Basically No Child Left Behind is forcing our schools to suck, from elementary at least to high school: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/02/09/a-warning-to-college-profs-from-a-high-school-teacher/

2/12/2013 4:57:58 AM

don't want the subjects getting too smart. they might finally realize how hard they're being fucked.

2/12/2013 7:20:31 AM

NCLB is forcing our schools to suck? Our schools have had ample suckitude since long before Dubya and is edumacationing plans.

2/12/2013 8:51:30 AM

testing sucks, but the entitlement and instant gratification mentalities of the kids these days are the real problem.

2/12/2013 9:21:07 AM

Quote :

"the drivers of the policies that are changing our schools—and thus increasingly presenting you with students ever less prepared for postsecondary academic work—are the wealthy corporations that profit from the policies they help define and the think tanks and activist organizations that have learned how to manipulate the levers of power, often to their own financial or ideological advantage."

Oh man, those think tanks... raking in the dough.

2/12/2013 9:30:08 AM

Quote :

"but the entitlement and instant gratification mentalities of the kids these days are the real problem."

-every educator ever in history

2/12/2013 9:33:00 AM

If you take a look at test scores and graduation rates, our schools are doing at least as good or better than they were in the 1970s. When you compare us with other countries we really aren't that far behind either.

I get that testing, and "learning to take tests" isn't education, but we also need some way to measure progress. We just need to find a better balance on the spectrum.

2/12/2013 9:42:13 AM

Quote :

"don't want the subjects getting too smart. they might finally realize how hard they're being fucked."

why is it that the people always saying this are always morons themselves?

2/12/2013 10:00:04 AM

If tests weren't effective, then teachers wouldn't use quizes or their own tests.

Clearly the problem is something else. I wonder why, if we spend so much on standardized tests, those can't be recycled into teaching materials that teachers can actually integrate into the curriculum.

That shift from tests as a teaching aid to a teaching impediment is the truly unique thing about our schools in the last decade. I don't understand why, but people tell me it's complicated. I figure it probably isn't.

2/12/2013 10:00:46 AM

One major problem is that the tests are too narrowly focused, leading important stuff to go by the wayside in the struggle to keep those test scores up, like I'm not sure I even would have gotten a decent education in history or an introduction to art or musical theory if I had been born in ninety-four rather than eighty-four.

2/13/2013 12:21:29 AM

didn't read article; my beef with NCLB (aside from the federal overreach) is that it is primarily geared to reward not failing. It is designed to get as many kids as possible to wear the minimum pieces of flair. If you are a true bottom feeder, who cares. If you are a success or probably even average (which itself is pretty fucking dumb), who cares. What wins the NCLB game is pushing the borderline, mediocre cases up over the line.

2/13/2013 12:32:05 AM

This is why people who aren't teachers shouldn't decide how schools operate just like people who aren't doctors shouldn't mandate emergency room procedures.

Public schools are a joke right now. I spent a year in a top 5 national blue ribbon school. Nobody is learning anything and the successful students aren't being challenged in any way but playing the game of school. Projects are rare, homework is rare and discussion does not exist.

Test questions have a specific context but there are a million ways to teach any concept. Every teacher should teach in the context that caters to his or her strengths. Most subjects are also much more broad than the school year is long so it is impossible to teach the entire subject. This leaves each teacher with a choice to either teach some topics in depth and leave some topics off of the curriculum or to briefly introduce as many topics as possible. Standardized tests usually force teachers to do the latter.

Most subjects also have several synonyms for the same concept but these must be taught in the same wording as the test to make everyone the same.

It would be much more effective for a teacher who once worked as a nuclear engineer to spend more time on nuclear and thermochemistry while a teacher who went through a pre-med program to put more focus on biochemistry.

One size fits all education worked for a manufacturing society but what we need is creativity and critical thinking that cannot be obtained through rote memorization. Schools are not factories and measuring "progress" is not quality control.

2/13/2013 1:24:08 AM

curious: how much do we spend per child per year nationally?

2/13/2013 7:07:29 AM

Hasn't high school always been like the running man?

But it lasts for four years and you never know who is trying to kill you.

Kids are only going to learn what they want to before being beaten by a pack of their peers.

2/13/2013 7:59:34 AM

School is for learning how to interact with other humans. If my child isn't excited enough about learning to independently learn then I've failed as a parent.

Of course, many parents are too busy from working so I don't blame them but I don't expect glorified baby sitting to do the trick. 1 Teacher, 25-30 students, what in the hell can you do but lecture and quizzes?

2/13/2013 9:30:52 AM

I'm still finding it baffling how we spend >$8k per student per year (for the low states), pay the teachers something like $40k per year, and wind up with 25-30 students in a class.

2/13/2013 9:55:32 AM

^lots of useless administrators and policy makers.

2/13/2013 10:59:43 AM

^ And bad tech initiatives. My high school decided every classroom in the school needed a TV and DVD player. My cousin's elementary school had a TV in every classroom, it was used as a glorified clock. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of good new tech in schools can do but like most things, it never seems like these sorts of initiatives are thought out.

2/13/2013 12:23:36 PM

At the same time this is a golden opportunity to start rewarding teachers that dont suck.

2/13/2013 1:33:09 PM

^^ I was reading somewhere, probably from some TSB link, that there are like 20 Detroit area schools that don't have libraries.

this thread.

Quote :

"In high-need schools, resources not directly related to testing are eliminated: at the time of the teachers’ strike last fall, 160 Chicago public schools had no libraries. Class sizes exceeded forty students—in elementary school."

I wonder how many of those schools had big screen clocks...

2/13/2013 1:46:44 PM

We had the TVs with clocks in my high schools. They were also used for Channel 1 news, and the media class would do a 7 minute "production" of school news/events.

It was also used for us to watch news about 9/11 when that happened. I wouldn't say that's a waste, even if 90% of the time it was a clock.

2/13/2013 3:19:06 PM

and they make the librarian the media specialist even though they dont know how to switch inputs to get dvd or vcr.

and they cant change a bulb in an overhead projector either.

and they cant work the internets.

but you always have to call them to fix classroom shit! or rather you had to long ago...

[Edited on February 13, 2013 at 6:29 PM. Reason : nothing more embarrassing than old people and technology]

2/13/2013 6:28:59 PM

I never became a teacher for several reasons:

I don't like kids, I could make more money doing about a million other things, it seems like a generally horrible working environment, there are unions to deal with...

and yet every person who finds out I have an English Lit. degree asks if I wanted to teach.

2/13/2013 6:57:26 PM

I think unused/underused/misused technology is a problem in many, many workplaces, not just schools. And I think that's true for a lot of school dysfunctions. This stuff isn't just a problem with schools; we just happen to care more about schools because we presumably cherish children/education.

Quote :

"Smath74: testing sucks, but the entitlement and instant gratification mentalities of the kids these days are the real problem."

I hear ya. But it's difficult to distinguish between children being brats and children responding to years of testing/all its side effects.

Maybe they'd be more motivated and have a better attitude if they didn't have to put up with officious school policy?

2/13/2013 9:30:29 PM

^that mentality is EXACTLY the problem... blame everything else but the kids.

2/14/2013 7:42:07 AM

There's no fundamental difference between newborns today and 30 years ago. Or ever since about 100,000 yrs ago for that matter.

2/14/2013 8:01:08 AM

^^AHA, it was just a question.

Do you think testing and whatnot have influenced student attitudes?

In your first post to this thread, you separated the two, as if they were totally independent issues. Could they be somewhat related?

2/14/2013 8:26:37 AM

how would testing turn kids into brats? the stress of tests makes them assholes? their disappointment for not being pushed harder makes them act out?

i think neutering teachers and keeping every child in school and advancing makes kids brats, but i have no research

2/14/2013 9:07:15 AM

bratty kids are going to be brats regardless of whether there is excessive testing. The increase in kids who behave poorly (whether you want to argue it's perceived or real) is a separate issue.

the focus and obsession with testing is part of the same cultural shift in all sorts of organizations to manage by metrics.

whether it's education, policing, businesses, the story's the same-- everything is centered around stats and metrics that the 'leaders' use to define success or failure. The problem with this is that when you tie someone's job performance to metric-defined goals, their focus is going to solely be on hitting those metrics-- which is exactly what we're seeing across the country. instead of an actual education, schools have basically been reduced to a series of exam cram sessions.

No set of metrics can accurately capture the full gamut of any job that requires intangibles (soft skills), particularly one that is geared towards the growth and development of kids. Certain aspects can be measured, but with jobs whose outcomes require two unrelated actors (think student/teacher or criminal/cop), the one being held accountable will resort to undesirable behaviors to achieve said goals.

2/14/2013 11:17:31 AM

^well said.

Nothing is wrong with kids. Its the schools that have become places that repress all intelligence and creativity that the kids have. Most schools are operating with outdated methods and no public school has student centered learning. Our school system is still preparing kids to work on assembly lines that no longer exist.

I've seen countless private schools that have it all figured out. We teach according to the interests of the students and encourage creativity, discussion and critical thinking. School is place kids enjoy.

[Edited on February 14, 2013 at 11:24 AM. Reason : although it ends up costing 15k per student]

[Edited on February 14, 2013 at 11:25 AM. Reason : m]

2/14/2013 11:23:47 AM

Quote :

"BobbyDigital: instead of an actual education, schools have basically been reduced to a series of exam cram sessions."

And how are you maintaining that this has no affect on student attitudes and behavior?

Quote :

"dtownral: how would testing turn kids into brats? the stress of tests makes them assholes? their disappointment for not being pushed harder makes them act out?"

You're thinking about the word, "testing," in a limited manner. Think about high stakes testing and the impact it has on other school/educational policies, and the impact all of that has on teachers/students.




To be clear, I don't know why you guys are being so difficult on this one. Y'all seem to think this kind of testing is bad...so I don't know see how you benefit from denying that it impacts the attitude/behavior/motivations of children.

2/15/2013 8:01:45 AM

Quote :

"Certain aspects can be measured, but with jobs whose outcomes require two unrelated actors (think student/teacher or criminal/cop), the one being held accountable will resort to undesirable behaviors to achieve said goals."

This post had the best comments ITT. However, I'm a little unclear on what game theory is being discussed here.

Cops are different. Quotas for cops are outright at odds with the people they serve. That's not really the case for teachers. Students want good grades and good test scores. IMO, the game theory is that parents want learning, and then students want grades. So grades are the carrot to chase so they learn. At least that's true until HS, at which point both parents and students care more objectively about grades/scores. Because at that point, colleges want skill and use GPA and SAT as the proxy for it.

Nobody really seems to be disagreeing with the metric-based system we've used for motivating students to learn for the last century (?, honestly I don't know how long ago). So what exactly is it going wrong with the teacher metrics?

I remember when my classes had a monitor come sit in and take notes. They were evaluating the teacher. Isn't that a direct measurement of performance? Presumably we still use it, but it's not NCLB or anything like that. I agree that metrics distort motivations, but we don't have any other option. Shouldn't we just expand our toolbox of measurements and use research? This is an entire academic field for crying out loud. Do experts just have nothing to say about it?

[Edited on February 15, 2013 at 9:06 AM. Reason : ]

[Edited on February 15, 2013 at 9:07 AM. Reason : ]

2/15/2013 9:06:09 AM

Quote :

"mrfrogIf tests weren't effective, then teachers wouldn't use quizes or their own tests. Clearly the problem is something else."

This has probably been noted, but in the day-to-day classroom, tests aren't your only metric. You have projects, papers, daily grades, observations, reflections, and conferences that all round out your measure of student learning. In addition to this, my tests are typically a combination of problem types rather than just multiple choice and essay. I think it's important to examine what a student can produce, what connections he can make, and how he uses the learned information. Standardized tests, IMHO, are difficult at measuring those; although, the new common exams do include a written response and aren't the only determination of promotion.

2/15/2013 10:21:57 AM

Quote :

"Students want good grades and good test scores."

HA. some do. the ones who do aren't really the problem.

2/15/2013 11:31:00 AM

They don't gotta burn tha books they just remove 'em

2/15/2013 12:45:35 PM

It has been mentioned, but I would like to reiterate, the AYP metric forces the teachers to focus on the borderline kids. Kids that need that little extra shove to get to proficiency. This removes the teachers resources from the kids that are already performing at or above grade level and not pushing them further, but allowing them to relax. Overall, this metric forces the average lower on the scale.

2/15/2013 3:58:40 PM

Reading threads like this and comments on education related articles frustrates me because all of the people who are not teachers having opinions and ultimately making the decisions about how our public schools operate is the source of the problem. This may be the only field that operates this way.

It reminds me of one of the years I was teaching science at a high school in one of the nation's top district. This was a district where every teacher wanted to work simply because the payed well and the students "performed" well.

That county gives a quarterly benchmark test on every subject in addition to all of the state standardized tests and I'll never forget the day I went to the countywide conference on chemistry benchmarks and found out the the lady who made the benchmarks had a degree in elementary education and currently taught middle school science. She had been assigned to this job because she was an EXPERT on testing. The problem with that was our expert had never been educated on science education and didn't even know chemistry.

The creator of the test that was measuring our "ability" had no idea what she was measuring. The test was just a bunch of random multiple choice questions thrown together and worded in the most awkward ways.

Public school suppresses every ounce of creative logic in our kids and turns their brains into conforming mechanical processors and the poor teachers have no choice but to play along with it or they risk their livelihood. Since every teacher is competing with every other teacher to have their kids perform well on tests, teachers must give in to real education and teach "tricks" "shortcuts" and avoid real teaching at all costs to not risk having their kids score a little lower on the test and end up out of a job.

I used to dream of fixing public schools or at least helping poor kids but now I have "sold out" and will carry out real education at private schools that only rich parents can afford to send their kids because at least they are run well. Public schools are an absolute train wreck and its not just a case by case basis, its a nationwide, cultural problem.

Its a systematic cultural problem. I can't imagine the calamity if doctors had to listen to their community about how to practice medicine.

2/16/2013 12:53:47 PM

Quote :

"Public school suppresses every ounce of creative logic in our kids and turns their brains into conforming mechanical processors and the poor teachers have no choice but to play along with it or they risk their livelihood. Since every teacher is competing with every other teacher to have their kids perform well on tests, teachers must give in to real education and teach "tricks" "shortcuts" and avoid real teaching at all costs to not risk having their kids score a little lower on the test and end up out of a job. "

Some say quite persuasively (YouTube John Taylor Gatto) schools are functioning precisely in the manner they were designed to. Forget pitying the "poor teachers." It's the kids and everyone who were those kids and all of us who have to walk shoulder to shoulder with these brain dead, spiritless (former) kids that suffer. Anyone up for dismantling the mandatory, public education system?

2/16/2013 3:48:17 PM

Quote :

"Some say quite persuasively (YouTube John Taylor Gatto) schools are functioning precisely in the manner they were designed to. "

I looked, and Jesus Christ does that man blow at making the point.

You know, if you were going to make the tired argument that our education system exists to create a more controllable society, you would think you could find some source that didn't fucking suck. I mean really, with all there is out there, could you not at least find a coherent source? Here's one that's actually good at making the argument:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uyXGYM6XGA

2/16/2013 6:01:23 PM

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html


my mom is a high school teacher

she had a knife pulled on her a few weeks ago


but then she also works at an alternative school, so it's not unduly surprising

2/19/2013 8:20:56 AM

BridgetSPK

Quote :

" And how are you maintaining that this has no affect on student attitudes and behavior?"

If you got that out of what I wrote, then you don't know how to read, and I can't help you.

mrfrog

Quote :

"Cops are different. Quotas for cops are outright at odds with the people they serve. That's not really the case for teachers."

Certainly the purpose of cops and teachers are quite different as are the metrics that they are measured against. My point was that defining the performance of a profession by a series of transactional metrics (quotas for cops or EOG scores for teachers) only serves to drive those in said professions to focus all of their energies only on hitting those targets. We know that good policing and good teaching require much more than the tangible. However, if there's no direct incentive... or even a disincentive in many cases to the intangible, those behaviors stop.

Quote :

"Students want good grades and good test scores. IMO, the game theory is that parents want learning, and then students want grades. So grades are the carrot to chase so they learn. At least that's true until HS, at which point both parents and students care more objectively about grades/scores. Because at that point, colleges want skill and use GPA and SAT as the proxy for it. Nobody really seems to be disagreeing with the metric-based system we've used for motivating students to learn for the last century (?, honestly I don't know how long ago). So what exactly is it going wrong with the teacher metrics?"

I think that's a really important question. I'd argue that there are two primary drivers here.

1) Generally (ignoring outlier situations, and controlling for external influences), achieving a grade is almost completely within the control of the student. For teachers, regardless of how 'good' they might be, there has to be a willingness of the students to participate.

2) The non-standardized nature of grades (at least historically) works well. Different teachers had the empowerment to define their own grading systems. The combination of objective, subjective, and composite grading systems makes it more difficult to game the system by only learning enough to achieve the grade. Also, the asymmetric nature of information helps, as students don't typically have a blueprint for what will and won't be graded. Teachers know what will and won't be covered by EoG testing, and it's simply to drop anything that won't be covered from the curriculum.

Another thought is that by taking the empowerment away from teachers the best positive outcome of this type of modality is that you can turn bad teachers into mediocre teachers. You're almost assured of turning great teachers into mediocre teachers. The morale hit alone may be enough for good teachers to detach and say "fuck it, this is what they want me to do, so i guess i'll make these numbers happen."

Last thought is that given the shift to tying EoG test scores to performance evaluations, I suspect you can find at least a correlation in test fraud increase over time.

Quote :

" I agree that metrics distort motivations, but we don't have any other option."

I think there is definitely another option. I believe a combination of objective and subjective measures are a superior method of measuring performance. The class monitor example is a perfect example of a subjective measure. There are pitfalls with either subjective or objective measures, but they also serve as a check and balance against each other. Ultimately job performance is about behaviors, and a single mode of evaluating behaviors will lead to unintended behaviors.

[Edited on February 19, 2013 at 1:52 PM. Reason : s]

2/19/2013 1:51:53 PM

Quote :

"BobbyDigital: bratty kids are going to be brats regardless of whether there is excessive testing. The increase in kids who behave poorly (whether you want to argue it's perceived or real) is a separate issue."

How are you separating the two?

Why are you separating the two?

2/19/2013 3:18:42 PM

Unless there is specific evidence that there is a causal relationship, you can't presume that one causes the other, and they must be treated as independent problems. If such evidence exists, feel free to cite it.

2/19/2013 7:40:58 PM

I didn't presume a causal relationship. I asked the question. You can check for the question marks:

Quote :

"Maybe they'd be more motivated and have a better attitude if they didn't have to put up with officious school policy?"

Quote :

"Do you think testing and whatnot have influenced student attitudes? In your first post to this thread, you separated the two, as if they were totally independent issues. Could they be somewhat related?"

It's you (and several others) who have since indicated that they are separate issues. So maybe you could cite your evidence or at least explain your line of thinking...?

This shouldn't be this difficult.

2/19/2013 9:27:07 PM

Quote :

" whether it's education, policing, businesses, the story's the same-- everything is centered around stats and metrics that the 'leaders' use to define success or failure. The problem with this is that when you tie someone's job performance to metric-defined goals, their focus is going to solely be on hitting those metrics-- which is exactly what we're seeing across the country. instead of an actual education, schools have basically been reduced to a series of exam cram sessions. "

- The Wire


A hot topic in silicon valley has been education reform which lots of the intellectual elite have strong opinions and money behind. Most of the intellectual class now thinks the school model of homework and projects at home and lectures in class is backwards. Instead it should be lectures at home with MIT open courseware or Khan Academy followed by meaningful work and projects with the teacher. You can take as long as you like but to move on children would have to have a firmer grasp than is currently allowed to graduate.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0132887630/ref=mw_dp_mpd?pd=1

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

2/20/2013 3:47:16 AM

Moving the lectures to the internet / youtube is only a matter of time. All of the experts believe in it, and it'll make things easier for even the teachers that don't care. It'll be here, sooner or later.

Some things still need to happen.

Quote :

" Instead it should be lectures at home with MIT open courseware or Khan Academy followed by meaningful work and projects with the teacher."

Except... not. The Khan Academy is an unfinished concept. In practice, this is what a Khan Academy video looks like:



let me write it in yellow... sometimes color changing is difficult

Do you really want to wait for someone to draw text on a computer? Seriously? FWIW, this is a new one, so it's a better one. Compare to:



Again, we're headed to something, but we're also not there yet. Let's even say that the internet had enough content for a K-12 education. You go into the school, start class, what the fuck do you assign? The Khan Academy, for it's drawn out pronunciation, "ah"s and "um"s, does at least have a course completion framework.

In the future, the content will come from a wide, disparate, collection of high quality content.

[Edited on February 20, 2013 at 8:16 AM. Reason : ]

[Edited on February 20, 2013 at 8:17 AM. Reason : ]

[Edited on February 20, 2013 at 8:18 AM. Reason : ]

2/20/2013 8:15:37 AM

that line of thinking is already making its way into the classroom... there is a center-trending fringe who belive in "flipping" the classroom - video notes at home, projects/assignments in class.

2/20/2013 11:31:50 AM

^ NCSU has education professors a part of this "fringe". I put that in quotes because I talked to the flippers before I talked to any of the anti-flippers... if such a thing exists.

Some teachers record themselves and use that as the instructional video. I think the logic is that it makes a better connection for them to engage with that teacher in direct interaction.

Again, that doesn't sound sustainable. How many teachers will record their curriculum before their peers start using the videos for their own class? I see the inevitability of it, but I also have a biased view. I have no idea what a K-12 classroom looks like today, I just know what other people tell me.

[Edited on February 20, 2013 at 11:43 AM. Reason : ]

2/20/2013 11:42:08 AM

It will be just the same as reading the chapter... no one will do it. Lectures in class should already be review because the material should have been read in advance. Since middle school that's how its always been assigned in my experience, with the teacher saying "read pages... before tomorrow" at the end of class. The problem is that no one does it, and no one will watch the lectures at home either.

The only way any of it is effective is with better monitoring tools to ensure its watched, and a 5-question quiz is not an adequate monitoring tool.

2/20/2013 12:07:45 PM

^

Than give the kids a project that has to be completed in front of the teacher. Teachers alone get certified to give out "badges" of completion for something finer grained than the current course. There are startups trying to setup models like that, and even some out of work PhDs that want a system like that for tutoring

2/20/2013 12:34:28 PM