At this point I think Donald Trump deserves his own thread.

I'm not a Trump fan, never have been, but...hes growing on me ever so slightly.

He doesn't fall in line with the Republican establishment, so I don't think we need to keep talking about him in the Republican thread, and there's a good chance he's going to be all the Republicans have to put up against Hillary or Bernie.

Like it was mentioned in other threads, he has played the Republican primaries perfectly, breaking "rules" and beating them at every turn. I don't see Cruz or Rubio making it in Iowa, unless people, alone in their booth, really understand what they are voting for. But really, between Trump and Cruz, just the face-time alone with the public will put Trump first.

And let's not kid ourselves here. He's not going to be a good Republican in terms of traditional Republican values. He has said several times in the past many things that fall outside the realm of traditional Republican values, and way outside the lines of far right conservative values. This is why he is growing on me. Sure, he's an egomaniac, but if it's him, I think he could surround himself withe right people to fill in the blanks (most of them are blanks) for areas he's not familiar with. I think it would be a good middle-of-the-road candidate.

It seems the only thing he has been far-far-right on are his stances on immigration, which I think he just said to put him on the map. I really don't think that he thinks he can make Mexico pay for a wall. It sounds good to a lot of uneducated or blue-collar voters, so he said it to get his campaign started. I bet if he gets the nomination, we'll see him start dialing back his harsh rhetoric on immigration. There's just no way possible to implement his plans, and he knows it.

But before I cast my vote in our primary (ugh, my choices suck) I want to see more details from him. Right now, all we really get are adjectives..."it's gonna be great," "it's gonna be beautiful."

I need more than adjectives.

Again, I'm not a Trump fan, but I find myself asking "what if" more and more.

1/29/2016 11:35:34 AM

He's an asshole who panders to the fears and biases of the lowest common denominator. What else is there to discuss?

He'll say anything he possibly can to stay in the spotlight and there are plenty of brain dead fools in this country he appeals to.

1/29/2016 12:05:17 PM

congrats on outing yourself as an absolute sucker, dude

1/29/2016 12:08:16 PM

Quote :

"congrats on outing yourself as an absolute sucker, dude"

1/29/2016 12:11:51 PM

Quote :

"Like it was mentioned in other threads, he has played the Republican primaries perfectly"

How

How can you say this

How can you say this when not one fucking primary has happened

Quote :

"I don't see Cruz or Rubio making it in Iowa, unless people, alone in their booth"

Iowa has a caucus. They won't be alone in their booth.

Quote :

" I think it would be a good middle-of-the-road candidate."

I'm speechless.

1/29/2016 12:29:58 PM

thread off to a great start

1/29/2016 1:06:02 PM

Trump's companies are well known for not paying their vendors in NYC.

1/29/2016 1:15:40 PM

No need to call me a sucker, let me be clear, I'm not voting for him. I just said he's starting to grow on me. I just wonder what it will be like when the circus is over.

But as a Republican, I really don't have any good options. The person I planned on voting for has long since been out of the running.

I just want to think that if Trump is going to be the one, this charade he's pulling right now can't be it. It just can't be.

1/29/2016 1:28:08 PM

I'll consider moving out of the country if he becomes president.

1/29/2016 1:31:58 PM

and because you're admitting that he's starting to grow on you, you are an absolute sucker

as a true believer, you should be absolutely repulsed by him and the spotlight he is shining on your party

1/29/2016 1:32:21 PM

jeb and rand are the only logical republicans in the race.

people act like they are sophisticated for liking cruz over trump when cruz is just spews a more nuanced/polished version of the same hatred and all rubio can do is talk about how we're all gonna die if we don't blow more shit up.

1/29/2016 2:42:17 PM

Quote :

"I'll consider moving out of the country if he becomes president."

No you won't

1/29/2016 3:15:06 PM

I'd prefer Trump to Clinton, not because I think he is better but because I think the long term damage to the democratic party is worse than the damage Trump could do in 4 years

1/29/2016 3:36:36 PM

When you strip away Trump's bravado, his actual positions on paper are what most right-of-center folks would consider moderate. One notable exception may be immigration. Most of his positions are middle over the road Republican. In some areas, he's actually more liberal; attitudes toward foreign policy and drug policy don't seem totally out of the realm of "moderate" politics.

Trump doesn't seem to be a religious fundamentalist and he doesn't really seem attached to any particular ideology. If he has principles, I'm not even sure what they are. On the surface he seems like a ruthless pragmatist.

Trump has some pretty comical and extreme rhetoric, but I think people interpret the extreme rhetoric as a proxy for his decision making abilities. In fact, Trump has written quite candidly about his strategy in his books. The guy understands the media better than the media does. His tactic is to use hyperbole to overstate his position, a standard negotiating tactic. This a really effective way to fire up his supporters.

Trump's success is emblematic of a political culture that has been dumbed down to soundbites and gotchas. I don't Trump is unknowingly part of this culture, I think he actually understands it and is exploiting it. The media is not happy about this. Their weapon of choice has been to package complex issues into curated, easily digestible soundbites, but Trump can play that game 10x better.

[Edited on January 29, 2016 at 4:01 PM. Reason : ]

1/29/2016 4:00:36 PM

^ IOW, Trump is lying about his beliefs, just like the other politicians are, but he's lying in a different, dangerous way. This doesn't make me view him any better as a politician.

1/29/2016 4:33:13 PM

It's not clear to me how his way is more dangerous

1/29/2016 5:30:31 PM

That's what I'm trying to say....take away the theatrics, and what do you have? A ruthless politician? A man who knows how to get what he wants? How would his negotiation tactics work on an international scale?

We can all laugh at him and call him ridiculous, but serious or not, he is a serious candidate and very likely the Republican nominee, which means he might have a good shot at the presidency. I've heard that a good many blue-collar democrats are on board with him.

My vote would have gone to Bush, because I think he's one of the few level-headed, experienced leaders in the group.

Now? I don't know. I can't vote for Trump, he's too far right. There's something I don't like about Rubio, but I can't put my finger on it. Rand is way too libertarian, and if he gets elected I'll be out of a job. Carson, haha.

That's it.

1/29/2016 6:35:14 PM

^^
Because his rhetoric is based almost exclusively around xenophobia, building hate for Hispanics and "Muslims". As a brown person, it's bad enough having to be extra cautious of how tsa and law enforcement perceive me, trump is making it more likely some otherwise innocuous towny is going to lash out. There's already been at least 2 attacks where the attackers cited trump directly and probably more where trumps influence was more subtle.

There's the long term damage too where we have to deal with right wing nationalists with real political power, like you see in Europe, instead of just the dog whistling we get now from some people.

Of course, if trump wins the nomination, it wouldn't be uncharacteristic of him to change direction and say nutty stuff that appeals to the left, but I doubt this. Trumps attacks on Obamas birth certificate, his recent head negro thing make me think he's actually a racist and doesn't care if people know. He's provided a safe harbor for racists to express their views at the highest levels.

Politically, Cruz might be able to get more absurd legislation through than trump, but socially, trump sets the stage for some nasty politics in the future. And as automation continues to rock the boat, political battles are going to be hard enough in the future without having to fight the scapegoating of ethnicities that trump is emboldening.

1/29/2016 6:48:34 PM

But I think you're going to see him dial down the crazy rhetoric if he wins. I honestly think its just for show. I mean the man has donated money to Hillary and other Democratic politicians. He says it was to gain favor, and maybe it was, but if you are ideologically opposed to something, and you're passionate about it, you aren't going to donate squat, regardless of what it gets you.

1/29/2016 7:42:51 PM

Yes. That must be why the Koch Brothers have never donated to Democrats.

Also,

Quote :

"congrats on outing yourself as an absolute sucker, dude"

[Edited on January 29, 2016 at 8:22 PM. Reason : Stupid phone]

1/29/2016 8:18:02 PM

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/02/01/us/politics/trump-field-organizer-accuses-campaign-of-sex-discrimination.html

1/31/2016 7:04:57 PM

Trump is growing on me as the Republican nominee, because it would guarantee a landslide victory for the Democrats.

1/31/2016 8:05:05 PM

Why growing? Why not all-in on Trump from the start if that's what u want?

1/31/2016 11:49:50 PM

I can't speak for AndyMac, but if I were to answer the question it's because at the start hardly anyone considered Trump to be a serious contender for the Republican nomination; now it seems likely.

2/1/2016 1:08:41 AM

LOL

Donald vs. Trump debate

https://www.facebook.com/185996708274547/videos/506816592859222/

2/1/2016 6:28:51 AM

Quote :

"it would guarantee a landslide victory for the Democrats."

I'm slowly losing faith in this. I've spoken to many people who I'd consider reasonable and educated that support Trump, albeit quietly. We hear all the stories about his white nationalist and uneducated supporters but there are normal people out there too.

Still think he'd lose but I'm not as confident about it as I was before. I think Dems would beat somebody like Cruz worse than Trump.

2/1/2016 7:47:25 AM

The best thing about a Trump nomination would be that after they lose the GOP will yet again have another scapegoat that wasn't a "true conservative" instead of doing what they should be doing and realizing that their moronic social and immigration policies give them no possible way to win with today's demographics.

2/1/2016 9:07:57 AM

Blue-collar Democrats are going to be the biggest threat to Democrats in 2016. They're gonna go for Trump. I know it.

I'll completely change my train of thought if Trump loses Iowa, but there are just too many people jumping on board the "I'm tired of Washington" schtick.

You folks just might as well get used to the idea of having this man for president, for better or for worse. If you plan on moving to Canada or some other country, go ahead and start packing.

I hope I'm wrong, but if I am, then Cruz. And he's no better.

2/1/2016 9:48:22 AM

Sanders is actually doing pretty well with that demographic

2/1/2016 10:28:53 AM

From a liberal's standpoint, I think Cruz is probably worse. Cruz is a true believer in his brand of conservatism. He's a fundamentalist, he's a hawk...there just aren't really any redeeming qualities.

Trump is a cliche. He's the over the top capitalist villain. That's just his character though; of all the Republican candidates, Democrats should actually prefer Trump or Paul, and Paul's pretty much done. Everyone else on the stage is truly an extremist of some sort. Trump isn't an extremist, he just has a brand of rhetoric that people aren't used to seeing in a political context.

Educated liberals can't fathom a Trump presidency, but they ignore the threat from him at their own peril. Trump can fire up parts of the Democratic base. If he succeeds at that and the GOP rallies behind him, the only landslide victory I can foresee is a Trump victory.

2/1/2016 10:34:41 AM

^yeah, i'm starting to see it this way. Trump's better than Cruz and Rubio, and unfortunately it seems those are the only republican possibilities. It's hard to tell what Trump would be like as a president, but it may not be quite as bad as it may seem, as it appears that a lot of his rhetoric now is to just get elected, and I imagine he'd dial it back a lot of it if he's nominated. If he does become president, it will certainly be an interesting four years (and quite a commentary on the american public), but it may not be quite as bad as it may seem.

2/1/2016 11:31:53 AM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/01/sarah-palin-freaks-out-on-today-show-over-ptsd-question.html

Why do they even interview this woman...

2/1/2016 11:39:54 AM

I'm not saying ya'll are wrong, but......

Dems have lost the white male demographic in varying degrees, in every presidential election since the 1960s. Obama lost white males by like 25 points, and still won. If you take out white collar white males I can pretty much guarantee those losses are even larger.

What makes you think there are enough working class white males hidden in some corner of the Dem party that could make a significant difference?

2/1/2016 11:41:50 AM

Quote :

"^yeah, i'm starting to see it this way. Trump's better than Cruz and Rubio, and unfortunately it seems those are the only republican possibilities. It's hard to tell what Trump would be like as a president, but it may not be quite as bad as it may seem, as it appears that a lot of his rhetoric now is to just get elected, and I imagine he'd dial it back a lot of it if he's nominated. If he does become president, it will certainly be an interesting four years (and quite a commentary on the american public), but it may not be quite as bad as it may seem."

This is pretty much what I said in the OP, and I was called a sucker for it.

I think people will be unpleasantly surprised at the results of this election. But if Cruz wins the primary, he won't win the general.

2/1/2016 12:24:47 PM

I don't think it would be surprising of trump wins this 1 primary, it would be shocking, and I'm sure the intelligent republicans will go into panic mode. Trumps unfavorability is still the highest among all candidates so the democrats wouldn't need to panic, but they would need to stay vigilant.

Trump has built up a persona over the decades that lets him get away with saying more than the other candidates, and he uses this to his advantage very effectively.

2/1/2016 1:16:09 PM

Quote :

"I don't think it would be surprising of trump wins this 1 primary, it would be shocking"

Why shocking? http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

Quote :

"Trumps unfavorability is still the highest among all candidates so the democrats wouldn't need to panic"

Barely the highest. Just like his poll numbers, his favorability numbers have improved too.
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/donald-trump-favorable-rating
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating

2/1/2016 2:03:22 PM

Quote :

"intelligent republicans"

they left the party a couple decades ago

2/1/2016 2:12:59 PM

Quote :

"This is pretty much what I said in the OP, and I was called a sucker for it."

I think it was mostly because you said he was "growing on you". But yeah, I agree with a lot of what you said in the post. Don't get me wrong, I think he would be a pretty bad president, and it's a sad commentary on American society that he's a front-runner, and he's a terrible human being... but it could be worse. And Cruz would be worse.

2/1/2016 3:52:21 PM

Quote :

"Why shocking? http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/"

Shocking in the sense "holy crap, this can't be happening".

2/1/2016 3:53:43 PM

I've already figured he'd win some states...real question is how many

2/1/2016 4:02:16 PM

Quote :

"I'll completely change my train of thought if Trump loses Iowa, but there are just too many people jumping on board the "I'm tired of Washington" schtick."

And that is why I like Trump. The last person we need is Sanders in office. Clinton is almost as bad. We need to get rid of the establishment. Letting someone into the White house that has been a part of capitol hill since the 90s is not the way to do that. I don't know if anything will get done under Trump because both parties will just fight like always, but I'm willing to give him a chance.

2/1/2016 7:07:18 PM

Just because Sanders has been in Washington actively fighting against the establishment for 20+ years doesn't mean he is a part of it.

2/1/2016 7:36:56 PM

^^ What would you like to see a President Trump accomplish?

2/1/2016 9:12:42 PM

now we get to hear everyone talk about how trump is done when he's not.

2/1/2016 9:47:07 PM

now we get to hear everyone Trump talk about how trump is done when he's not. the polls and results are stupid and wrong, and how he's still going to win anyway.

ftfy

2/1/2016 9:50:12 PM

Quote :

"Just because Sanders has been in Washington actively fighting against the establishment for 20+ years doesn't mean he is a part of it."

Well I consider anyone who has been in DC that long a part of the establishment. He wants to spend way too much money. With that being said, the next president probably doesn't get Obamacare repealed which needs to happen. There are issues with healthcare, but those need to be handled without getting the government even more involved.

2/2/2016 12:30:21 AM

Trump is a loser and so is the every idiot that supports him. The rest of the GOP even knows this.

2/2/2016 12:38:59 AM

The "spending money" thing is a myth. Americans already spend more money on healthcare and college than what would be spent in Bernie's plan.

Also, if you really want to talk about spending, Rand Paul is the only candidate you can support.

2/2/2016 12:44:08 AM

^I'm just not a fan of government funded healthcare, or college. Obamacare is a mess, so is medicaid, medicare, the VA, welfare programs, cash for clunkers, etc. When has the government ever run something right? It's not often if they have. I have heard of free college programs in some states, so maybe they can work, but I feel things like that should be handled on the state level and not at the federal level. IIRC, the Georgia lottery funds free college for high school students who meet certain academic requirements and Tennessee offers free community college.

2/2/2016 12:59:57 AM

^ in what ways is obamacare a mess? Medicare is one of the most efficient and highly rated healthcare systems. The VA is even highly rated in quality of care compared to other providers, although they have a wait time problem.

And as far as what government has gotten right... A hell of a lot. The USA didn't become the greatest country on earth through the 20th century by chance. We didn't make it through the recession better than other industrialized countries just by luck.

Cash for clunkers achieved it's intended goals very well.

No human institution is perfect, not even government, just look at how people complain about their insurance companies or Best Buy or Comcast etc, but our government hasn't done too badly, and has done better than most, largely because of progressive leaders that believe in the greatness of our society and what we can achieve together.

And China, Germany, Japan, swedes, etc are pushing higher Ed for their citizens, the us will fall behind if we don't keep up.

2/2/2016 1:15:47 AM