Looks like GT2s go for the same, or even a little more than F360s, which has me thinking... I’m pretty sure I want the GT2 but I’ve kicked around the idea of the 360. It APPEARS the 360 maybe under braked. I’m not looking to modify either car much, the GT2 would almost certainly be flashed for a bit more power (right around low 500ish). Anyway, thoughts? Any other cars?

8/7/2014 1:30:34 AM

youve had so many porsches do something different

8/7/2014 1:55:29 AM

GT2 is no joke, and will outperform the 360, but seriously, when you have a Porsche, you are one in a thousand, but when you have a Ferrari, you are one in a million. A Ferrari is a Ferrari...

Go for the Ferrari.

8/7/2014 2:34:38 AM

I would expect that a GT2 would absolutely murder an F360, and you could prob flash t for even more power.

That said, a Ferrari is a Ferrari, like he ^ said. Unfortunately also, a Ferrari is a Ferrari. Routine maintenance will be silly expensive. F360s are a bargain these days; I have thought a couple times about buying one, but I can't stomach the ownership costs.

8/7/2014 3:41:39 AM

^^A GT2 is more rare than an F360. RWD, 3100lbs and 500ish horsepower? Winner winner.

8/7/2014 8:33:15 AM

A 360 is a ferrari but I don't really like it. I feel like I'd rather have a 355 . It just doesn't seem ferrari to me.

A gt2 is one of my favorite cars ever.

8/7/2014 9:30:58 AM

^^ Are there 500ish HP cars out there with FWD?

8/7/2014 10:17:07 AM

I think he means as opposed to AWD, like a Turbo for example.

8/7/2014 10:39:24 AM

Own the Ferrari for a year, sell it, buy GT2

8/7/2014 10:52:31 AM

^^ But isn't AWD considered "better" than just RWD?

[Edited on August 7, 2014 at 11:26 AM. Reason : ^ that's a solid plan]

8/7/2014 11:26:18 AM

Quote :

"^^A GT2 is more rare than an F360"

psst *360 modena* (preceded by f355, followed by f430)

sure it is, but it still looks like your 911. so, if you want something a lot more rare and unique (and beautiful) looking, you go for a ferrari.

having said that, the 360 modena is not a very good looking ferrari by ferrari standards... the f355 was ten times better looking.

of course, looking at power and performance, there is no competition. they both weigh the same but the porsche has 100 more hp, and is better built.

also depends on the transmission... i would personally go for the manual one, whichever one that happened to be.

8/7/2014 12:02:04 PM

Quote :

"^^ Are there 500ish HP cars out there with FWD?"

Quote :

"I think he means as opposed to AWD, like a Turbo for example."

Exactly. It's the only RWD turbocharged 911 you can buy.

Quote :

"^^ But isn't AWD considered "better" than just RWD?"

Not if you want greater driver involvement. And I think most would only consider AWD better for launching.

I'm with sumfoo1, I would rather own an F355.

8/7/2014 12:02:49 PM

Too bad F355 might be the most maintenance intensive F-car out there, especially low mileage examples, otherwise that would be my recommendation. They need to be driven! Modena is like a civic by maintenance comparison. Honestly, I would wait for F430 to drop or get a GT2, as F360 is rather blah.

I think you might enjoy (albeit temporary) C6 Z06 even though it is not your style.

Quote :

" I'm with sumfoo1, I would rather own an F355."

Me three. My favorite prancing horse!

[Edited on August 7, 2014 at 1:10 PM. Reason : f]

8/7/2014 1:09:33 PM

Thanks for the thoughts people. I’m open to other suggestions as well.

I recognize that the GT2 would outperform an F360 handily even stock and the GT2 is also probably more reliable and definitely cheaper to run. It IS exactly the car I really want but at this point the F360 is cheaper to buy and I’ve never had one. If I could rent one for two weeks, that’d be perfect but unfortunately that doesn’t seem easy to do. I don’t even know how I would go about driving one period. I think the 360 is a good looking car, if awkward from some angles. I’m not interested in an F355. The only other Ferraris I like are the F40 and the F430, neither of which I would remotely consider at this point. I hope one day I would get to drive an F40 however, they are quite wonderful.

As a note, I don’t buy into the Ferrari mystique. I’ve always felt they were over priced, but I remember feeling that way about Porsches when I had an M3 as well. Since I’ve come to find that Porsches tend to be worth what they sell for, as they’re durable, well engineered cars, I wonder if I’ve not been open minded about Ferraris. That said, I wouldn’t buy a Ferrari or Porsche or something else “because it’s a Ferrari” or whatever. In fact, the image is a big negative. The car would have to be silver or dark blue, certainly not yellow, red, or black. I’d like to drive whichever car on a very regular basis, including street parking over night downtown, and biking trips, the lack of roof rack is a big negative.

RE: Corvette. I’m not a huge fan of them, I’ve owned one and wasn’t particularly impressed. I want a car that I enjoy having every day. The C5 was far from that, C6s seem better honestly but they’re not that exciting to me, even if a C6 Z06 can outperform a 360 for less money. Speaking of, I do immensely enjoy the 996 turbo I have now. I have considered making it 2wd and further stiffening the suspension, it’d be less than half the cost of the GT2...

8/7/2014 1:52:01 PM

RE: 355. They’re good looking (still prefer the 360 personally), but I’m not looking to own something that old or maintenance needy. If I were going older, a 964 turbo is very appealing, but I’m not sure if that direction is what I want either.

Now, a Super 7, that’s an exciting idea also. And FAR cheaper, but it couldn’t be my primary car for obvious reasons.

8/7/2014 1:53:41 PM

I have considered the same cars and also an exige s 280. I /wouldnt/ have to drive it daily, and as such I look at cheaper options like the 7 or a radical. if an s2000 came with a hard top, it would be ideal

8/7/2014 8:33:58 PM

Quote :

"it’d be less than half the cost of the GT2..."

Upfront, yeah...but I bet you'd spend money and hurt the value of the car, unless you found a rare buyer.

The GT2 probably isn't depreciating. It ultimately won't cost you much, if anything at all, other than ownership costs.


Also, my 7 is not for sale, but that could change. Let me track it a few times now that it's sorted out better, and we'll see. The thought of selling it has crossed my mind.

8/7/2014 10:49:30 PM

You’re like me, always wanting something else. What drivetrain does yours have? My idea of a super 7 includes a hayabusa motor along with a sequential box however. :/

8/7/2014 10:52:24 PM

its annoying to me that you put roof racks on all your cars

ruins them imho

that being said get the blue 360 they look really good in person

8/7/2014 10:58:39 PM

I mean, I go biking 3-4 times a week so it’s kind of a requirement. I disagree on it ruining the lines, but to each his own.

RE: GT2ifying the turbo:
I suspect most people couldn’t even tell the 2wd conversion honestly... There isn’t too much I’d want to do. Like my current car already has the rear seats/seatbelts/anchors, etc. and the hydraulics of the rear spoiler disabled/removed. I would just put stiffer coil overs on it (already on H/R race springs), remove the AWD, add an LSD and a tune to about 500hp. I can see that reducing the audience but I’m not exactly talking about spending a ton here, the only real cost is the LSD, rest is parts removal. -There IS an “e-lsd” function already. When the stability control is turned off, rear wheel speeds are equalized by braking the faster spinning wheel. It works OK I suppose, just doesn’t have the fluid feel of an actual clutch type LSD.

8/7/2014 11:04:32 PM

7 has a 1.8 Miata engine with T3/T4 hybrid, Miata transmission, and Miata Torsen diff.

8/7/2014 11:55:16 PM

What $-ish would it go for?

8/8/2014 12:04:48 AM

Low-mid to mid-teens, prob, depending on how much more I improve it, condition of tires, etc.

8/9/2014 12:04:14 AM

I love the bike roof rack. Looks good and functional. Hell, I might even consider a hitch too

8/9/2014 5:36:13 AM

Or an already upfitted Elise/Exige

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/2009-white-elise-vf2-supercharged-248881/

Looking at at least 280hp, though with all of the other additions, probably more like 300-320hp tuned. And you can still put a bike rack on it

Or the infamous "cut weight" Elise that's up for sale:

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/1465-pounds-2005-lotus-elise-supercharged-118657/
(~1400lbs, supercharged)

[Edited on August 11, 2014 at 6:58 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2014 6:55:46 PM

I drove an Elise and was pretty disappointed. I had driven a GT3 back to back with it, but I was bored with it honestly. Now, I have driven terrible examples of cars before, and I’m fully prepared to be taken by a Lotus at some point but currently it hardly even registers. It’s one of those cars that I am glad exist (like the Viper or the CTS-V series cars), but I’m not not likely to own one.

The Ferrari is something I really want to experience though reading about ownership costs is concerning. Service intervals are ridiculous and parts availability is worse than any other modern car sold in the U.S. I can think of.

Still, they look very involving to drive. It seems like an exotic version of an Integra Type R. Super high redline, very high output/liter, high compression V8, mid engined and sharp. I would love to drive one...

That said, I’m under no illusions. I would like to toss around a 360 for a bit, but I really do want a GT2, and that’s not likely to change anytime soon.

8/11/2014 10:24:09 PM

you havent driven both a 360 and gt2 yet? seems like thats the obvious place to start.

you kick around so many seemingly expensive ideas, while i dont want to know how much money you have/make, i would be interested in how you pay for them.

things like financing etc, ive never had an exotic and likely never will. break it down for us poor nissan driving fools.

8/11/2014 11:50:38 PM

I'll let Ahmet talk about his finances if he wants; I only know bits and pieces, and it's not my business...

I will offer that buying cars like that isn't expensive-you just have to have enough money for the buy-in. After that, if you drive them for a while and sell them for what you paid for them, give or take a little, your only expense was just opportunity cost (i.e., how much money could I have made with that money if I'd had it in stocks, or real estate, or whatever, instead of a car).

Owning cars can be expensive, but for 10 years and many cars, I bet I've roughly made money on buying/selling, and at least broken-even on total ownership cost if you don't count consumables like brakes/tires/fuel, and insurance.

but yeah, i'd drive them both...but that might take some work to score test drives in both. They aren't exactly everywhere (I'd guess a GT2 is even rarer and tougher to find)...and it'll be really tough to get to test drive them both hard enough to really discern their behavior when it counts.

[Edited on August 12, 2014 at 12:08 AM. Reason : ]

8/12/2014 12:04:40 AM

No big surprises here. How I can “afford” these cars, well there’s two sides to it.

1- I’ve saved and invested most of everything I've earned since I was very young. I am not married, don’t have kids. In fact, I would say my preoccupation with investing (one could argue it has paid off at this point) kept me from taking school more seriously and going after a different career. By the way, considering this venue, you should note that I’m not in my 20s either. I’ve thought about starting a blog going over this stuff to help others, but that’s a different topic. Feel free to PM me if you’d like though, always happy to share thoughts. I’d tell you I worked hard but I haven’t had a particularly outstanding source of income, though one doesn’t really need it if you’re this conservative, and that ties into;

2- I’ve been SUPER cheap with everything. I lost like $3k on the first car I bought when I was 17ish (a 944 NA) and after that I made sure I wouldn’t take a bath every time I bought a car. I actually do this with most bigger purchases. For example, I race mountain bikes and of the 7? I’ve had, I’ve only bought one new, cause if you thought car depreciation was bad... Anyway, as far as owning them, like duke says, if you buy smart and can do the work yourself, it’s not so bad. I managed an automotive repair facility for two years, worked as a mechanic in college, bla blah, so that also helped obviously.

I’ll tell you this though, I had a catastrophic engine failure (spun rod bearing) in a 911 two years ago. I took 3 months worth of nights, weekends and lunches to fix it using nothing other than self made “special” tools and no more than $200 worth of gaskets/bearings/bolts, to do a partial rebuild. THAT is the embodiment of how I own these things. That is to say I dive in, learn anything and everything I can about them, work on them before finally feeling like owning one further doesn’t teach me or challenge me as much as owning something else would, and I feel so much better for having had that experience. I even rebuilt a radiator once. Anyway, after literally two decades of saving/investing/not splurging on much, finally I’m in a position where I’m starting to pay others to fix/maintain my cars and not feel truly stressed about it. Not to say I enjoy putting tires on the car, that might actually be my most annoying expense at this point...

Back to the cars, I have spent over 4 hours on track in a GT2, and own a somewhat modified 911 turbo (my second), which admittedly is very similar (but not similar enough hah). I know that car well enough to know that it’s what I want. The 360 I’m not sure about. Not many people would be OK with somebody who’s not even sure they want one driving their car the way I need to drive one to know how I feel about the car. That’s why I see this as more of an “extended test drive” than an ownership -if it even happens. And speaking of ownership costs and expense, THAT looks like a much bigger can of worms on the 360. I’m reading about recommended 3000 mile belt changes (ridiculous), cam timing actuator failures, broken cams, etc. Now, I realize internet folklore is to be taken with a grain of salt but these things don’t share many parts with any other car, and that I find to be frankly nonsensical. I can’t get an air filter or a brake rotor for it through my usual sources which can help me with at least SOME parts on anything from a Lamborghini to a Peuguot. Producing a car that shares very little with some other mass produced cars could seem pure or focused, but also deliberate at best and difficult at worst... to the detriment of not only the engineering and production costs and complexity but long term ownership as well. But maybe that’s part of how they get so many people to say “hey who cares, it’s a Ferrari”.

8/12/2014 3:22:48 AM

awesome response

thanks duke for chiming in as well

it doesnt sound (ahmet) like the 360 fits with your usual method of operation

i no longer consider you a humblebrag (ha)

the closest ive ever come to buying exotics is a first gen viper or NSX. didnt pull the trigger on either-

8/12/2014 9:00:27 PM

I appreciate you saying so, makes me feel like I didn’t waste time putting all that down.

I’ve considered the NSX and used to like the Viper as well. I worked on a 2nd gen Viper for a little while, that promptly took care of the admiration of that car. They really are built like 80s pick up trucks, no precision or sophistication. Still an incredible package, but it’s hard to go from a mass produced German car background to basically a kit car. I really like NSXs, their price had kept me away years ago and their performance seems underwhelming by modern standards, not that performance is everything. I think they’re gorgeous though, fantastic looking cars. The organizers at Chin Motorsports used to have two supercharged examples they tracked with us often. They were pretty capable from what I recall.

8/12/2014 10:47:50 PM

I've always assumed you just flipped cars till you got to the top. I've always been pretty impressed and kinda jealous. I recently had the ability to buy a 996 turbo and passed because I was too chicken on possible repairs.

A 360 is an awesome car but it doesn't seem like a Ferrari to me which to me says you get all the 10/20k repair bills without feeling like its a Ferrari.

I would gt2 all day long though.

That being said as far as investing in cars goes I know you can't lose money on a gt Porsche but.... What about a 993 turbo? I mean not as track day but pretty collectible.

8/13/2014 6:29:09 AM

This person decided on both (I think... I'm not sure what model porsche that is)

I too think the 360 is a fantastic looking car. I'm not sure where the "it doesn't feel like a ferrari" comes from.

Would you try to do your own routine maintenance work on the 360 if you got one?

8/13/2014 8:47:26 AM

Quote :

"I'm not sure what model porsche that is"

Well it says turbo on the back, and the license plate says slick 997. Thus, 997 Turbo

8/13/2014 9:09:57 AM

spending money on a car like this that you are going to be able to sell later for the same amount makes a lot more sense financially then buying 3 sets of rims and tires and suspension upgrades for a late model Maxima

8/13/2014 10:02:57 AM

Yeah I read something about how some think that 360s have hit bottom and will start appreciating (or maybe already have?)

8/13/2014 10:17:01 AM

NSFW, 996 turbo reliability; they have a reputation for being extremely tough. Mine have been fine so far, though it is a 10 year old car now and you can run into things like window regulators and the like, so it won’t be like a 3 year old Civic but I think well worth the hassle. I know what you mean though, I was worried about the possibility of a catastrophic failure on a 996 for a while. It did happen, thankfully mine was a salvageable engine, just needed a half full of parts. I’ll make a thread w/pics from that rebuild in a few mins.

dustm,Working on the Ferrari; Chances are I would do practically everything myself. Probably would pay for oil changes after the first one though, or stuff like tires (I might take the wheel off the car myself and just bring wheels to a shop, maybe). It’s parts availability more than maintenance cost that has me hesitating. That and the possibility of a bigger failure. It “not feeling like a Ferrari”, I can’t say. I’ve spent very little time around them (I did get to inspect, listen, watch an F40, though never ridden in or driven one), but the 360 looks good to me too.

dtownral, Exactly! The idea of making a car exactly how you want it to be sounds appealing... but like I said, I was burned from my first car (it cost me pretty much all the money I could save at 17). Thankfully I’ve also started feeling like it’s better to start with a more capable platform than modifying something to an extreme so those two go hand in hand. (it’s unfortunate few high performance cars are hardcore and fun to drive, they’re becoming bigger boats, see BMW). Now that said, I’ve sort of always wanted something stupid like an e30 with an internally stock engine making 300+hp. I’d love to tackle that at some point, full well knowing that it’d still be a crappy car and have terrible resale. THAT would be a toy, an expensive one. Ironically, quite possibly more expensive than playing with a 996 turbo for a year.

Duke, as you know I don’t see most cars as an investment. I doubt the 360 would see a significant uptick anytime soon though perhaps it’s done depreciating. Now the 996 GT2 very well might go up, but that’s speculation. That said, I really considered flipping an MK2 997 GT3 RS, but I didn't follow through. Too much money at the time for a speculative “investment”, +transactional costs are high (taxes, etc.). The more expensive the car, the bigger those costs become. If you want to flip cars, around $10k would be much better. People also don’t tend to need as much financing on the buying end at that point. However, if you look at how much said late model GT3s are going for, that would’ve been one solid move. I’m not big on speculative “investing”, but I’d imagine stocks or art would be better for that.

8/13/2014 5:47:21 PM

Oh for sure, I just meant that if you're in the market for a 360, it might be as good of a time as you'll find to do it.

8/13/2014 6:32:23 PM

Since we're talking about Ferraris and value retainage, etc. I wanted to bring something up. I could be wrong about this, but I've been told countless times that if a Ferrari is not maintained at a dealership or high level mechanic with full service documentation that it becomes a bit of a pariah amongst Ferrari aficionados.

8/14/2014 8:29:18 AM

And I’d be looking to find just one like that for mid $50s!

8/14/2014 10:46:56 AM

hahaha

8/14/2014 12:41:56 PM

Well, I do sort of intend to continue looking for one of these, however I think I might pull the trigger on an e30 that I would turbocharge, kind of exciting if it ever happened.

8/21/2014 9:54:12 PM

I thought for a second somefool has hijacked Ahmet's account. At least this time this E30T fantasy might realize ...

8/22/2014 1:25:13 AM

lol I wouldn’t count on it. i have way too many things going on at the moment (and just started taking classes again). Aside from that, this is something I’ve wanted to do for ever...

8/22/2014 9:43:08 AM

Local shop has a black 360 Modena for sale on consignment. 47k miles. Unknown price. Cosmetic condition is so-so for a Ferrari (would be very clean for a 15 year old Toyota, but that's not the yardstick.) They just got it in today; it hasn't been detailed or waxed or anything, and it needs it (again, for a Ferrari).

They're also gonna replace some stuff like slightly deteriorated window trim. There are so some slightly deteriorated interior plastic parts (knobs, etc). It frankly isn't as nice inside as I thought a 360 would be. The engine bay is badass looking, though! It's also half the car, haha.


The shop primarily deals in Corvettes...specifically the "special" ones of all vintages. There's a C6 ZR1 there, about 5 C4 ZR1s, Z06s of all flavors, etc...and C2s, C3s, etc. there's a 2G CTS-V. He deals in and works on all sorts of specialty cars, though. He's a good dude, but...the embodiment of the "damn Yankee" stereotype, haha. Sometimes he's pretty pricy, sometimes he's OK. His assessment of what my C5-Z was worth on consignment was WAY off low, though.

[Edited on August 25, 2014 at 5:02 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2014 4:55:58 PM

well its settled then

ahmet needs to rescue it

8/25/2014 5:29:09 PM

Black ain't my color, and I'd prolly need higher miles...

I'm about to acquire an e30, and I don't think I want three cars while I try to sell my house and apply to grad school. Too much on my plate. :/

8/25/2014 11:16:35 PM

yeah black is pretty near my last choice for car color. that, and gold.

8/26/2014 12:12:06 AM

Pink is my least favorite car color.

[Edited on August 26, 2014 at 1:36 AM. Reason : .]

8/26/2014 1:35:42 AM

^^ 4 days ago, i would have agreed with you... i guess i still do. but then there is this:

8/26/2014 2:54:23 AM