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UJustWait84
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http://www.yescalifornia.org

I know I'm going to get mocked and insulted for this, but I'm increasingly open to the idea.

11/12/2016 11:48:35 AM

JesusHChrist
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I think Californians (myself included) need to think real long and hard about the powers we have invested the executive branch, and how those powers could and would be used by this administration. Those of us on the left completely ignored those abuses of power, and now we are left with this:

-Extra judicial assassinations of American citizens

-Warrantless detention and torture

-Unauthorized surveillance, etc.


All of those things are on the table and at the discretion of an administration that ran a campaign with nationalist overtones.



By all means, vote your conscious, but understand what resistance you'll face. Geopolitical maps are often re-drawn in blood. This ain't gonna be no handshake agreement.



[Edited on November 12, 2016 at 12:03 PM. Reason : ]

11/12/2016 12:02:04 PM

Dentaldamn
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Lots of money and coastal access. This ain't happening without a war.

11/12/2016 12:13:42 PM

UJustWait84
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I don't see it happening by 2019, but I've been on the fence for a while, and this has been enough to get me to consider it more seriously. I'd definitely like to learn more about the possible consequences and how it would come to pass, and I'd rather devote my time and money towards the cause, than funding BS elections decided by the two party system and the EC. If it could be done relatively peacefully and we could remain strong allies with the US, I would renounce my US citizenship without question. But you're right, peaceful secession is probably a pipe dream.

11/12/2016 12:14:33 PM

BanjoMan
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the outcome would be war. No way that this would lead to a peaceful, democratic transition of power.

11/12/2016 12:32:09 PM

JesusHChrist
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^^ There would not be a swift timeline. It would be a long, protracted, bloody, awful mess, and you would be beaten back into submission by the full weight of the US military.

11/12/2016 12:41:33 PM

Wolfman Tim
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The US can just cut off their water supply.

11/12/2016 12:49:17 PM

TerdFerguson
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Was dumb when Texas did it under the Obama Administration (and all the other millions of times they've threatened it) and it's still dumb now.

Liberal Californians just need to shout STATE's RIGHTS every time the new administration does something stupid and then challenge it in liberal federal courts, either delaying everything for as long as possible or outright overturning it (aka the same thing red states have done for the past decade).

11/12/2016 1:05:21 PM

UJustWait84
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Texas isn't the world's 5th largest economy and doesn't have the resources CA does. People dismissing the notion don't really understand how the US needs CA and it's federal tax dollars far more than CA needs the US. If CA became its own country, the US would actually have a trade deficit with it.

While the potential for war and violence are undoubtedly valid reasons to try to shoot the whole idea down, I don't think looking back to the civil war is the best example or comparison. The South wouldn't have been able to survive for long on its own as a nation, while CA definitely could. Aside from that, there isn't a moral issue to go to war over like slavery in this case. While selfishly wanting to milk California for tax dollars, energy solutions, and technological advances might seem like practical reasons for the US to keep California under its thumb, there's no moral reason to violently oppress an otherwise relatively 'free' society. Furthermore, plenty of people would be happy to see California go, because they view it as a sanctuary for illegals, hippies, gays, and all sorts of 'undesirables' that would happily immigrate to CA, while those who are miserable in CA could leave if they wished. Let's also not ignore the fact that CA would have plenty of international allies like Japan, China, and Mexico- along with many progressive European countries as well.

It's not as crazy as it sounds when you take a step back and examine the logic behind the movement. And as far as the US cutting off its water supply, CA actually has plenty of its own that comes from the Sierra. Given that CA is already a leader in developing energy solutions, it could also find ways to make desalinization plants more efficient as well. I don't have much of an argument for how CA would be able to survive without the Feds when the "big one" hits, so that's another thing we'd really need to figure out.




[Edited on November 12, 2016 at 1:46 PM. Reason : .]

11/12/2016 1:30:18 PM

skywalkr
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This is so fantastic. The meltdown has just been better than I ever imagined.

11/12/2016 1:34:59 PM

OopsPowSrprs
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Who keeps the nukes?

11/12/2016 1:36:26 PM

UJustWait84
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^^I mean essentially that's what this election was about, right? Blowing everything up that wasn't working anymore. If it wasn't actually about racism and fear and a roar back against a corrupt political system that people seemed to hate so much, what was it really about?

^ good question. That would be a divisive issue for sure.

[Edited on November 12, 2016 at 1:39 PM. Reason : .]

11/12/2016 1:37:54 PM

thegoodlife3
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Quote :
"Was dumb when Texas did it under the Obama Administration (and all the other millions of times they've threatened it) and it's still dumb now."


bingo

some are becoming what they've hated for the last 16 years

11/12/2016 1:39:08 PM

UJustWait84
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No, some of us Californians have been thinking about it for a while now. I dismissed it at first because I thought it would never happen. But given Brexit and what just happened, my ideal of 'impossible' has changed. If you don't live here, I don't expect you to understand, but there's a good reason all of those ballot initiatives passed.

11/12/2016 1:41:36 PM

The E Man
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I'm for it and was for it before. Its just funny how liberals were american exceptionalists a week ago and now are all out confederates. They are so afraid of hate and division that they are literally out in the streets hating and dividing.

At the rate things are going by 2020 Kanye will be running for president of the west and he has already claimed this as his flag.



[Edited on November 12, 2016 at 1:54 PM. Reason : falg]

11/12/2016 1:54:04 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Texas isn't the world's 5th largest economy and doesn't have the resources CA does. People dismissing the notion don't really understand how the US needs CA and it's federal tax dollars far more than CA needs the US. If CA became its own country, the US would actually have a trade deficit with it. "


All of these are reasons why the federal government would never let California leave. And they sure as hell wouldn't tolerate losing access to the Pacific Ocean or willingly give up military bases in San Diego, etc. And I really doubt they're too interested in making a longer contiguous indefensible national border. Nation states that are mapped on political boundaries rather than geographic boundaries are inherently unstable and susceptible to turmoil.

This is stupid.

11/12/2016 1:58:30 PM

UJustWait84
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I hate to say it Earl, but a lot of what I attacked you for before is making more sense.

11/12/2016 1:58:49 PM

TerdFerguson
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One issue that could really drive this would be immigration. CA's economy, especially its Ag sector, is pretty dependent on seasonal migrant workers. Depending on what Trump's immigration policy ends up looking like (lol), the economic benefits of leaving the US could soar.

11/12/2016 2:01:15 PM

UJustWait84
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Immigration could absolutely fuel the movement for both sides.

[Edited on November 12, 2016 at 2:07 PM. Reason : .]

11/12/2016 2:05:43 PM

The E Man
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^^^like what

Also, how would the rest of the world react if a state declared independence and was attacked? Is that within international law? Are we forever trapped in this union unless they "let " us leave? I know this happened in Spain but they didn't seriously leave.

I guess my question is about ethics. How can you hold people under contractual obligations of the predecessors? Isn't that ultimately against human rights?

[Edited on November 12, 2016 at 2:10 PM. Reason : k]

11/12/2016 2:10:13 PM

UJustWait84
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Yeah, the inevitable "civil war" argument starts to fall apart if you think about how it's neither morally or ethically justified to violently attack a state for peacefully seeking its own sovereignty. The US would be the "bad guy" here, and other nations who have strong ties to CA might speak up and do something about it.

11/12/2016 2:42:52 PM

BanjoMan
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Texas is what, the worlds 12th largest economy? It has an amazing state university program that is probably second only to cali, as well as natural resources to boot. So yeah, never underestimate Texas.

[Edited on November 12, 2016 at 3:03 PM. Reason : h]

11/12/2016 3:03:24 PM

The E Man
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If texas and California joined forces with oregon, hawaii, new hampshire and vermont to leave they would have quite a large number of votes but still not enough. It would get interesting.

11/12/2016 3:07:59 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"the inevitable "civil war" argument starts to fall apart if you think about how it's neither morally or ethically justified to violently attack a state for peacefully seeking its own sovereignty. The US would be the "bad guy" here, and other nations who have strong ties to CA might speak up and do something about it."


Look. A simple vote wouldn't work. It would require a constitutional amendment, and then a 2/3rds majority of congress and the states.

And when every other state laughs in your face, the "movement" is over. And it's done.



Or then you could, you know, you could take up arms to revolt, but punk-ass California liberals aren't gonna do that so lets just put this idea to rest, shall we?

11/12/2016 3:16:41 PM

UJustWait84
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I'm not gong to put it to rest, but you and other people can. The fact that this discussion has grown a bit louder invites other people who don't identify with the rest of the US to explore the feasibility of such an idea. It's not going to happen tomorrow, but I'm certainly willing to explore it, along with others who feel the same way. That's sort of a how a society is supposed to work.

11/12/2016 3:38:27 PM

NyM410
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Silly. Won't happen. Get yourselves together.

[Edited on November 12, 2016 at 3:55 PM. Reason : X]

11/12/2016 3:54:50 PM

kdogg(c)
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oh man this is so much better than when Obama won in 2008

:D :D

11/12/2016 3:57:09 PM

d357r0y3r
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- The left talking about the excesses of federal/executive power, and how this might not be good for them
- The left talking about seceding

So, am I allowed to talk about states' rights and decentralization now without being shouted down and called a neo-confederate?

I've been making the argument that federalism is actually not a partisan issue for a long time. A powerful federal government is only good as long as you're in power.

And, anyway, why are people so obsessed with forcing their conservative/progressive values on populations that simply don't want them? California, Alabama doesn't want what you want. Alabama, California doesn't want what you want.

We don't need secession or a civil war, we just need to return power to the states. The problem is that people aren't satisfied with agreeable laws at home, they want their values imposed everywhere.

[Edited on November 12, 2016 at 4:15 PM. Reason : ]

11/12/2016 4:14:33 PM

UJustWait84
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I don't want my values imposed everywhere. I left the South because I didn't want to live there anymore, but I've never wanted to attack my family members, friends and their neighbors and force them to live the life I think is best. Maybe they felt that way when I voted for Obama, which is why so many of them voted for Trump in retaliation, but I wasn't voting for a government that was trying to take away anyone's rights.

11/12/2016 4:22:31 PM

d357r0y3r
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"I don't want my values imposed everywhere."


Oh, great, so you wouldn't vote for a federal politician that would impose, say, abortion laws or same sex marriage laws in states where it's unpopular, right?

This is the entire argument of the states' rights folks and the 10th amendment in general. Yes, it probably means that there will be states that have laws that you think are completely unacceptable. The theory, then, is that you'll vote with your feet - which you did.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic by the way - I'm pointing out that there are some solutions that can actually work for both sides politically, but the compromise is that you have to be willing to let go of idea that it's the federal government's job to civilize the Southern savages.


[Edited on November 12, 2016 at 4:28 PM. Reason : ]

11/12/2016 4:25:54 PM

UJustWait84
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I don't see those as "values". I see them as human rights issues guaranteed to people by the US Constitution. But I get the point you're trying to make.

11/12/2016 4:28:02 PM

TreeTwista10
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11/12/2016 7:09:37 PM

wizzkidd
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Quote :
"the inevitable "civil war" argument starts to fall apart if you think about how it's neither morally or ethically justified to violently attack a state for peacefully seeking its own sovereignty. The US would be the "bad guy" here, and other nations who have strong ties to CA might speak up and do something about it."


I don't believe that ANY moral or ethical argument holds up in any war, and certainly not a civil one. The realist school of political theory would argue that all restructuring of the international order is driven by the desire for power, and morality is simply a way to sell it to ourselves and others.

It would be very difficult for CA to secede without violence, or a Nation-wide movement including multiple states. Like has been said multiple times already, CA's economy,resources, and geography are very important in the US economy, and national defense structure, and I believe it's very unlikely that any Executive would just let happen without military action.

Quote :
"Also, how would the rest of the world react if a state declared independence and was attacked? Is that within international law? Are we forever trapped in this union unless they "let " us leave? I know this happened in Spain but they didn't seriously leave."


I'm not an international lawyer, but how has the rest of the world responded with other civil wars? With a few exceptions, the US has picked a side and called for a coalition to join it. Even if the rest of the world joined CA in spirit, no nation has the military capability to stop a full invasion and US occupation of California, and just recognizing CA as an independent nation could have major repercussions in international organizations.

Quote :
"I guess my question is about ethics. How can you hold people under contractual obligations of the predecessors? Isn't that ultimately against human rights?"

You're not holding people. It's the territory, and resources associated with it. (okay, yes a mass exodus of Californians to anywhere would be a HUGE detriment to the US, but that's ridiculously expensive on the individual level, so it's even less likely, without a civil war causing it.) State (in the international sense) Sovereignty is a BIG deal. Lots of wars have been started for reasons like this, and they're all very violent and take generations to recover from.

If you would like to be a part of a movement for California to exit the Union peacefully, go ahead. And if you wait around long enough a state will leave the US, as every great world power has fallen at some point. But it's never happened peacefully. Good Luck!

Finally, remember all those guns people argue about that CA thinks are too dangerous for the average person? Those (or perhaps a "well armed state Militia") are what CA is going to need to make a declaration of independence be taken seriously at all. I wonder if anyone in these CalExit circles sees the irony in that.

[Edited on November 12, 2016 at 10:30 PM. Reason : .]

11/12/2016 10:13:15 PM

UJustWait84
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Plenty of people in far Northern California have guns and would be happy to leave the US if it meant they could be left more alone by everyone, including the rest of CA. If faced with the choice between the lesser of two evils (coastal CA versus the overbearing US Federal government), I'm not so sure they'd stick with the US. If the new California republic could somehow compromise with them and draw up a favorable plan that would benefit them more, I don't see why they'd stick to the system they've hated for so long.

Again, all of this is all really far out there, and I've never suggested it'll happen right away, or even in my own lifetime. But dismissing the possibility of it ever happening, despite the logical reasons behind it, isn't very different from dismissing the rust belt and their frustrations. A lot of things have happened recently that seemed impossible not too long ago. Never say never when it comes to the human capacity to organize and seek out change. America is a very young nation, overall, and empires rise and fall. A good deal of what's happening right now are things we don't fully yet understand. What may happen very soon and could very well be things few of us ever saw coming.

11/12/2016 10:51:21 PM

adultswim
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Great way to for liberal Californians to show how they care about all the struggling minorities in the rest of the country. "Fuck yall, we're out, good luck"

11/12/2016 11:00:13 PM

UJustWait84
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Not quite. They'd be far more welcome in CA than where they are now, and could come on over if they wanted.

11/12/2016 11:02:42 PM

JesusHChrist
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The gun-totin' people in northern CA that you're depending on overwhelmingly voted for Trump.

Give it a rest, B.

11/12/2016 11:51:20 PM

UJustWait84
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Those same folks have also had the fantasy of seceding from the US to form the state of Jefferson for decades. They're incapable of actually do it on their own, but if they could work something out with CA, you really think they'd stay in the US? I don't. Plenty of them wanted to break the state up into six different states.

Oh, and Washington and Oregon are kinda sick of the US too. Throw in Nevada and now you've got a whole new ballgame

[Edited on November 13, 2016 at 12:07 AM. Reason : .]

11/13/2016 12:05:37 AM

JesusHChrist
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"Plenty of them wanted to break the state up into six different states."


Yes, to avoid the bay area and SoCal liberals.

You live in a bubble, man. Be happy about that. But at least recognize it.

11/13/2016 12:13:57 AM

Dentaldamn
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I COULD BE WRONG but the six state proposition I read was written by Bay Area tech guys trying to remove the poor shitty areas of Cali. Fresno is not a good teammate.

11/13/2016 12:37:32 AM

adultswim
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"Not quite. They'd be far more welcome in CA than where they are now, and could come on over if they wanted."


Does the New Californian Republic pay relocation costs?

[Edited on November 13, 2016 at 12:41 AM. Reason : .]

11/13/2016 12:41:08 AM

UJustWait84
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^Given that an entirely new government would be formed to create our newfound utopia, I'd say it's definitely on the table

^^It never even got on the ballot, but it appealed to some disenfranchised NorCal/CV voters because they'd get senators and congressmen whereas now they basically get squat. But yeah, it was Silicon Valley billionaires essentially trying to Gerrymander the state, knowing the math would work in their favor. Wasn't a fan of it one bit.

^^^obviously I live in a bubble. But we all kinda do to some extent.

[Edited on November 13, 2016 at 1:11 AM. Reason : .]

11/13/2016 1:10:37 AM

TreeTwista10
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Please bring this up to your family over Thanksgiving and report on their opinions

11/13/2016 1:18:32 AM

Dentaldamn
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People like to bitch about east and west coast liberals but without the Bay Area, LA and NYC the USA would be in an entirely different situation.

11/13/2016 1:30:58 AM

UJustWait84
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^^ Oh, I've already told them. My Trump supporting dad is cool with it, but he was cool with Brexit too. My younger brother is horrified. Nobody else seems to give a shit.

11/13/2016 1:34:11 AM

AndyMac
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I thought the sates learned their lesson in the 1860s. You can't just leave.

11/13/2016 1:52:54 AM

UJustWait84
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Apparently not

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/sd-calexit-poll-20161110-story.html

11/13/2016 2:07:11 AM

wizzkidd
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Quote :
"You live in a bubble, man. Be happy about that. But at least recognize it."


I find this whole argument so ironic. I'm doing some serious generalization here, but I feel like most of CA is leftist and have attempted to trample states' rights for a while now. (sweeping generalization, I can't defend it with facts, not 100% true, feels good to say) AND NOW they want to move to be their own Nation, because they're forced to play by rules that they didn't create. I'm just blown away.

Quote :
"Again, all of this is all really far out there, and I've never suggested it'll happen right away, or even in my own lifetime. But dismissing the possibility of it ever happening, despite the logical reasons behind it, isn't very different from dismissing the rust belt and their frustrations. A lot of things have happened recently that seemed impossible not too long ago. Never say never when it comes to the human capacity to organize and seek out change. America is a very young nation, overall, and empires rise and fall. A good deal of what's happening right now are things we don't fully yet understand. What may happen very soon and could very well be things few of us ever saw coming."


Yes, the USA will fall eventually as all empires do. (I think I said that already) There are a lot of realities to changes like this that aren't being addressed in this movement.

11/13/2016 8:17:05 AM

UJustWait84
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Look, politically, culturally, and economically, California has been on its own for quite some time. We feel like we've been repressed by the US government by not having sufficient participation in the US government, while sending billions of dollars each year to Washington to fund programs we didn't sign up for, that are a detriment to our goals, while getting little to nothing in return. If you want to know where all of this pent up frustration is coming from, go ahead and read the blue book found at the link I posted at the top of this thread. Read ALL of it. It does a far better job of explaining the reasons why California wants to leave than I have so far.

If you want to talk about irony, you should remember that the United States did the exact damn same thing when they were being unfairly taxed and lacked participation in the government that they felt was oppressing them. All of you calling Californians crazy for feeling this way should really go back and read a history book for some perspective. As Americans, you should respect the desire for self rule and self determination and the rebellion against a tyrannical and oppressive government- it's what led to the birth of a very powerful nation that's a better place to live than many other parts of the world. Oh, and it's not just us that want to leave. Look up the Cascadia secession movement and call them crazy and selfish too if it makes you feel any better.

Unlike the American Revolution, however, not a drop of blood needs to be shed in this case. California already has its own government, economy, culture, and enough citizens and it doesn't need to 'prove' to the US that it needs a larger government entity to protect us from ourselves and outside forces. On top of that, the secession movement is based on the idea of the US and California coming to a mutual decision to allow us to leave. Plenty of people would be happy to see us go, and we need the US's help to make it happen. Face it, people HATE California. They say it's filled with illegals, bankrupt, a third world desert; it's the land of fruits, flakes, and nuts and liberal pussies. They hope we slide off into the sea when the "big one" hits, and they laugh at us for having a drought. Just be rid of us already, OK? It's pretty revealing how many people think that the US would be justified using all of the weight of its military to prevent a new democracy from forming and violently seizing it back for its own purposes. Both the Civil War and the American Revolution were a pretty long time ago. California has moved on from both of them, and we'd like the US to do so too.

If you want to continue to live in a pro-war, socially regressive society, that has absurd election laws and no concern for the environment, you can stay where you are. Californians are begging you to let us leave, because we're ready to move on to address the immediate concerns of climate change and protecting citizens from having their rights taken away. I don't expect you all to take us seriously just yet, but don't be surprised if this movement grows louder and louder.


[Edited on November 13, 2016 at 11:00 AM. Reason : .]

11/13/2016 10:46:41 AM

NeuseRvrRat
pwease no steppy
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i support decentralization of any type

11/13/2016 11:09:55 AM

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