http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11008001/sec-ponders-potential-move-division-iv-ncaa-provide-autonomy

6/1/2014 2:49:02 PM

This will eventually end in massive lawsuits.

6/1/2014 3:03:49 PM

^It will eventually end in all of the big schools running pro teams and giving whatever they want to their athletes.

6/2/2014 1:05:58 AM

^ if that happens, the athletics department at N.C. State should completely separate from the university and just become "Raleigh Sports Club"

6/2/2014 6:14:37 AM

I can't help but feel like college football and basketball is not too far away from being ruined.

6/2/2014 6:34:14 AM

I welcome the separation of the big teams. I hope they end up trying to still maintain the "student athlete" illusion, and then collapse and bring ESPN down with them. Why care about NC State's big money comedy of errors when we have perfectly good NFL, NBA, and NHL teams around that make no illusions of being a big business. And sometimes they actually win stuff.

6/2/2014 7:52:34 AM

The only way any of this ends for college sports is badly. Whether it's Division IV, unions, paying players, concussion in football, etc.

Enjoy it while you still have it, because the only sure thing is that it isn't guaranteed to be here in the long run.

6/2/2014 8:41:23 AM

Nothing is ever good enough anymore. If you give someone what they ask for, they're gonna eventually ask for more. The sense of entitlement sucks. Free college education, free meals, free place to stay...all for 4 years. Nope, gotta have more. Gotta be able to eat MORE, gotta pay me. "I'm Not Gettin MINES!"

These athletes want to get paid because most of them don't give two shits about their degree. They don't want to go out in the world and become productive members of society. They either want to play ball or do nothing. Screw these assholes.

6/2/2014 12:10:47 PM

I feel like the numbering is going in the opposite direction...shouldn't it be Division 0?

6/2/2014 12:23:11 PM

yes

6/2/2014 12:46:07 PM

Quote :

"Nothing is ever good enough anymore. If you give someone what they ask for, they're gonna eventually ask for more. The sense of entitlement sucks. Free college education, free meals, free place to stay...all for 4 years. Nope, gotta have more. Gotta be able to eat MORE, gotta pay me. "I'm Not Gettin MINES!" These athletes want to get paid because most of them don't give two shits about their degree. They don't want to go out in the world and become productive members of society. They either want to play ball or do nothing. Screw these assholes."

Sense of entitlement? You mean the sense that someone in the prime of their earnings potential should be prevented from earning a portion of the money that they make for an organization? You know...the whole reason why people don't work anywhere for free?

Why the flipping fuck should someone who wants to be an athlete be obligated to earn a degree and waste college resources? Why do those wanting to pursue the career of athlete somehow need to pretend to be doing something else? There's literally no other career that makes you do that. No one wanting to be a plumber is forced to go sit in Sociology classes in a liberal arts school til they're 20 "just because." Playing sports doesn't require a degree, and if they want one, they can get it later. They should be allowed to ply their trade in the prime of their physical health however they see fit, and if a university wants to give them that chance, they should be compensated like any other person who makes money for an organization.

In other words: why do YOU feel entitled for skilled athletes to be a part of your "college athletics" and "student athlete" delusions?

We should have the same system for our sports that hockey does in Canada or baseball does here. There's no reason why a university should be a de facto minor league. It's insane.

[Edited on June 2, 2014 at 12:55 PM. Reason : c]

6/2/2014 12:53:59 PM

I sure hope wolfpack2105 goes to classrooms on a regular basis to cheer his ass off for those students

6/2/2014 1:00:42 PM

Quote :

"Why the flipping fuck should someone who wants to be an athlete be obligated to earn a degree and waste college resources?"

I agree. Let's completely dissolve N.C. State athletics beyond the club sport level and these kids that don't want a degree no longer get a scholarship for university. They can instead play minor league football at Method Road for Raleigh Sports Club in front of 300 people because who gives a shit about these players if it's not N.C. State? For the 98% not good enough for the NFL or the CFL or the Arena league, they've got their high school diploma to fall back on. If people want the minor leagues, give them the minor leagues.

[Edited on June 2, 2014 at 1:12 PM. Reason : /]

6/2/2014 1:09:49 PM

Quote :

"Sense of entitlement? You mean the sense that someone in the prime of their earnings potential should be prevented from earning a portion of the money that they make for an organization? You know...the whole reason why people don't work anywhere for free?"

Every single NCAA athlete signs a form saying they will play by the rules off the court/field. It is voluntary. If athletes feel the NCAA arrangement is not fair, then by all means, they do not have to sign up. Fight the good fight by all means to get reform, but signing something voluntary and then complaining about the terms or the punishment afterward is not intelligent. Hypothetically, 95% of college athletes, even if you assume are entitled to play for $, are paid their market value with education/room/board/meals/travel because 5% or less go pro. When you factor in the fact that 80% are broke 2 years after being lucky enough to go pro, it strengthens the case for education IMO.

Quote :

"Why the flipping fuck should someone who wants to be an athlete be obligated to earn a degree and waste college resources? Why do those wanting to pursue the career of athlete somehow need to pretend to be doing something else? There's literally no other career that makes you do that. No one wanting to be a plumber is forced to go sit in Sociology classes in a liberal arts school til they're 20 "just because." Playing sports doesn't require a degree, and if they want one, they can get it later. They should be allowed to ply their trade in the prime of their physical health however they see fit, and if a university wants to give them that chance, they should be compensated like any other person who makes money for an organization."

Butch unfortunately a lot of your players didn't go pro and are having to deal with those consequences (i.e. Michael MacAdoo, Deunta Williams). Sure, they were morons for thinking they were all going pro but the adults in the room shouldn't have contributed to this, the real delusion


[Edited on June 2, 2014 at 3:55 PM. Reason : .]

6/2/2014 3:49:38 PM

The only entitlement I see in this situation are the people who can't look past the economics of the situation and who feel ENTITLED to Saturday College Football and tailgating, because that's what's at the root of people arguing to keep this irrational system.

Pro sports can fill that hole just as well as anything.

The system used in hockey and baseball should apply to all sports. The NCAA FBS schools should not bear the brunt of subsidizing the NFL's minor league.

Quote :

"Butch unfortunately a lot of your players didn't go pro and are having to deal with those consequences (i.e. Michael MacAdoo, Deunta Williams). Sure, they were morons for thinking they were all going pro but the adults in the room shouldn't have contributed to this, the real delusion"

They are grown fucking adults. If they fail in sports, they can easily go back to school. My cousin went straight to the Minors after high school. After getting cut by the Cardinals after 3 years, he went back to school and earned his degree. Funny how that works. If McAdoo fucks up, he can solve that himself. There's another thing people feel entitled to: college being the party that happens in those years from 18-22.

[Edited on June 2, 2014 at 4:50 PM. Reason : x]

6/2/2014 4:48:31 PM

Quote :

"the people who can't look past the economics of the situation and who feel ENTITLED to Saturday College Football and tailgatin"

one teeny tiny problem with this - the people you're referring to are the people paying to support that system through ticket sales, donations, TV subscriptions (generating ad revenue and the like), and merchandise sales. it's the product they're paying for, "entitled" implies expecting something for free.

6/2/2014 5:05:35 PM

If FBS football ceased to be, there would be bloody riots in some college towns. It's a concept and way of life to these people.

And if not for the people playing the game, your money wouldn't be spent. How much money did you spend on tickets for Men's Tennis last year? How much would you spend on NC State crap if we were DIII?

6/2/2014 5:30:10 PM

Quote :

"If FBS football ceased to be, there would be bloody riots in some college towns. It's a concept and way of life to these people. "

Yeah, we saw that at Penn State.

But if people want FBS football to disappear and be replaced by the minor leagues, they're not allowed to complain when it happens. I already follow N.C. State now less than I ever have due to Swofford pushing through a merger with the Big East. If what is N.C. State football or basketball ceases to exist or the already bare connection the programs have to the university become thinner, I'd have less reason.

Quote :

"How much money did you spend on tickets for Men's Tennis last year?"

N.C. State Rugby, a club sport that gets little to no help from the university, in 2012 and 2013 competed at the Collegiate Rugby Championship in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. (They did not compete in the tournament this past weekend.) This is the largest exposure their rugby program can get, seeing as they receive no money from the athletics department, because the tournament is broadcast on NBC and NBC Sports. As part of their participation they were required to buy 500 tickets regardless of if they could sell them or not, and had to on top of that also raise money to pay for the 12 players' travel to Philadelphia and back. This so they could compete in a national tournament and be on TV. But you know what they did to raise the money? The players woke up bright and early and cleaned out horse stables for months at the State Fairgrounds. It was something like a dollar or two per stable I think. That is real amateur athletics.

I don't feel sorry for the tennis team having to find funding, or any other sport on campus being required to pay their own bills. If rugby can do it, a sport with zero help from the athletics administration at the campus, is much less popular in this country, and likely less of an alumni booster base, so can they. Heck, the largesse tied to football and basketball would be curtailed positively if they were required to break even on a balance sheet as opposed to disappearing into a black hole of expense.

[Edited on June 2, 2014 at 7:07 PM. Reason : .]

6/2/2014 6:46:45 PM

so one of the biggest reasons people watch college athletics is because players aren't compensated?

and those same people wouldn't watch at all if the current system is blown up?

6/2/2014 7:07:02 PM

Quote :

"so one of the biggest reasons people watch college athletics is because players aren't compensated? and those same people wouldn't watch at all if the current system is blown up?"

I watch college athletics to support my alma mater. If it's not my alma mater, there's in reality zero difference between State, Carolina, Duke, and ECU for the teams I'm watching. Minor league football is not my alma mater. I watch N.C. State, not Raleigh. If people watched sports purely for the quality of the competition, the CFL would have a far larger fanbase in this country than college football, ditto the D-League in comparison to college basketball.

[Edited on June 2, 2014 at 7:14 PM. Reason : .]

6/2/2014 7:09:48 PM

I'm still not seeing how any of that changes if TJ Warren is allowed to make money off of his name or receive some sort of a living wage

and I'm pretty sure you'd still be able to support your alma mater, which would also support the athletes playing for said alma mater

[Edited on June 2, 2014 at 7:23 PM. Reason : .]

6/2/2014 7:18:30 PM

Student athletes should be able to make the same stipend that Graduate Assistant's make.

Schools pay students to help them make money academically, why not athletically?

6/2/2014 7:34:43 PM

Yea, a 100k+ full scholarship isn't enough for these gods of the gridiron.

6/2/2014 8:02:45 PM

Steve Logan's voucher system would fix everything. I'm not sure why people don't give it more credence.

Athelete decides to play for Carolina.

Gets a voucher from Carolina for education (each school can decide their own amount)

player can go to class while he competes or not. His choice


would be treated like a regular student... Do away with requirements. If he fails out he fails out. His choice to take advantage or not.

no more red shirts.


still gives the kids a chance to get an education as repayment. Lets them come or go as they see fit. removes the need for athletes to pretend their students. Eliminates situations like UNC where there is massive cover ups of stuff just to keep players eligible.


voucher never expires. Can come back later in life and use it to get a degree if sports doesn't work out.

6/2/2014 8:50:58 PM

These ballers could always go play in Europe and then enter the draft

At least basketball players

6/2/2014 8:54:36 PM

^The problem is it is better for their long term goals to play in the NCAA without pay. I have no clue who is playing in Europe, but each season I could tell you where some of the future top draft picks are playing in college. The stars of the power conference teams are on tv all of the time. When they go pro then they can get their name put on shoes right away and people will buy them. That isn't the case with someone who played in Europe first.

[Edited on June 2, 2014 at 9:46 PM. Reason : .]

6/2/2014 9:45:27 PM

Quote :

"Why the flipping fuck should someone who wants to be an athlete be obligated to earn a degree and waste college resources? Why do those wanting to pursue the career of athlete somehow need to pretend to be doing something else? There's literally no other career that makes you do that. No one wanting to be a plumber is forced to go sit in Sociology classes in a liberal arts school til they're 20 "just because." Playing sports doesn't require a degree, and if they want one, they can get it later. They should be allowed to ply their trade in the prime of their physical health however they see fit, and if a university wants to give them that chance, they should be compensated like any other person who makes money for an organization. "

Plenty of careers require a college degree. If a person doesn't feel like playing a college is fair, there's plenty of minor league teams around that need players too.

6/2/2014 9:47:46 PM

Quote :

"Steve Logan"

has never said a smart thing in his life. it's no wonder he washed out of coaching

fuck a kid who doesn't think all the shit a full ride comes with isn't enough.

oh what's that you say, Napier? you go to bed hungry? what are you doing with the ~$150 a week you have in pell grants? you could get a fucking papa john's pizza every goddamn night and still have enough left over for a night at the bar with that. not to mention all the fucking food you get at team tables.

[Edited on June 2, 2014 at 10:07 PM. Reason : .]

6/2/2014 10:04:43 PM

Quote :

"it is better for their long term goals to play in the NCAA without pay. I have no clue who is playing in Europe, but each season I could tell you where some of the future top draft picks are playing in college."

Pro scouts know who is playing in Europe, especially if they pull a Brandon Jennings. Playing one year in college isn't going to help you make an extra 20 million on your second contract. And I think you're severely overestimating how many players get their own sneakers.

In other words, playing in college doesn't do anything for your long term goals compared to playing overseas, except maybe gives you a better chance to be a college announcer when you retire like Jay Williams.

6/2/2014 10:09:45 PM

Quote :

"what are you doing with the ~$150 a week you have in pell grants? you could get a fucking papa john's pizza every goddamn night and still have enough left over for a night at the bar with that"

Either I'm not good enough friends with other bartenders, am getting ripped off by papa johns, or i drink too much when i do go out

6/2/2014 10:26:59 PM

Quote :

"Pro scouts know who is playing in Europe, especially if they pull a Brandon Jennings. Playing one year in college isn't going to help you make an extra 20 million on your second contract. And I think you're severely overestimating how many players get their own sneakers. In other words, playing in college doesn't do anything for your long term goals compared to playing overseas, except maybe gives you a better chance to be a college announcer when you retire like Jay Williams."

My point is you are more known to casual basketball fans in America, if you play in the NCAA and are good. That can only help with marketing yourself. About 10 years ago there was a high recruit named OJ Mayo who called Tim Floyd at USC and said he wanted to play his one year there, so he could become well known in LA and hopefully become the greatest USC player ever. He didn't want to go to UCLA because he knew no one would ever consider him the best. I don't know if he is still playing, but that is a pretty good plan if you turn out to be the next super star in a year, or two.

6/2/2014 10:43:07 PM

if you're a superstar it doesn't matter what you did before the NBA

see: Kobe, Lebron, etc

but again, kids fresh out of high school can currently go make money playing basketball overseas for a year before the draft

[Edited on June 2, 2014 at 10:48 PM. Reason : .]

6/2/2014 10:48:10 PM

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2013/05/07/ncaa-finances-subsidies/2142443/

Quote :

"Just 23 of 228 athletics departments at NCAA Division I public schools generated enough money on their own to cover their expenses in 2012. "

Schools are cutting sports and programs, where the hell is the money going to come from?

I get mail at least once a month from NCSU wanting money.

6/2/2014 11:15:33 PM

From that article:

Quote :

"Athletics departments getting subsidy money when they are self-sufficient "raises a major question about institutions, which are always trying to play catch-up in the athletic realm, relying on institutional and government subsidies and student fees to make ends meet at a time when we have very limited resources," says Anne D. Neal, president of the American Council of Trustees and Alumni. "And that raises questions as to whether institutions are paying attention to their primary purpose, which is education.""

This.

I'm dangerously close to the point where I want to see major college sports crash and burn because of the academic institutions who seem more interested in becoming sports clubs than centers of academic excellence.

When did the paradigm shift from "We'll let you come to school and get a degree, but we need you to play sports for us" to "We need you to come to school and play sports for us, but you've gotta pretend you want a degree."

The athletes are just a culpable. No, not a majority of them, just the ones at the top that matter. Most of them don't even want a degree. They want their picture on the cover of the next EA game, and a shoe deal.

You know what I do if I want to watch a bunch of entitled, me-first, money grubbing douchebags play games with each other? I watch pro sports.

The farce that is the current college football and basketball system needs to end.

[Edited on June 3, 2014 at 7:30 AM. Reason : .]

6/3/2014 7:29:51 AM

Quote :

"I can't help but feel like college football and basketball is not too far away from being ruined."

yeah, seriously

6/3/2014 7:46:28 AM

Quote :

"Most of them don't even want a degree."

I think that is not true at all. Some probably, most? no. I think that the few players at the top that make it or don't perpetuate that idea that all college athletes don't go to class and just think they are going pro. I think a lot more of them appreciate the opportunity and the degree than is believed. It is just a more visible/high profile minority that are clearly at school to just move on that makes this seem to be the case. If you were to survey all scholarship players in college football I'd bet the majority would be excited/appreciated about the opportunity for a degree, realizing that their journey ends at this level.

6/3/2014 9:49:54 AM

Quote :

"Steve Logan's voucher system would fix everything. I'm not sure why people don't give it more credence. Athelete decides to play for Carolina. Gets a voucher from Carolina for education (each school can decide their own amount) player can go to class while he competes or not. His choice"

This would pretty quickly result in a system where anyone who wants to have a legit shot at making it to the next level would realistically have no option but to not pursue an education.

Good luck trying to balance the demands of school and football while competing for a roster spot against another elite player who has zero obligations outside of the weight room and football.

6/3/2014 10:33:22 AM

Quote :

"If FBS football ceased to be, there would be bloody riots in some college towns. It's a concept and way of life to these people. And if not for the people playing the game, your money wouldn't be spent. How much money did you spend on tickets for Men's Tennis last year? How much would you spend on NC State crap if we were DIII?"

i didn't spend money on men's tennis because i don't care for men's tennis. football is one of my favorite sports, therefore i'm willing to spend money on it. state is my alma mater; i'd probably spend a good amount on merchandise anyway unless state didn't have football. i wouldn't riot if we lost it, but it would be disappointing.

also, specifically:

Quote :

"And if not for the people playing the game, your money wouldn't be spent"

um.. yea?

6/3/2014 11:04:46 AM

if all you are doing is giving someone a voucher that isn't mandatory, then why give a voucher at all? why not just not give a voucher and not have a connection to the school?

6/3/2014 11:05:58 AM

Quote :

"i wouldn't riot if we lost it, but it would be disappointing."

Come on, NC State, it's fanbase, and Raleigh are not even remotely close to what Wyld Stallyn is referring to.

Go tell an overzealous program and it's surrounding community like Auburn, Notre Dame, LSU, Ohio State, Alabama, or pretty much any football powerhouse in the Midwest that they are no longer allowed to have college football and I'm fairly certain we will never see you alive again.

6/3/2014 11:36:31 AM

Quote :

"You know what I do if I want to watch a bunch of entitled, me-first, money grubbing douchebags play games with each other? I watch pro sports. "

they take the money they're given. are you saying that you wouldn't accept a huge pay raise or any additional income offered for your endorsement?

those dudes work hard to stay in whatever league they're in

[Edited on June 3, 2014 at 11:56 AM. Reason : .]

6/3/2014 11:44:59 AM

My biggest issue is healthcare for athletes. I don't know the solution, but if an athlete is subject to, and experiences, life changing injuries while the college is exploiting them, for whatever gains, then something should be done for said athlete, be it short-term or life-long.

6/3/2014 12:44:19 PM

Will NC State make Division IV? Can we afford to pay our athletes?

6/3/2014 12:54:13 PM

Quote :

"I agree. Let's completely dissolve N.C. State athletics beyond the club sport level and these kids that don't want a degree no longer get a scholarship for university. They can instead play minor league football at Method Road for Raleigh Sports Club in front of 300 people because who gives a shit about these players if it's not N.C. State? For the 98% not good enough for the NFL or the CFL or the Arena league, they've got their high school diploma to fall back on. If people want the minor leagues, give them the minor leagues."

couldnt say it better. people forget that at least 98% of athletes dont go pro and that scholly-turned-degree is worth every second in the class and sacrifice made to be on the field as well... for the <2% that go on to make millions, whatever happened to our society as far as "paying your dues". I think a year or two of sacrifice is worth their future earnings. I'd only budge on the making money off of "name likeness" cause you EARN that in college. Hell the NCAA might be better off with that because they could hold onto more caliber players before they turn pro if they can make some keesh while in college. But to pay players to come play at college, no sir.

6/3/2014 3:15:16 PM

Quote :

"Schools are cutting sports and programs, where the hell is the money going to come from?"

In practice, from the sports and programs they cut. They still have to resolve Title IX regarding equivalence of educational opportunity (if you pay the football team "a living wage" as this is getting called, do you have to pay the women's soccer team to balance that out?), so I imagine more non-revenue men's sports will disappear because they can't cut women's. As a person said in a post above, few of these athletics departments make money, so what's going on is the basketball and football players want the money earmarked for softball given to them instead. If paying football players is necessary because of the money they generate, it's a reasonable assumption that sports are going to have to justify their existence going forward via all the income they generate from ticket sales/sponsorship/alumni donations. Which maybe that should happen anyway, but you're going to end up with a couple revenue sports and a much smaller number of non-revenue sports.

You're also going to have schools that realize they can hardly afford things now and say "fuck it, we're closing the program". Grambling football after what happened earlier this year is one of the first likely casualties there.

For a lot of these non-revenue sports, I can see the distinction between varsity status and club status either blurring or disappearing entirely, otherwise a lot of minor sports national championships at the college level could go away. From rugby, I know that 40 varsity programs is the magic number necessary to have the NCAA sponsor a national championship in that sport, with club teams not allowed to compete or be counted toward that number.

[Edited on June 4, 2014 at 8:12 AM. Reason : /]

6/4/2014 8:02:08 AM

Quote :

"This. I'm dangerously close to the point where I want to see major college sports crash and burn because of the academic institutions who seem more interested in becoming sports clubs than centers of academic excellence. When did the paradigm shift from "We'll let you come to school and get a degree, but we need you to play sports for us" to "We need you to come to school and play sports for us, but you've gotta pretend you want a degree." The athletes are just a culpable. No, not a majority of them, just the ones at the top that matter. Most of them don't even want a degree. They want their picture on the cover of the next EA game, and a shoe deal. You know what I do if I want to watch a bunch of entitled, me-first, money grubbing douchebags play games with each other? I watch pro sports. The farce that is the current college football and basketball system needs to end."

As silly as it sounds, sports has become a very important marketing/recruiting tool for universities. Good sports draws in great non-athletes. I just saw someone post not that long ago on pack pride that they watched the 1983 NC State vs Houston title game and it made them become a State fan, so when it came time to go to college they paid the out of state tuition because they wanted to go to NC State. I've also heard many stories about how schools have had an increase in applications the year after they won the national title in football (look at App State). So in the end it is way important to focus on sports. At NC State it is one of the last few fun things we seem to have left. They shut down the Brent Rd party, the Halloween Hike don't seem to be as big of a deal anymore, and I've heard the administration hates Greek life. We need a title soon!

6/8/2014 1:23:46 PM