political shaping". This could be policy, but if you don't mean policy then... I guess political views. If we're talking about political views of the general public then the mass media is probably a bigger mover than anything else.

1/18/2013 11:00:55 AM

I think personal experiences shape political views more than just about anything and the types of media you consume more reflect your already developed political views.

1/18/2013 11:08:53 AM

I view it as a game, but one that hones communication skills. You never really win the game, but there is some level in winning and losing by how effectively you get your point across. Getting your point across not only involves speaking clearly, accurately, and consisely, but it also involves being able to understand what your opponent is saying. All of these skills translate into daily life in communications with friends and coworkers.

1/18/2013 11:16:30 AM