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ron
All American
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How ya feelin now?

ugh

2/8/2017 5:26:30 PM

TerdFerguson
All American
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bu bu bu bu but HER EMAIIIIILLLLSLSSSSSSS

2/8/2017 6:27:02 PM

UJustWait84
All American
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I still get annoyed with the false equivalency people refuse to let go of with Clinton/Trump. Yeah, Hillary sucked and the Dems could have done better, but to say she was just as bad as Trump is such stupidity.

2/8/2017 6:30:25 PM

JCE2011
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Yea Trump was way better I agree

2/8/2017 10:20:18 PM

adultswim
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Quote :
"bu bu bu bu but HER EMAIIIIILLLLSLSSSSSSS"


this stupid fucking joke needs to go away.

how are you morons STILL not understanding that by marginalizing voters' opinions, you're part of the reason trump was elected?

fucking hopeless

2/9/2017 12:51:27 AM

thegoodlife3
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she received nearly 3 million more votes

there was a shift in the states that swung Trump after news broke of the latest E-mail probe

this shit isn't that difficult

2/9/2017 1:05:55 AM

moron
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^ nah, that's bullshit.

trump was elected because of good marketing and dirty politics. It's very, very likely had Comey not released the 2nd pointless letter, Hillary would have won.

2/9/2017 1:06:51 AM

adultswim
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^^
yes, she very narrowly won more popular votes than one of the worst presidential candidates of all time. impressive!

^
truly delusional

if either of you really care about what's going on in this country, stop being combatitive pieces of shit and learn to empathize with people you disagree with

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 1:18 AM. Reason : .]

2/9/2017 1:12:57 AM

thegoodlife3
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in what world is getting almost 3 million more votes considered "very narrowly"?

she got nearly the exact amount of votes as Obama in 2012

your narrative doesn't hold up

2/9/2017 1:17:06 AM

adultswim
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2.1% of the vote

against a person who bragged about sexual assault

2/9/2017 1:20:29 AM

thegoodlife3
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I realize that you're relatively new to politics, but presidential elections tend to be close, especially in these insanely polarized times

getting essentially the same amount of votes as the sitting president did during the previous election ain't narrowly winning more votes

it's easy to look up the trend lines pre and post Comey letter

none of that has to do with marginalizing voters' opinions

voters stuck to party lines, he just happened to fluke his way into an Electoral College victory

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 1:30 AM. Reason : .]

2/9/2017 1:27:24 AM

adultswim
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if there weren't other factors at play, the second letter would not have thrown trump the victory


[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 1:34 AM. Reason : that middle class liberal condescension is palpable]

2/9/2017 1:31:53 AM

thegoodlife3
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care to discuss which factors?

nobody is claiming she was a perfect candidate

claiming she lost due to marginalizing voters' opinions is absurd, especially given what we now know

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 1:38 AM. Reason : .]

2/9/2017 1:37:43 AM

adultswim
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Quote :
"bu bu bu bu but HER EMAIIIIILLLLSLSSSSSSS"


this is what i was originally referring to

assuming all trump voters are dipshits/racists/misogynists, failing to address their actual concerns, failing to speak to them like people. the working class is struggling. trump reached out to them. hillary did not.

and now we're also shaming people who voted for him when we should be commiserating.

2/9/2017 1:52:57 AM

moron
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http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/voters-really-did-switch-to-trump-at-the-last-minute/

comey letter swung it to trump

The whole benghazi/email thing was always bogus, and I commend the GOP tactically for making it stick, but it's foolish to pretend Trump was a sea change or inevitable. Fluke is the absolutely right word to describe him.

The most unpopular candidate, the most unpopular new president-- he's a fluke, but we have to live with him as long as legally neccesary.

How does a president start off with a net negative approval rating...? I know your Daddy Trump abhors facts and rational thinking, but we don't have to cast off reality yet.

And the empathy gap has never been with the left. Democrats have been for years trying to push community college, vocational ed, union labor, maternal/paternal leave, healthcare reform-- their entire policy platform was built around helping poor and middle class whites.

They just didn't push racism/sexism/homophobia on top of all this. The empathy gap is not on Democrats to understand the middle Americans, it's for them to understand the majority of American voters. What has the GOP even done in this furious weeks of laws and EOs to help these people...? Have the wealthiest, most goldman-sachs filled, miller/bannon/breitbart white supremacists leadership team?

GOP has deregulated financial advisors, taken away PMI rate drop, undermined public schools in rural areas, allowed corporations to pollute more, removed transparency rules for oil companies, and lots of other big changes to help banks/oil companies. But practically nothing for these supposed 'forgotten whites".

It's going to be a long journey, but democrats are going to have to work hard to unwind all these misperceptions, explain how they've always been champions of the middle class whites, and keep the spotlight on the massive corporatism and trickledown nonsense policies of the GOP and Trump.

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 2:05 AM. Reason : ]

2/9/2017 1:56:39 AM

JesusHChrist
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^^The "Left," or what's left of it, anyway, is seriously in trouble.


Democrats have failed to reach out to the working class and organized labor for decades now. They no longer propose meaningful alternatives to capitalism, and instead actively promote policies that deplete labor of its power, gleefully adopt trade deals that allow multi-national corporations to exploit the working poor in developing countries while simultaneously gutting manufacturing towns across the US. They've walked away from the very real concerns of middle-America who have watched their economic mobility decline. They promoted, nay, ordained Hillary Clinton as the "next in line" candidate who epitomizes every single characteristic of establishment politics that a majority of the country hates.

And in doing so, they allowed for a buffoonish, nationalistic, ideologically bankrupt madman to ascend to power while stoking the flames of racial intolerance and hyper masculinity, who has surrounded himself with some of the most detestable humans in existence who are both capable of and determined to erode the very basic foundation of our democracy.


And instead of using this opportunity to re-calibrate their broken neoliberal policies, Democrats are looking around for people to blame.


It's embarrassing.


[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 2:06 AM. Reason : ]

2/9/2017 2:02:58 AM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"And the empathy gap has never been with the left. Democrats have been for years trying to push community college, vocational ed, union labor, maternal/paternal leave, healthcare reform-- their entire policy platform was built around helping poor and middle class whites."


Nahh... Just look at the campaign contributions of your top Democrats. Democrats are thoroughly in bed with Wall Street, and have been since Bill Clinton and the "New Democrats" of the early '90s took office.


Look, you can't simultaneously be against Corporatism and financed by special interests at the same time. You can't. As soon as so-called "liberals" realize this, they can maybe rise up and clean house at the DNC. Your precious party isn't as clean as you think it is.



This is how it works. Republicans get into power, and immediately push the policy to the far right as possible. Democrats run campaigns against it, get into power, and then DO NOTHING to reverse course. Instead, those policies become entrenched, and Republicans get back into power and push the agenda EVEN FURTHER TO THE RIGHT. This cycle keeps repeating, and eventually you have Steve Bannon on the National Security Council and Jeff Sessions at Attorney General.


IF you think this shit is a "FLUKE," then you're not nearly as politically aware as you think you are.



Just remember, when Trump abuses his executive power via Drone Strikes, or torture, or massive surveillance, it will be the failure of the Obama administration to have not rolled back those authorities when it had the chance.

When Dodd Frank is gutted, and Jamie Dimon gets to write his own rules for bank regulation (God, this is going to be a nightmare), it will have been Bill Clinton's tenure that allowed the repeal of Glass-Steagal.

When our Private Prison Complex explodes, and "economic terrorism" and "protest laws" are used to silence dissent, it will be on the backs of two Democratic terms that oversaw the expanse of our industrialized prison system while doing nothing to curtail its growth.

2/9/2017 2:16:59 AM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
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"assuming all trump voters are dipshits/racists/misogynists"


This is true. Not sure how, at this point, the party can undo this while keeping the huge city constituency though. Made their own bed.

That said, assuming that none or only a minority of Trump voters are that is just as wrong.

Here is the thing, though. We know Democrats (like Republicans) have become slaves to corporate America. That is simply not disputable. How they got there NEEDS to be looked at. But is what Trump did better or more moral? He lied about why jobs went away and then lied about how he will bring them back. His little narcissistic press get togethers for every 150 jobs "he saves" doesn't solve any problems. He has never even addressed the #1 job killer, automation.

It's hard to see how lying is better than ignoring to me. Unfortunately the one guy who got it never had a chance in the Dem primary.

** and I'll note his cabinet is one big smack in the face to those he lied to and quite hypocritical after failing on Clinton for Goldman

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 6:26 AM. Reason : X]

2/9/2017 6:17:36 AM

TerdFerguson
All American
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Quote :
"Quote :
"bu bu bu bu but HER EMAIIIIILLLLSLSSSSSSS"


this stupid fucking joke needs to go away.

how are you morons STILL not understanding that by marginalizing voters' opinions, you're part of the reason trump was elected?

fucking hopeless

"


I'm gonna keep using it because it perfectly encapsulates the false equivalency, low information, susceptibility to shiny objects, and moving goalpost ethics they use to judge others with. I call it the Reality TeeVee Syndrome. Far too many Americans suffer from these things and I personally believe it played a larger role in electing Trump than racism/misogyny blah blah blah. Their opinions deserve some marginalization (as do some Democrat ideas, yes yes, I agree with the vast majority of party critiques blah blah blah).


You know what the worst part is? I'M the one calling my senators trying to save THEIR healthcare, to keep fiduciary rules, etc etc. They do nothing, because shortly after the election they switched back to The Voice from Fox News. 4 years from now, when things have gone from bad to worse, they are gonna emerge from their TV dungeons and be complaining about the exact same shit they've always complained about come election time. They'll be conned by Trump again, believe whatever swiftboat lies the GOP comes up with, again. They'll continue to believe that the only reason their lives are shit are because of "big government" and "illegals."

To be quite honest, I don't think there is any hope of convincing a significant number of these people (of anything).

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 8:07 AM. Reason : I can't convince them so I marginalized them.]

2/9/2017 8:07:18 AM

NyM410
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Again, there are two segments of voters you're talking about and lumping into one.

Yes, a portion of Trump voters have no hope and are horrible people not worthy of our empathy. It wasn't a small number but those people didn't turn the election and will NEVER be voting Democrat no matter the state of the party.

The portion that they are referring to are the long-time Democrat voters who were union members or simply blue-collar which the current Democratic party has marginalized at best and completely ignored at worst. These people were reliably blue and voted Trump or stayed home in numbers large enough to swing the election. They ARE worthy of our understanding and our empathy.

If the party doesn't get this at some point the rubble that it currently is will be reduced to ash.

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 8:20 AM. Reason : And yes, I think they got conned by Trump, but that is because there was no alternative for them]

2/9/2017 8:18:34 AM

TerdFerguson
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Well in my backwoods corner of NC, I don't get to interact with organized labor very much ever. But if you approached any Rust belt union worker that voted Trump and asked "what was the most significant grievance you had toward Hillary or the Democrats," how many are gonna respond with a coherent critique of globalization, or immigration, or healthcare or ANY policy position and how many are gonna start into a rant on emails, Clinton receiving payment from nations, or other inane shit? Again, I don't know, I'm just operating off my experiences with working class folks that voted Trump.

Democrats should just abandon all policy positions and instead try to manufacture a Trump scandal, its more effective.

2/9/2017 8:56:54 AM

jbtilley
All American
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What would a Trump scandal look like? Goading him into shooting someone on 5th Avenue?

2/9/2017 9:27:57 AM

JCE2011
All American
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"Trump has no chance of winning, I'll tell you why"

"Oh shit he won, let me tell you why he won"

-Hacks ITT

2/9/2017 9:52:03 AM

adultswim
All American
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Quote :
"
And instead of using this opportunity to re-calibrate their broken neoliberal policies, Democrats are looking around for people to blame.


It's embarrassing."


There are still people here (itt even) who think I'm a Trump supporter because I dare to reflect on what my "side" is doing wrong.

It really is embarassing to be a leftist these days.

Here's a big tip for everyone making excuses ITT: start paying attention to the people who called Trump's victory half a year ago (Michael Moore would be a great start)

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 11:15 AM. Reason : .]

2/9/2017 11:13:15 AM

adultswim
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^^^^
You just admitted that you don't interact with blue collar workers, but you're perfectly willing to speculate on their intelligence based on what you've seen in the media. You're the epitome of an upper middle class Dem, living in your cozy bubble, and you should seriously reflect on that.

And here's the other problem: it's not just the rust belt. Good careers in this country are becoming more and more difficult to find, wages are stagnating, and that isn't limited to blue collar work.

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 11:46 AM. Reason : .]

2/9/2017 11:43:40 AM

NyM410
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Quote :
"Well in my backwoods corner of NC, I don't get to interact with organized labor very much ever. "


Nor do I. Ever. I actually am in the business which many people rail against from the left and I agree to a large extent with the people who do it even though it's my livelihood. Granted, I don't work for a Goldman or JPM but I'm in that area.

But after this summer I made a concerted effort to seek out and try and see things from a whole plethora of different views and it's opened my eyes quite a bit. If you'd have read my posts from last summer I was all up in identity politics. Live and learn I guess.

Again, I can't stress enough that I have had issues with nearly everything Trump has done but the reason he is even in position to do it is systematic failures on BOTH sides of the ideological spectrum.

2/9/2017 11:57:30 AM

TerdFerguson
All American
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^^No, I admitted to never interacting with blue collar UNION workers that formerly voted for Democrats. I DO interact with blue collar laborers on a weekly basis though as a part of my job, and yes, politics does come up. It is true I'm projecting my discussions with these people onto UNION workers. That might be a mistake, but I tend to assume folks are more alike than they are different among this group of voters.

And when we have political discussions, none of these guys are discussing stagnating wages, globalization, automation, healthcare, education, etc etc. it's always "her EMAILLSSS," "ISIS is flooding our bordersssss," or even "Benghaziiiiiiiiiiii." Try to bring up a current event, and the conversation ALWAYS devolves into how bad nefarious Hillary is/was.

I take them at their word that these are the most important factors in their vote for Trump.

You need to check your interactions with the working class. Make sure you aren't projecting your own concerns about the Democratic Party onto your working class, Trump-voting friends. I'm not assuming anything about these people, I'm literally taking them at their word.

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 12:10 PM. Reason : arrow]

2/9/2017 12:08:50 PM

Shrike
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I love how people are still clinging the post-election narrative of WWC "economic anxiety" as the deciding factor despite all data to contrary.

Fact: most Trump voters did not list the economy as their most important issue,



Fact: nationally and in swing states, voters preferred Hillary on the economy and those who did list it as their most important issue voted for her.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/02/in-nearly-every-swing-state-voters-preferred-hillary-clinton-on-the-economy/?utm_term=.d8e8e184b82f



https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/12/hillary-clinton-working-class/509477/

Quote :
"But among the 52 percent of voters who said economics was the most important issue in the election, Clinton beat Trump by double digits. In the vast majority of swing states, voters said they preferred Clinton on the economy. If the 2016 election had come down to economics exclusively, the working class—which, by any reasonable definition, includes the black, Hispanic, and Asian working classes, too—would have elected Hillary Clinton president."


Furthermore, Hillary campaigned on the economy, it was her most talked about issue by a significant margin,



Now, was their some cross section of former Democratic voters who either voted Trump or went third party/failed to to vote for President? Sure, and had they not Hillary would have won. However, the reasons why they did, as has been noted over and over again, had more to do with trustworthiness and optics (read: emails) than any substantive policy issue. I realize the Bernie folks, despite all their approved candidates and ballot referendums getting smashed by larger margins than Hillary want to keep perpetuating the "economic anxiety" narrative because it absolves them of guilt and blame for hurting Hillary's election chances, but it's simply not true. There are real correctable reasons why the Democrats failed in this election, but we need to stop focusing on the ones that are demonstrably wrong.

2/9/2017 12:12:28 PM

Dentaldamn
All American
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In 2017 if you're not looking at a computer screen all day you're pretty much are fucked. It is not what people want to hear but good paying labor jobs are long gone.

Computer jobs ARE the labor jobs.

2/9/2017 12:13:13 PM

adultswim
All American
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Quote :
"Fact: most Trump voters did not list the economy as their most important issue"


youre reading that poll incorrectly

52% of voters said economy was the most important issue. 41% of that 52% voted for trump

economy was BY FAR the biggest issue

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 12:19 PM. Reason : .]

2/9/2017 12:17:52 PM

Dentaldamn
All American
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when most people say they are "concerned about the economy" what they are really saying is "my town has no jobs and I have zero ability to processes the economy outside of a 10 mile radius around where I am standing at this point in time."

2/9/2017 12:21:22 PM

Shrike
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^^I'm not reading it wrong at all. That chart shows that xenophobia, not the economy, is what carried Trump to victory. If this election was decided purely on economic issues, Hillary would have won huge.

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 12:22 PM. Reason : .]

2/9/2017 12:22:31 PM

adultswim
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No, you read the first chart entirely wrong.

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 12:26 PM. Reason : .]

2/9/2017 12:25:47 PM

kdogg(c)
All American
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Popcorn, anyone?

When you guys are done going nuts, one thing will remain:

Donald Trump is President.

So....next?

2/9/2017 12:27:10 PM

Shrike
All American
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^^And? Care to address the larger point that everything you thought was true about this election was totally wrong?

I'll revise my statement if it makes you happy,

Fact: most voters for whom the economy was their top issue did not vote for Trump.

Better? Now address the actual substance.

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 12:34 PM. Reason : .]

2/9/2017 12:30:55 PM

adultswim
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I never said Trump won on the economy. Trump won because the Democrats are not drawing in enough of the working class. He won enough of them, he didn't need the majority.

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 12:35 PM. Reason : .]

2/9/2017 12:33:27 PM

Shrike
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He won less of them than practically every GOP candidate in modern electoral history!!! We need to come to terms with the fact that the "white" part of WWC was far more predictive than the "working class" part.

2/9/2017 12:39:01 PM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
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You're still missing the point sort of. Why did the reliable democratic vote swing to Trump?

For the fifth time this thread, yes a lot of Trump voters in that demo are unwinnable for Dems. But A TON of the Obama constituency abandoned Clinton. It's silly to think this group of people, who voted for Obama, suddenly became bigots overnight.

2/9/2017 12:43:43 PM

Shrike
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I already addressed that: they didn't like and/or trust her. It's not really that hard to figure out, smear campaigns work (see also: Swift-boating). The real shame of this election is that a lot of the smearing was coming from the left.

[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 12:48 PM. Reason : .]

2/9/2017 12:47:25 PM

adultswim
All American
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And why didn't they like/trust her?

2/9/2017 12:52:03 PM

JesusHChrist
All American
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Quote :
"And when we have political discussions, none of these guys are discussing stagnating wages, globalization, automation, healthcare, education, etc etc. it's always "her EMAILLSSS," "ISIS is flooding our bordersssss," or even "Benghaziiiiiiiiiiii." Try to bring up a current event, and the conversation ALWAYS devolves into how bad nefarious Hillary is/was."


Yeah, that's frustrating. I get it. But you can't blame the low information voter for not having a deep understanding of neoliberal economic policies and globalisation, automation, and the paralyzing effects of unregulated capitalism. They ain't got time for that.

It is the job of progressives and liberals to be a counter to all of those problems. And when the Democratic Party defaulted on that obligation, they allowed a nationalist xenophobe to fill the void and tell those laborers that the source of their problems is because of Muslims/Mexicans/Gays, etc.

If Democrats did a better job these past three decades telling the workers of the world to unite and to seize the means of production, then we'd be having a different discussion. But they didn't do that, because they are corporately funded by the same forces that have been exploiting the working poor for decades.

2/9/2017 12:53:13 PM

Shrike
All American
9025 Posts
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^^Are you asking that question unironically? Here's a hint:



[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 12:55 PM. Reason : resized]

2/9/2017 12:53:55 PM

JesusHChrist
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^Maybe if the D's had substantive policy issues to discuss, they'd get more play. But they really aren't much different when it comes to corporate backing. That's why they had to focus on all of the MANY personal flaws of Trump rather than opposing his policy issues.

Quote :
"Inverted totalitarianism reverses things. It is all politics all of the time but a politics largely untempered by the political. Party squabbles are occasionally on public display, and there is a frantic and continuous politics among factions of the party, interest groups, competing corporate powers, and rival media concerns. And there is, of course, the culminating moment of national elections when the attention of the nation is required to make a choice of personalities rather than a choice between alternatives. What is absent is the political, the commitment to finding where the common good lies amidst the welter of well-financed, highly organized, single-minded interests rabidly seeking governmental favors and overwhelming the practices of representative government and public administration by a sea of cash"


--Sheldon Wolin. Democracy Incorporated

A good book worth reading for anyone interested.



[Edited on February 9, 2017 at 1:03 PM. Reason : ]

2/9/2017 1:02:00 PM

TerdFerguson
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Quote :
"It is the job of progressives and liberals to be a counter to all of those problems. And when the Democratic Party defaulted on that obligation"


I think you are absolutely right that Democrats should have been more effective at explaining these problems, coming up with relatively, simple solutions, and then pursuing legislative actions to enact those solutions. Hell, just giving working class folks the LANGUAGE they need to discuss the problems would have been meaningful.

But come on man:
Quote :
"If Democrats did a better job these past three decades telling the workers of the world to unite and to seize the means of production"


Do you really think that is gonna fly with these people?

2/9/2017 1:05:33 PM

adultswim
All American
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Well it almost fucking did! Despite the countereffort.

2/9/2017 1:09:39 PM

JesusHChrist
All American
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Probably not. Just being provocative.


However, look into the history of the "Wobblies," and the IWW, and you'll be surprised how leftist they were/are. You can even look back to the Scott Walker protests in the Wisconsin for a recent example of union organizing power

2/9/2017 1:10:26 PM

Shrike
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I definitely think Hillary needed some sort of signature policy issue to campaign on, like Obama did with healthcare. Obama's administration warned Dems that they needed to start taking automation seriously and come up with real legislative solutions to the economic problems it's causing. That should be the focus for 2020.

2/9/2017 1:11:21 PM

TerdFerguson
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^^^You talking about Bernie? Cause the guy had to go out of his way a hundred times to explain how social democracy differs from communism, etc. By far, that was the stupidest attack on him, and yet it was still somehow vaguely effective.

2/9/2017 1:21:06 PM

adultswim
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Yep, but people are starting to get it.

2/9/2017 1:23:35 PM

JesusHChrist
All American
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We had actual communists during the new deal.

One could argue (and I'm going to) that the far Left is needed to counter balance our drift toward rising fascism. Now, I'm not a communist, but I reject our status quo Democrats who have morphed into right of center corporatists. And fuck them if they are going to try and shame the Left for not falling in line. We don't owe them our vote, and if they want it, they can come and get it. But they need to step closer to us, not the other way around.

2/9/2017 1:35:28 PM

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