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adultswim
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^^
I don't believe that. I'm just aware that US intelligence has been manipulating public opinion for a long time, and so it's good to be skeptical of their claims.

^
I'm fine with that as long as people admit it's still just an opinion, not a proven fact.

[Edited on February 17, 2017 at 2:51 PM. Reason : .]

2/17/2017 2:50:26 PM

Cherokee
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Quote :
"it's good to be skeptical of their claims."


Absolutely agree with you here.

2/17/2017 3:23:54 PM

NyM410
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https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/838648893436903424

What the fuck are they doing? Full-on hack now. Really sad given what they started as.

I'm sure we will have defenders on here shortly spouting some "he's just asking questions" bullshit but engaging in Trump's conspiracies is just pathetic.

[Edited on March 6, 2017 at 5:39 AM. Reason : X]

3/6/2017 5:38:48 AM

rjrumfel
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I was kinda hoping that they would release all the stuff they had on Trump once he won.

3/6/2017 8:19:29 AM

JCE2011
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^^ Why are you surprised WikiLeaks is anti-DNC and mainstream media?

Maybe you are so full-on hack you can't realize the establishment vs outsider angle is what a lot of this is about.

3/6/2017 12:15:59 PM

NyM410
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Trump is an insider, FYI. Always has been.

At one point Assange had a mission irrespective of ideology. He was perfectly right to put what he had on HRC out there. He lost it when he started playing to RW conspiracies. Too bad..

[Edited on March 6, 2017 at 12:17 PM. Reason : X]

3/6/2017 12:16:45 PM

JCE2011
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TIL someone who has never been in politics before is an insider

Have you considered you may not be fit to judge Assange's ideology if you yourself are a leftist? Maybe Assange is a Trump hack, or maybe he sees a dangerous amount of corruption coming from one side.

3/6/2017 12:25:43 PM

dtownral
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3/6/2017 12:29:03 PM

NyM410
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^^ huh? I didn't judge his ideology.

Also, I'm pretty moderate. Favor globalization, free trade, etc. Trump probably supports less conservative thinking than I do. My views actually don't fit place or another but that's OK. More of them align with the Democrats today, especially socially, but that will likely change over time as it has before.

[Edited on March 6, 2017 at 12:33 PM. Reason : X]

3/6/2017 12:33:02 PM

adultswim
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Vault 7 stuff. On my phone so I can't post quotes but here's another heaping pile of proof that our government is not to be trusted, ever.

https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/

Here's one though

"The attack against Samsung smart TVs was developed in cooperation with the United Kingdom's MI5/BTSS. After infestation, Weeping Angel places the target TV in a 'Fake-Off' mode, so that the owner falsely believes the TV is off when it is on. In 'Fake-Off' mode the TV operates as a bug, recording conversations in the room and sending them over the Internet to a covert CIA server."

[Edited on March 7, 2017 at 10:42 AM. Reason : .]

3/7/2017 10:40:43 AM

Cherokee
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^The CIA spies on foreign adversaries so unless there's information in there about them wantonly using these tools to spy on Americans with no justifiable (FISA) reason, I see a tremendous disservice having been done by leaking this.

But I haven't read any of it yet. And I do agree that the government should always be questioned and bear the burden of proving it's acting in good faith.

3/7/2017 10:59:43 AM

NyM410
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Is that sarcasm? It's fairly certain that a degree of wanton surveillance is going on and has been en masse since 9/11 and likely earlier.

This release puts Trump in an awkward spot now that it's his government. He previously "loved WikiLeaks" of course but only after criticizing them harshly a few years back.

3/7/2017 11:02:54 AM

adultswim
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^^
Might want to read it first. They have their own NSA style database and can tap into nearly any device without leaving a fingerprint. They can even take control of smart cars (calling some recent "suicides" into question).

They've also repurposed foreign malware, used it, and changed the fingerprint to show it was used by someone else.

3/7/2017 11:10:21 AM

EMCE
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It puts Trump in an interesting position, indeed. It was/is widely believed in some circles that WikiLeaks is used as an arm of Russia. Viewing the situation under that lens makes sense if you accept that Russia's goal is to make the U.S. look like the world's corrupt bully. As for Trump, does he now decry the WikiLeaks that is attacking HIS intelligence community?

3/7/2017 11:10:43 AM

NyM410
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FWIW, this has been planned for a long time. I feel like I've seen WL promoting Vault7 for a year.

Already seeing some bonkers conspiracies about this hurting credibility of CIA for when it releases Trump/Russia stuff. One good conspiracy (Deep State vs Trump) deserves another I guess though.

3/7/2017 11:15:05 AM

adultswim
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The fingerprint manipulation does call the Russian hack thing into question, though. You literally can't trust anything they say.

3/7/2017 11:17:51 AM

Shrike
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CIA playing the loooooong game. It was them who hacked the DNC and Podesta's emails so they could later frame a President Trump and Russia for colluding to do it!

3/7/2017 11:22:11 AM

NyM410
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^^ that seems to be a pretty basic thing that most advanced intelligence agencies would have the ability to do, no?

** zerohedge is already using that exact thought I see, though

[Edited on March 7, 2017 at 11:26 AM. Reason : X]

3/7/2017 11:25:34 AM

adultswim
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So why did anyone trust them in the first place? It's ridiculous to believe anything the CIA/FBI/NSA says. When will we learn?

3/7/2017 11:37:15 AM

thegoodlife3
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so we shouldn't have intelligence agencies?

3/7/2017 11:52:25 AM

NyM410
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I would say skepticism is good but outright denial of anything they say is bad.

This is an issue I have with the far left for sure.

[Edited on March 7, 2017 at 11:56 AM. Reason : I understand it's a thin line to tread as well]

3/7/2017 11:56:16 AM

adultswim
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^^
Clearly didn't say that, but remind me how JFK felt about the CIA.

^
How do you decide what to believe and what not to believe? I'm not saying deny everything, just don't treat it as singular proof.

[Edited on March 7, 2017 at 12:06 PM. Reason : .]

3/7/2017 12:02:11 PM

Cherokee
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Quote :
"Is that sarcasm? It's fairly certain that a degree of wanton surveillance is going on and has been en masse since 9/11 and likely earlier."


Not sarcasm, just trying to be levelheaded is all. I'm not saying you're wrong but I haven't really seen too much other than the occasional complaints about companies like Google being asked to provide some records. And then, of course, the Snowden NSA revelations.

Do you have anything else you can link me to?

Quote :
"They have their own NSA style database and can tap into nearly any device without leaving a fingerprint. They can even take control of smart cars (calling some recent "suicides" into question).

They've also repurposed foreign malware, used it, and changed the fingerprint to show it was used by someone else."


So the smart car thing is an interesting topic. There was a journalist who died in a high speed automobile accident that was doing some sort of investigation. Name was Michael Hastings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)

The manipulations/repurposing honestly doesn't bother me at all - I'd expect them to do things like that when spying overseas. Things like that in and of themselves don't constitute anything nefarious to me. And the database doesn't necessarily bother me either. The real issues comes down to whether they are abusing their tools and that's where oversight is necessary (and also why I believe the burden of proof should fall on them to prove they aren't abusing it). Though, in many situations, proving a negative is difficult. With the NSA, for example, they were asked to prove Snowden didn't report his concerns through the chain of command. They, of course, couldn't produce emails (aside from a very questionable one) which to them proved he never did. But then the counterargument is "how do we know you didn't delete them?"

Quote :
"As for Trump, does he now decry the WikiLeaks that is attacking HIS intelligence community?"


Trump absolutely welcomes this (just the same as he welcomed and invited Russia to continue hacking into the DNC and Hillary Clinton's emails). This is the type of shit that makes people more inclined to believe his bullshit when he says Obama wiretapped him (keep in mind this is a guy who misspelled "tap" in his tweets).

Quote :
"The fingerprint manipulation does call the Russian hack thing into question, though. You literally can't trust anything they say."


Why would the CIA hack the DNC, make Trump president and then fight with him over Russia and all the other nonsense?

Quote :
"I understand it's a thin line to tread as well"


I actually think the issue isn't that it's a thin line, it's that it's a line that constantly shifts position based on world circumstances.

3/7/2017 12:08:30 PM

adultswim
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"Why would the CIA hack the DNC, make Trump president and then fight with him over Russia and all the other nonsense?"


Idk, why would they set up a brothel in San Francisco and dose patrons with LSD?

Joking, but really, who knows?

[Edited on March 7, 2017 at 12:17 PM. Reason : .]

3/7/2017 12:15:26 PM

Cherokee
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^Research. I mean, absolutely terrible research. But research.

But the Russian/DNC stuff is circular and makes no sense. They create their own problem to then have to battle it, knowing the public is already suspicious of them to begin with?

BTW - Regarding Russia leaning on Wikileaks, makes sense they would release all these tools that theoretically would be used against Russia, doesn't it?

I don't want to go so far as to say Wikileaks needs to be shut down but I'm growing concerned about what they choose (and the emphasis is on the word choose) to release.

3/7/2017 12:18:20 PM

adultswim
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The CIA hacking the DNC isn't the only option. They also could have manipulated the evidence they acquired to point to Russia.

But I'm not putting any stock into this or any other theory until there is substantial proof.

[Edited on March 7, 2017 at 12:25 PM. Reason : .]

3/7/2017 12:24:44 PM

Cherokee
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^It's a wild action.

Then again, so is randomly dosing people with LSD.

3/7/2017 12:26:00 PM

eleusis
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"Viewing the situation under that lens makes sense if you accept that Russia's goal is to make the U.S. look like the world's corrupt bully."


what lens do you have to look through to not see the US in that manner? We've even developed military plans for fucking up internet message boards with state-sponsored meme generation.

How fucking pissed is everyone going to be when they find out the CIA hacked the DNC, memed Trump into office, and then manipulated digital fingerprints so that they could blame it all on the Russians?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2lDbvQP0WMnbHVMTDVPdjNzVGs/view

3/7/2017 12:55:32 PM

Cherokee
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Literally makes no sense.

3/7/2017 1:05:23 PM

adultswim
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^
Maybe they want Pence (or someone else, but lost the VP bid).

3/7/2017 1:46:21 PM

Cherokee
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All I can really say to that is it is very dangerous to come up with a theory and then start looking for evidence to support it (or even to refute it). What should happen is existing evidence should be analyzed in concert with historical concert after which you can reach a conclusion as to what has happened or is happening.

3/7/2017 2:04:03 PM

adultswim
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Yes, agree, but what evidence do we have for Russia hacking the DNC outside of unsubstantiated IC claims?

I'm just showing that alternate scenarios exist, and we can't put all our eggs in one basket, yet.

[Edited on March 7, 2017 at 2:10 PM. Reason : .]

3/7/2017 2:09:38 PM

Cherokee
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^^second "concert" should be "context"

^gotcha

3/7/2017 2:12:24 PM

eleusis
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maybe it was a test run on their capabilities, and they needed low-probability events like Brexit, Trump, and Marine Le Pen to prove that their systems work and fine tune them for future events.

3/7/2017 2:16:00 PM

dtownral
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lol, the cia pepe'd trump into office because... profit?

3/7/2017 2:17:04 PM

NyM410
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Epic long game.

To answer a question from a few hours ago on how to determine when to take at face value and when to not. When over a dozen agencies say the same thing I tend to think there is something to it. That's not to say it is certain. But it is likely.

The crazy thing is that a segment of the far left still outright dismisses it for some reason even though half of Trump's team, including Trump himself, has demonstrably lied about contact with Russia (and yes, some of the contact is absolutely within job scopes). Again, it may all be coincidence but if you look at the preponderance of evidence I'm not sure how there is more to support wild out there CIA-did-it theories versus Russia did it.

[Edited on March 7, 2017 at 2:23 PM. Reason : X]

3/7/2017 2:22:46 PM

Cherokee
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkjG2LQx8oE&list=FLB7Ufh9XPvgqWMFKmeK_HPQ&index=16

Watching this is like listening to Trump and all of his advisors speak in public with lies, different stories and contradictions.

Except, this is Russia in 1999.

After a while, I actually started laughing every time I heard the word "sugar."

[Edited on March 7, 2017 at 2:43 PM. Reason : a]

3/7/2017 2:32:30 PM

adultswim
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^^
The "17 Intelligencies Agencies" thing was a statement from the head of the USIC, which includes the Dept. of Energy, the Coast Guard, etc. It's just another manipulation tactic. Clapper and Comey have both gone on record after that statement saying there isn't enough evidence. And then changed their minds again, I think?

I don't like Trump. I also don't like propaganda and disinformation.

3/7/2017 2:40:33 PM

moron
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Quote :
"Yes, agree, but what evidence do we have for Russia hacking the DNC outside of unsubstantiated IC claims?

I'm just showing that alternate scenarios exist, and we can't put all our eggs in one basket, yet.
"


The publicly released docs on the phishing attack on the DNC show they were accessed by an entity targetting russia's "enemies".

I'm not sure why these revelations, unless I've missed something, are so shocking though. We know the CIA/NSA/IC has been doing sketchy things to eavesdrop. When the Stuxnet stuff was made public, those techniques were considered old. People have been talking about hacking TVs/phones/whatever for years, Snowden famously put out a video showing how to eavesdrop-proof your phone.

As all this pertains to Russia-Trump, it doesn't really. Unless there's specific info the CIA is making all this up, we're still in a "wait-and-see" mode on how deeply Trump and Russia are really tied.

3/7/2017 3:40:42 PM

dtownral
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^^ clapper and comey reported to the intelligence committee that it was russian state actors that penetrated the emails, what they said they didn't have good evidence about was after that if they gave it to wikileaks only that this would have been consistent with their methods

3/7/2017 3:43:00 PM

JesusHChrist
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The burden of proof always falls on the person/entity making the claim. Not on the accused to disprove said claim.

Logic 101. Yo, Democrats are playing a dangerous game by reflexively trusting agencies that are specifically in the industry of lies and coercion.

Do you guys not remember James Clapper infamously furrowing his brow and purgering himself in front of Congress? "Not wittingly" when asked about whether or not the NSA collects data on thousands of citizens?


Or Michael Hayden, who helped Dubya warrantlessly wiretap American citizens?


Look, the evidence may very well mount up against Trump, but don't let that be an excuse to stop practicing skepticism. The people in these agencies support coups and overthrow governments FOR A LIVING. Maybe we shouldn't straight up believe them without evidence.

3/7/2017 3:54:29 PM

dtownral
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i don't think trump hacked the dnc servers, i don't think he colluded with russia to hack the servers

i think that russia has a history of doing this kind of thing and it wouldn't be surprising if they did and intelligence agencies and private intelligence companies say the evidence supports this theory so i think it is likely the case that it was the russians. it could also be a non-affiliated group, or a non-affiliated group with russian connections.

what i think is pretty ridiculous, and supported by no one and no evidence, is the claim that the CIA did it to meme trump into office

3/7/2017 3:58:32 PM

TerdFerguson
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It's always good to have a healthy skepticism of the IC.

But instead of bitching about how shitty the CIA is there is an existing, somewhat effective solution.

CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT.

Seriously, if republicans grew spines and started loving this country more than tax cuts for the rich, they could start subpoenaing tomorrow, digging into reports, looking at classified data, and releasing as much as possible.

We shouldn't HAVE to trust the CIA if the GOP would do it's god damn job.

[Edited on March 7, 2017 at 4:04 PM. Reason : It's why I can't stand the CIA speculation, speculate on the complicity of congress]

3/7/2017 4:02:23 PM

adultswim
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On the topic of the new leaks...given how many people had/have access to these tools, I really wonder how many government officials are currently under blackmail.

3/7/2017 4:37:49 PM

dtownral
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^^ the worst speculation is trump, who instead of asking his administration or declassifying the warrant, makrs dangerous allegations based on something fucking mark levin said

3/7/2017 4:48:24 PM

TerdFerguson
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^i don't disagree. The layers of this onion keep multiplying with accusations flying everywhere. The only satisfactory solution I see is a special prosecutor (and even then those aren't always that satisfactory, but are still hella better than our current blame game).

3/7/2017 5:02:42 PM

NyM410
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https://twitter.com/cernovich/status/839257979673165824

Horseshoe theory strong

[Edited on March 7, 2017 at 9:07 PM. Reason : CIA hacked DNC and leaked will be mainstream rightwing media tmw... Breitbart already on it]

3/7/2017 9:00:02 PM

Cherokee
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^^completely with you - at this point an independent special prosecutor is warranted. Get to the bottom of it and move on. whether there is truth to it or not, we have a president who is lying and we have targets of investigations lying and then back peddling when caught.

and Nunes is a complete joke - the fact that he said "sometimes you take Trump literally" today utterly drove me insane. Of course we did - he LITERALLY tweeted that obama wiretapped him. There is no fucking misunderstanding here

3/7/2017 9:13:45 PM

Sayer
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Not saying the content of the leaks about the CIA programs isn't awful. It's awful.

However, the timing of the leak in the scope of what's currently happening in America with regards to Trump & Russia is too coincidental to ignore. Why now release information that has been squirreled away for months? Why pick right now to discredit the intelligence community in the eyes of the public?

This is a big fucking distraction designed to draw attention away from what we should be focused on. I'm not saying it's not credible information, and problems with the unchecked surveillance state most certainly need to be addressed, but this reeks of a desperation move to shift the focus of the world away from Trump and Russia.

3/7/2017 11:33:49 PM

ChadLee989
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Who cares what happen to bin laden's body? He is dead

3/7/2017 11:45:02 PM

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