http://money.cnn.com/2013/11/26/news/economy/milk-farm-bill/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Quote :

" A key sticking point holding up the bill is funding for food stamps. House Republicans want to make changes that would drop 3.8 million people from food stamps next year, while Senate Democrats aren't keen on making these cuts. But the clock is ticking on milk prices, too. That's because if Congress doesn't pass a farm bill by January, subsidies for dairy and other commodities will expire. And that will trigger a funding formula from the 1940s that could lead prices of several commodities like corn, soybeans and wheat to spike. "

Fuck it kill the bill. Sounds like a scare tactic if you ask me. Why should our government be spending money to subsidize inefficient farms that aren't turning a profit.

As far as the other side

Quote :

"with 15% of the population getting benefits, according to September federal data. T"

This is pretty ridiculous....

Quote :

"eliminate those who shouldn't be getting food stamps by closing loopholes that let "people whose monetary resources are above eligibility standards into the program," according to a memo from the Office of House Majority Leader Eric Cantor. A Senate version of the bill would save $4 billion from food stamps, with provisions aimed at ending fraud and abuse. "

I'm all for this.

In NC a 4-person family with a gross income up to $47,112 qualifies for food stamps with a benefit of $632. That is $158/week. I remember grocery shopping with my mom growing up and our weekly bill never came anywhere close to $158/week and we were a family of 4.

[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 9:21 AM. Reason : a]

11/26/2013 9:21:14 AM

Quote :

"In NC a 4-person family with a gross income up to $47,112 qualifies for food stamps with a benefit of $632."

...in addition to other requirements.

11/26/2013 9:37:46 AM

How dare you cut the social safety net. Fraud (and loopholes) doesn't really exist when it comes to handouts. You must be a conservative.

As far as farm subsidies go...I'm on the fence. I think we as a country have a vested interest in keeping as much food production in the US as we can. We already get too much beef from Brazil. Do you really want our milk coming from some other country? I'm not saying that ending farm subsidies would do this, but it wouldn't help the trend to outsource food production. But I'm not a fan of any kind of subsidies, which is why I'm on the fence about it.

11/26/2013 10:19:00 AM

There are some seriously epic reasons to subsidize farmers.

Not saying they haven't gone to far, but still.

Well, partly ^.

[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 10:26 AM. Reason : ]

11/26/2013 10:25:29 AM

^^ why do you hate capitalism and free markets?

[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 10:25 AM. Reason : and ^]

11/26/2013 10:25:38 AM

I wonder how grocery stores will feel when a chunk of their consumers don't have money to blow on food items.

11/26/2013 10:36:17 AM

You know I don't hate capitalism, and I don't think I've ever in this forum blindly supported everything capitalism stands for. I certainly don't support the free market if it means we'll be getting our milk and eggs from China. Shit we'll already be getting a lot of our pork from a Chinese company now.

Why does it always have to be black and white...there's grey area too.

Why do we subsidize farmers? Lets see, that combine that harvests soy, wheat, and any number of other crops, costs a farmer a good $300k, and that doesn't even include the heads, of which they may need several if they are doing different crops. Many of the tractors they use cost 10's of thousands. There's no way farmers could recoup their costs. I realize that some farmers utilize co-ops where they share farm equipment, but even then, splitting 400k 4 ways is still a mortgage payment.

I much prefer subsidizing farmers over some of my family, who are only good for producing piss and wind.

11/26/2013 10:39:54 AM

Did you know that we pay some farmers to not do anything with their fields, and that many farm subsidies are not contingent on wealth or income so rich hobby ranchers and farm owners can even benefit from them?

Farm subsidies include a whole range of things, only a few of them are crop insurance and loans.

11/26/2013 10:47:47 AM

Quote :

"I certainly don't support the free market if it means we'll be getting our milk and eggs from China."

A lot of people don't buy the bottom-shelf eggs already. The same often goes for milk. As opposed to buying lower quality milk, some people just opt to get milk alternatives because they're not as finicky of a product.

If you don't believe that people should have the right to decide on their own what quality of product to buy, then your political views are truly loathsome to me. If that wasn't bad enough, you don't like food staps. So let me summarize your views:

1. Poor people shouldn't get food assistance
2. We should force these poor people to buy the type of food you prefer, because the other options are just gross

This is an indirect wealth transfer from the poor to the middle class that you are in favor of. This is why government "assistance" isn't really assistance. The whole system is subjugation.

11/26/2013 10:54:41 AM

Quote :

"If you don't believe that people should have the right to decide on their own what quality of product to buy, then your political views are truly loathsome to me. If that wasn't bad enough, you don't like food staps. So let me summarize your views:"

Where in the world do you get that from "I certainly don't support the free market if it means we'll be getting our milk and eggs from China."?

If you want to buy milk and eggs over the internet directly from some other country then feel free to do so. Or, you can go to the local Whole Foods and buy your grain fed, free range chicken eggs. I'm just saying we need to keep production of those things local. Almost as a form of national defense.

And no where, NO WHERE have I said that poor people shouldn't get assistance. I just think trimming the roles to people who really need that assistance is a good thing.

And dt...why do arguments such as these always go back to the rich lobbyists? I mean you guys keep these evil rich folks in your back pocket to bring out in any argument. I'm sure there are rich rancher lobbyists up there in DC who want these subsidies for nothing more than getting richer. But there are a lot of small farmers that use them too. However paying for non-production of crops...another thing I'm on the fence about. I understand why they do it, but why not pay the farmer to produce something that the government deems not market ready, then give them to folks who need them? I guess soy wouldn't be a good example since most of the soy we grow goes into oil, wax, milk, etc.

11/26/2013 11:09:00 AM

Oh right the Internet. Poor people can use the Internet!

11/26/2013 11:13:26 AM

you're angry about things that don't reflect the realities of farm subsidies, its hard to argue because you are so off base with reality that its tough to know where to start

11/26/2013 11:14:15 AM

Do you even know what I'm responding to there? mrfrog was saying I'm trying to limit free choice. I don't understand where he's getting that from my argument, unless he's thinking that if we can import milk and eggs, it would somehow be super cheap so poor folks can buy them, but I don't think that was where he was going.

1. Keep production of essential food sources within the continental US.
2. Subsidize that production so its cheap enough for your "poor people" to continue purchasing them. Sure, evil rich rancher guy will still get his, but the subsidies would be needed to keep production in-house.
3. Give food stamps to those who need them.

Why am I being demonized here?

Then educate me on the realities, since I'm so stupid. And don't tell me to go to wikipedia. I want to know what your view of reality is.

[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 11:20 AM. Reason : lkajsdf]

11/26/2013 11:19:30 AM

to start: subsidies make poor people unable to afford food, not the other way around. they hurt the poor.

and as a related very important problem with your position: farmers are better off than non-farmers by about 10%, and receive about 16% of their income directly from the government. that's right, you are concerned about protecting poor helpless farmers and cutting aid to poor non-farmers despite the fact that farm incomes are 10% higher than non-farm incomes.

[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 11:28 AM. Reason : .]

11/26/2013 11:20:48 AM

Quote :

"why do arguments such as these always go back to the rich lobbyists? I mean you guys keep these evil rich folks in your back pocket to bring out in any argument."

I was extremely specific using the term "middle class" in my comment. There was no ambiguity about the middle class subjugating the poor through such an agenda.

In other words, you. You should personally take offense at my comments. You are the privileged lobbyist advancing policies that make it hard for the working poor to put food on the table.

11/26/2013 11:27:03 AM

Ok

Come back to that comment when milk is $7/gallon. You'll find somebody else to blame then. And I don't know who you consider middle class, but I sure as hell can't afford milk if it is $7/gallon. Maybe the media is using high prices at the grocery store as a scare tactic, but I really don't want to find out.

And my comment about the rich lobbyist in the back pocket was directed at dt, not you.

11/26/2013 11:36:13 AM

wow, i had no idea you were a liberal. i thought you were a conservative. you are supposed to believe that subsidies are a barrier to entry, its why farmers are all so old. new people can't gather enough capital to enter farming because the already established farmers are receiving subsidies that artificially increase the costs to start farming. you are really okay with the government determining prices and saying how much milk the industry is allowed to produce? i'm pretty surprised by this 180 degree change.

we have subsidies to protect milk prices from falling like they have in the past, they are designed to prop up milk prices not keep them down

(and you've fallen the industry marketing if you think milk is something that you need and is something that is good for you)

[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 11:43 AM. Reason : don'y have to go far to look at milk prices, just go back to 2009]

11/26/2013 11:42:51 AM

if the government were out of the milk business, what would a gallon cost?

11/26/2013 12:23:33 PM

At what point in time?

11/26/2013 12:27:05 PM

in 12 minutes from now

11/26/2013 12:27:20 PM

How much do a few cows cost?

11/26/2013 12:28:02 PM

Quote :

"if the government were out of the milk business, what would a gallon cost?"

Quote :

"in 12 minutes from now"

it would depend on how smoothly subsidies were ended, if they were just immediately cut you would see prices increase in the short term possibly to around $7/gallon. If they were tapered prices would drop. Eventually prices would drop either way.


The Illogic of Farm Subsidies, and Other Agricultural Truths
http://freakonomics.com/2008/07/24/the-illogic-of-farm-subsidies-and-other-agricultural-truths/

Quote :

"Q: How much would a gallon of milk cost tomorrow, in Chicago, if the dairy subsidies were eliminated today? A: These days the trade barriers that raise the overall price of dairy products are no longer binding. The government does run a pricing scheme that inflates the price of drinking milk (and reduced the price of cheese and other processed products). The net effect on a gallon of milk at retail in the Chicago market is probably in the range of 20 cents or so. Joe Balagtas has looked at that question and one place to see some of his work is here."

Milking Consumers and Taxpayers
The Folly of US Dairy Policy
by Joseph V. Balagtas
http://www.aei.org/files/2011/07/15/Final-Balagtas.pdf

United States' Agricultural Systems: An Overview of U.S. Dairy Policy
http://aic.ucdavis.edu/research1/DairyEncyclopedia_policy.pdf

[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 1:04 PM. Reason : /quote]

11/26/2013 12:51:21 PM

But how much does a barn cost?

11/26/2013 1:14:08 PM

What does the fox say?

11/26/2013 1:14:34 PM

If we mined the moon for cheese, could that be turned back into milk?

11/26/2013 1:15:23 PM

more arguments for a robust space program.

11/26/2013 1:35:06 PM

Odd arguments. As the government spends every bit of its time trying to keep milk prices high (setting up a cartel, buying up surplus milk, preventing retailers from competing on price, etc), it is safe to say if the regime was ended, milk prices would fall.

The argument in favor of the regime is that a fixed floor which is artificially set too high stabilizes prices and prevents the occasional blip of prices higher than the floor. But no can seriously argue a price floor keeps prices lower than they otherwise would be.

11/26/2013 3:30:31 PM

Milk sucks anyways.

Almond milk for the winz!

11/26/2013 4:52:26 PM

Milk really is terrible, you should really not drink milk

11/26/2013 4:54:17 PM

Almond milk and orange juice with vitamin D.

11/26/2013 5:41:12 PM

Orange juice is waaay worse than milk, its about the worst thing you can drink. A lot of sodas are better than OJ.

11/26/2013 6:48:48 PM

almond milk isn't milk its juice. and its gross as hell

11/26/2013 6:50:37 PM

I'm drinking it bitch

^^ also that is a retarded thing to say.

[Edited on November 26, 2013 at 7:01 PM. Reason : Re]

11/26/2013 7:00:40 PM

^^^I agree.

If you've ever read how OJ in this country is produced, its actually pretty gross. Most of the OJ you drink is at least 1 year old before it even hits your fridge. To preserve the OJ, they do something like remove the oxygen from it, which also removes pretty much any taste and the orange color we come to expect from OJ. Then just before packaging, they add flavor and color back to it. The flavor and color is derived from orange peel and citric acid.

11/26/2013 7:59:57 PM

The problem with farm subsidies is we subsidize the wrong products, mainly corn Cause everybody loves high fructose corn syrup.

[Edited on November 28, 2013 at 7:27 PM. Reason : -]

11/28/2013 7:26:45 PM

HUR, regarding your anecdote about grocery-shopping with your mom growing up: How old are you? I think you're not quite old enough to have seen 5¢ 12oz. Coke bottles but still...

11/28/2013 10:11:05 PM

^^ the main problem is that it is a series of price floors designed to protect people who are already better off than the poor people it hurts

11/29/2013 1:11:02 PM

milk here is delicious. it's not cheaper because China like other food tho. no telling what they put in it...but it's good as hell.

11/30/2013 5:13:23 AM

The main flavoring is bird flu.

11/30/2013 11:03:26 AM

Quote :

"HUR, regarding your anecdote about grocery-shopping with your mom growing up: How old are you? I think you're not quite old enough to have seen 5¢ 12oz. Coke bottles but still... "

28

12/1/2013 10:43:06 PM

So the last time who went grocery shopping with your mom was 1995?

12/2/2013 9:26:27 AM

must have been '92 lol

12/2/2013 3:53:50 PM

Personally I fully accept our farm subsidy system is bastardized and nearing the point of unworkable.


That being said, I still see the value in certain government subsidies, mostly The realm of conservation payouts. After all without some subsidy we may have not been able to "defeat" the dust bowl and it's environmental factors ( cost share planted hundreds of thousands of acres of windbreaks across the Midwest/Great Plains, significantly reducing the effect of the dust bowl)

That being said our current system of insurance deserves a good hard look by congress, I'm just not holding my breath given how much the establishments from both parties support the status quo.

12/3/2013 10:57:44 PM