53 pages and no collusion. Everyone agrees there’s no collusion.

3/21/2018 8:08:50 PM

Quote :

"My disconnect stems from not understanding the difference between american oligarchs influencing the election and russian oligarchs influencing the election. One is the backbone of our political system and the other is considered war. Anyone who isn't a firm believer of trickle down should see them as essentially the same."

This is definitely a fair disconnect/question.

[Edited on March 21, 2018 at 9:42 PM. Reason : a]

3/21/2018 9:40:48 PM

Here's a fun topic to bring up at a cocktail party when there's a good mix of Russian (or former USSR) folks and Americans who know each other fairly well. Ask the Americans who their favorite US president in US history is, and you'll probably get a variety of responses and a semi-legit discussion. Ask the Russians about their 'favorite' ruler (Tsar, Romanov, Emperor, or president) and they will just laugh.

3/21/2018 10:49:48 PM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/06/26/for-russians-stalin-is-the-most-outstanding-figure-in-world-history-putin-is-next/?utm_term=.a4a8d194ffb3

Quote :

"MOSCOW — More Russians consider Joseph Stalin the “most outstanding person” in world history than any other leader, according to a poll released Monday. Tied for second in the same survey is the man who has done more than anyone to restore the notorious Soviet dictator's reputation, Russian President Vladimir Putin. The poll by the Levada Center asked a representative sample of 1,600 Russians to name the “top 10 most outstanding people of all time and all nations.” It also compiled a list of all 20 names that received more than 6 percent of the vote. Without prompting, 38 percent named Stalin, followed by Putin at 34 percent, in a tie with Alexander Pushkin, the renowned 19th-century poet often referred to as “the Shakespeare of Russia.” Putin's 34 percent is his highest ranking on this list since he came to power 17 years ago. Stalin has actually slipped a few notches: He polled 42 percent in 2012, the first time he topped the survey of the world's most influential people, which has been conducted by Levada and its predecessors since 1989. But there's little doubt of the connectivity between the popularity of the former and current Kremlin occupants."

Anyway, the Russians and other Eastern Europeans I meet and spend time with are split. Some Russians detest everything about the USSR and people like Putin. Some love Putin. Seems hit or miss. With respect to Ukrainians I know, there's a very clear geographical distinction in that the westerners hate Russia and Putin and the easterners love Russia/Putin. I went to a Russian art museum a few times this past winter and most of the people there older, grew up in the USSR and hated all of it. But I'd expect that from the art segment given that they are people prone to wanting to express opinions and freedom and that was not really allowed under that regime.

[Edited on March 21, 2018 at 11:08 PM. Reason : a]

3/21/2018 11:05:59 PM

I should have probably specified relatively "Americanized" Russians, since they're clearly not the same as actual Russians living in Russia.

Oh, and the Crimea issue is going to be night/day depending on who you talk to, so I just keep my mouth shut



[Edited on March 21, 2018 at 11:15 PM. Reason : My fiancé is from Belarus. Fun fact: it's the only dictatorship left in Europe. ]

3/21/2018 11:11:57 PM

^Nah I mean that's the thing that got me - a few of the "Americanized" ones are split too. That utterly blew my mind. One of my exes is Ukrainian, from the west. Two of her best friends are a married Russian couple. Her and the female friend have lived here for the same amount of time. The husband was born here.

Ex hates Russia. The married couple supports Putin, even the American-born husband.

An American-born Ukrainian I know from work supports Putin as well.

I've never asked any of them specifically about Crimea, though.

[Edited on March 21, 2018 at 11:17 PM. Reason : a]

3/21/2018 11:15:17 PM

Probably not best to try and generalize people from the largest country on earth (it spans 11 time zones!), and my experience with West Coast Russians living around SF probably differs significantly from East Coast Russians living in NC that you know

Anyway, my point was that most Americans grow up with American exceptionalism and pride in our "democracy" and we choose political parties that align with our values. And up until recently, I'd argue most of us felt like we had a choice about who to elect to govern us. I don't think I've met a Russian (or Eastern European) that has shared this experience. Also worth noting: growing up in Soviet Russia versus post-Soviet Russia is going to yield significantly different accounts/experiences.

[Edited on March 21, 2018 at 11:26 PM. Reason : Ya'll should still try this "cocktail" convo tho]

3/21/2018 11:22:44 PM

Oh, I'm in NYC, haha. But still, east coast NYC is quite a bit different from west coast SF.

Quote :

"I don't think I've met a Russian (or Eastern European) that has shared this experience."

Definitely.

[Edited on March 21, 2018 at 11:26 PM. Reason : a]

3/21/2018 11:25:38 PM

My fiancé moved from Brooklyn to SF. I haven't been to Brighton Beach, but it sounds pretty different than, um, Russian Hill in SF

3/21/2018 11:27:25 PM

SMH The problem is you're talking to Russians whose people FLED to America. They mostly came to America for a reason and are likely Anti-state for the same reason they left. Their parents were either persecuted by the government directly (jews) or were corrupt and fled and pretend they were persecuted by the government (white emigre). Upon arrival in the US, they were instantly considered better than a good portion of the population here so they had good reason to be ultra-biased against their country.

Every actual Russian I've ever met is pro-putin and when I ask them about Putin (I always do), they get passionate about the topic and sometimes use some "whataboutisms" or change the subject because they realize westerners will call them antisemitic or some other name for supporting their country. The "Russians" in brighton beach are "Russian-American" and even if they were pro-Putin or pro-USSR they would realize the sensitivity of the people around them and keep it to themselves.

If you want to meet Russians who are Pro-Russia, you're going to have to stop talking to descendants of the capitalist class, leave the west, and probably even go to Russia. Proud Russians have little desire to move to the US. You have to remember most of their ancestors were peasant farmers before the revolution.


[Edited on March 22, 2018 at 1:57 AM. Reason : imagine if you spent your whole life only talking to native americans whose people were slaughtered]

3/22/2018 1:43:13 AM

Earl said:

Quote :

""My disconnect stems from not understanding the difference between american oligarchs influencing the election and russian oligarchs influencing the election. One is the backbone of our political system and the other is considered war. Anyone who isn't a firm believer of trickle down should see them as essentially the same.""

I've already explained the differences pretty clearly, but you just want to be obtuse and make dumb claims like "All Russians are Pro-Putin" and bring up American genocide of Native Americans as if the two situations are remotely comparable. You know exactly why Russia is a "democracy" in name only, and you're trying to play dumb and create a false equivalence between their corrupt and unstable political system and ours. Shut the fuck up

3/22/2018 2:14:58 AM

^That was my quote, not Earl

I didn't say all russian's are pro-putin. I said all Russian's I've met (I'm not counting Russian-Americans). His approval rating is in the 70s so it works out that way if you are meeting Russians well enough in the system to speak fluent english. They know there is rampant corruption. You are the one who seems to think corruption and greed bears a flag.

Our government's approval rating is in the teens.

Americans (including russian-americans) generally hate the Russian government and Russian's generally approve of it. Of course its not all but its an overwhleming majority. I didn't say anything about democracy. Pluralism=/=Approval. Pluralism and "democracy" has allowed the awful leadership. I personally believe authoritarian governments can function a lot better than a flawed democracy like we have but thats another thread.

I also don't see how you can say their system is so unstable after complaining for 53 pages about them being able to use 12 people and facebook to flip our entire political system upside down.

Quote :

"and bring up American genocide of Native Americans as if the two situations are remotely comparable"

Soviet/Russian atrocities aren't comparable to American ones (also another thread)


[Edited on March 22, 2018 at 2:47 AM. Reason : this earl thing is getting old]


[Edited on March 22, 2018 at 2:50 AM. Reason : You seem to be confused about the distinction between "russians" and "russian americans"]

3/22/2018 2:46:10 AM

You guys got hardcore Earl'd

3/22/2018 7:37:48 AM

^^^^lol I literally pointed out people here and from over there who also support the state and Putin. you derailed on this one bud.

https://theintercept.com/2018/03/21/jared-kushner-saudi-crown-prince-mohammed-bin-salman/

3/22/2018 9:40:04 AM

^^

3/22/2018 9:41:07 AM

it sounds like youre still only talking to people who are here which is poor sampling technique even if youre getting the full spectrum

[Edited on March 22, 2018 at 11:04 AM. Reason : assuming you live in the west. if not, my bad]

3/22/2018 11:03:25 AM

nah I live in nyc

3/22/2018 11:18:30 AM

I take the B train to work. I do not speak to Russians on the train tho.

3/22/2018 11:20:12 AM

lol

3/22/2018 11:21:49 AM

when i refer to the west, im not talking about the west coast

3/22/2018 11:42:24 AM

Putin is so popular he has to bar his major opposition from running in the election and had 10s of thousands across the country chanting “Putin is a thief” on at least 5 different occasions in 2017 alone (including Putin’s birthday). They only arrested a few thousand and only a handful of the organizers disappeared, so he’s totes popular guyz.

3/22/2018 11:42:43 AM

Quote :

"His approval rating is in the 70s so it works out that way if you are meeting Russians well enough in the system to speak fluent english. They know there is rampant corruption. You are the one who seems to think corruption and greed bears a flag."

Russians living in Russia not only not only know there is rampant corruption, they mostly don't care. The ones that do and have the intellect and tenacity to leave, head to places like the US, Canada, the UK, etc because, well, these places have quite a bit more freedom, relatively speaking. Did you even both to skim the article Cherokee posted? The one that has Stalin as Russian's most admirable leader?

The reason this fucking thread exists in the first place is because there's mounting evidence that Trump rigged an election with the help from his corrupt Russian friends. And yes, I'm quite aware of the difference between Russians living in Russia, recently arrived to the US Russian immigrants (documented or not), naturalized Russian-American citizens, and Russian-Americans born in the US (1st generation and longer). I was talking about the people who either fled to the US or who's families fled to the US in search of more freedom and opportunity. They know the difference between American politics and Russian politics, and they voted with their feet.

Quote :

" I personally believe authoritarian governments can function a lot better than a flawed democracy like we have but thats another thread."

I can think of ONE example where I'd agree, and that's Singapore. Unfortunately, this has ZERO to do with the topic of discussion, so yeah create a thread and be prepared to be flamed.

Quote :

" I also don't see how you can say their system is so unstable after complaining for 53 pages about them being able to use 12 people and facebook to flip our entire political system upside down."

The last time I checked, Russia doesn't seem to be a prime destination for American ex pats disgruntled with our current state of affairs. In fact, most people immigrating to Russia are from places that are worse than Russia, like Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Moldova, etc. Americans are rightly pissed that an illiterate, bankruptcy prone, washed up reality TV star is trying to use the Russian model of tyranny and suppression to run our state of affairs.

3/22/2018 12:04:03 PM

you guys got dragged off topic as fuck

3/22/2018 12:19:54 PM

Back on topic.

Dowd out:
https://www.npr.org/2018/03/22/596056956/lead-lawyer-on-trumps-team-handling-special-counsel-russia-probe-resigns?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20180322

3/22/2018 12:43:36 PM

^^

^

3/22/2018 1:16:45 PM

Quote :

"EXCLUSIVE: "DNC hacker" Guccifer 2.0 was, in fact, an officer of Russia's military intelligence directorate"

Roger Stone, call your lawyer.

https://amp.thedailybeast.com/exclusive-lone-dnc-hacker-guccifer-20-slipped-up-and-revealed-he-was-a-russian-intelligence-officer

3/22/2018 7:22:03 PM

If true, some of you people kinda owe Hill Dawg an apology

3/22/2018 8:56:10 PM

Turns out HRC was actually the perfect candidate and everything she was ever known for was just Russian misinformation all along. I feel so dumb right now.


[Edited on March 22, 2018 at 10:30 PM. Reason : under contsstructtion]

Quote :

" I was talking about the people who either fled to the US or who's families fled to the US in search of more freedom and opportunity. They know the difference between American politics and Russian politics, and they voted with their feet. "

You're still missing the reason why they left and that they were a minority of the whole population

Quote :

"The last time I checked, Russia doesn't seem to be a prime destination for American ex pats disgruntled with our current state of affairs. In fact, most people immigrating to Russia are from places that are worse than Russia, like Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Moldova, etc."

Its not a nation of immigration and is relatively poor compared to the US but there are examples.
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-c1-black-russian-americans-20141119-story.html
https://news.stanford.edu/2017/03/08/cold-war-african-american-perspective/

The difference is we're mostly talking about people who had trouble in the US because of their skin color vs people who had trouble in the US because they felt entitled to an unfair share of resources. Capitalists

Quote :

" Did you even both to skim the article Cherokee posted? The one that has Stalin as Russian's most admirable leader? "

I guess I spent all of my WAPO quota on political hitpieces. You'll have to post them for me to read them. I get it though. A lot of Americans think washington was most admirable american leader.


You hate Stalin and don't get how anyone else could like him. Gotta step out of your own shoes sometimes. Stalin did some bad things that may have been necessary at the time but he brought so much progress as well. Dubois had an interesting perspective.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/biographies/1953/03/16.htm

Quote :

""all Negroes', Jews' and Foreign-born" Americans' remembrance of Joseph Stalin, who "fought prejudice and particularism, and helped build the first modern state which outlawed race discrimination.""

Mao was also pretty great. So was Castro. All of the poeple you think are boogeymen are considered great by others



[Edited on March 22, 2018 at 10:52 PM. Reason : good ole white privilege]

3/22/2018 10:29:08 PM

Quote :

"Turns out HRC was actuallythe perfect a better candidate than Jill Stein and everything she was ever known for was just I fell for a lot of Russian misinformation all along because I can't read or think critically. I feel so dumb right now."

FTFY Earl

[Edited on March 22, 2018 at 10:55 PM. Reason : .]

3/22/2018 10:54:31 PM

Once again, as in your Russian examples, people who see things from your perspective are smart and people who have different perspectives are dumb. You have refused to see any other perspective, and even though you pride yourself on superior reading ability, none of the literature I've shared has registered. I've failed to show you my perspective and don't know what else I can do.

3/22/2018 11:05:10 PM

Not really, no. You're just a dumb troll that likes to champion contrarian viewpoints purely for the sake of being annoying and derailing threads. You may not do it 100% of the time, but you do it often enough for people to be sick of it.

3/22/2018 11:13:21 PM

~100% of the time its me probing to try figure out why you aren't aware of the so-called "contrarian viewpoint" that I happen to hold.

You say I'm trolling and derailing yet continue to call me earl even after I've told you I'm not earl. Again, this is you projecting your own opinions and beliefs as the absolute reality. Since other people on here also said I was earl, it ha become the popular norm. Technically, I'm being contrarian for saying I'm not earl. Its a perfect example of how a herd mentality operates to create its own set of accepted facts.

[Edited on March 22, 2018 at 11:53 PM. Reason : the earl thing is either you purposefully trolling or is evidence of a deeper flaw in reasoning ]

3/22/2018 11:51:36 PM

^^He is definitely not a troll all of the time. Should give him credit when he makes good points, because he does sometimes.

^^^^^That post's credit was killed during the first sentence, honestly.

3/23/2018 12:45:24 AM

Sorry I just caught this (my last post was via phone on the subway):

Quote :

"Stalin did some bad things that may have been necessary at the time but he brought so much progress as well."

What in the living fuck was going through your head typing this? Stalin brought progress?! Name one single thing that Stalin did that was necessary aside from him dying finally.

Good lord...

Quote :

"Mao was also pretty great. "

My god.

Seriously - I sincerely am asking - is this a troll post? I am astonished.

We're getting off topic again, btw, at least for this thread's topic.

[Edited on March 23, 2018 at 1:21 AM. Reason : a]

3/23/2018 1:16:14 AM

Hitler loved dogs, and dog people are great. Hilter was loved by many, so I don't know why people can't place themselves in Nazi sympathizers' shoes and try to see things from their perspective.

3/23/2018 1:18:47 AM

Earl getting things done in here last night..

3/23/2018 8:20:29 AM

Quote :

"He is definitely not a troll all of the time. "

yes he is. has been for many years. why you ask? i really don't know.

3/23/2018 8:56:14 AM

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/379989-gowdy-trumps-lawyers-doing-disservice-by-framing-mueller-probe-around

I enjoyed this podcast.

3/23/2018 9:43:01 PM

Quote :

"What in the living fuck was going through your head typing this? Stalin brought progress?! Name one single thing that Stalin did that was necessary aside from him dying finally. Good lord..."

He was one of the most influential people to ever live. The first thing that comes to mind are workers rights. You have to look at the Georgia Russia before Stalin and after to appreciate his legacy. Not just focus on the bad things that happened while he was in power.

-He was a major contributor to the Bolshevik revolution
-The west got good labor laws to counter Stalin's progress in the USSR.
-His actions that are mostly noted for death actually lifted the USSR repidly out of poverty into being the most powerful nation in the world. even with all of the deaths, he increased life expectancy and set the standard (you'll see this again with mao)
-He defeated Hitler

I guess you skipped the literature posted above but i'll repost the du bois quote

Quote :

"""all Negroes', Jews' and Foreign-born" Americans' remembrance of Joseph Stalin, who "fought prejudice and particularism, and helped build the first modern state which outlawed race discrimination."""

Quote :

"My god. Seriously - I sincerely am asking - is this a troll post? I am astonished."

Again, look at China before and after Mao and ask yourself if he did well.

I like this quote because out of all the things on Mao's long list of accomplishments, this one is rarely discussed but still relevant. Mao advanced the role of women in a way that is still needed today

Quote :

""Under capitalism, the female half of the human race suffers under a double yoke. The working woman and peasant woman are oppressed by capital; but in addition to that, even in the most democratic of bourgeois republics, they are, firstly, in an inferior position because the law denies them equality with men, and secondly, and this is most important, they are "in domestic slavery," they are "domestic slaves," crushed by the most petty, most menial, most arduous, and most stultifying work of the kitchen, and by isolated domestic, family economy in general.""

Racial and gender equality have only recently started to be embraced in the west so the accomplishments of these two men easily went unnoticed at the time.

Quote :

"Scholars outside of China also credit Mao for boosting literacy (only 20% of the population could read in 1949, compared to 65.5% thirty years later), doubling life expectancy, a near doubling of the population, and developing China's industry and infrastructure, paving the way for its position as a world power"

To get the full story, good and bad, you're going to have to do more than going to NYC chinatown and asking people they think of Mao. Mao is a beloved figure in China.



People you respect have repeated that these men were the definition of pure evil over and over. Eventually, it sticks regardless of what the facts are because its all you've ever heard. You have to recognize that you live in a system that has always been threatened by the idea of equality, and probe outside sources for information recognizing the perspective of all sources . Its just like here. If someone calls me an Earl troll enough times, people start to believe it just because.

[Edited on March 24, 2018 at 12:03 AM. Reason : the same people basically worship our founding fathers]

also why i LOVED this quote
https://youtu.be/G8-VB-XkjKQ?t=25s

[Edited on March 24, 2018 at 12:07 AM. Reason : you think our countrys so innocent]

3/24/2018 12:01:48 AM

3/24/2018 12:26:50 AM

lol worker rights. for the workers in the gulags i presume. in the nation where the term "concentration camp" was invented. lolol.

i didn't realize progress necessitated the systematic murder of tens of millions of people in russia and china.

officially done.

[Edited on March 24, 2018 at 10:01 AM. Reason : a]

3/24/2018 9:59:43 AM

you did exactly what i just said you were doing and came back talking about only the bad things. the same things yoube always been told while ignoring all of the overall progress.

[Edited on March 24, 2018 at 11:50 AM. Reason : couldnt be bothered with pesky facts]

3/24/2018 11:27:54 AM

we just found out guccifer 2.0 (who Roger Stone has admitted to communicating with) was russian GRU and you guys in here letting yourselves get earl'd over some nonsense

smdh

3/24/2018 1:03:00 PM

So, what are we to make of George Nader's reported immunity agreement? Is he likely to offer up significant information regarding Jared Kushner, Erik Prince, Elliott Broidy, or all of the above?

3/26/2018 3:32:38 PM

A lot of the Clinton minions had immunity agreements just to ensure they gave reliable, trustworthy information.

I don’t find it too significant on this basis, at least as far as implicating Nader too deeply. The fact he got an agreement might be a sign he was just an outside player.

[Edited on March 26, 2018 at 5:48 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on March 26, 2018 at 5:48 PM. Reason : ]

3/26/2018 5:47:45 PM

Nader is a middleman which means his immunity agreement is in exchange for information/testimony/etc. that will implicate and confirm who is involved on both sides. He'll also speak to motivation, reasoning, etc.

Nader's immunity is significant primarily because of his role in this.

3/26/2018 6:15:31 PM

http://theweek.com/speedreads/763540/newly-uncovered-fbi-report-alleges-russian-agents-murdered-potential-justice-department-informant

3/27/2018 1:29:37 PM

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/27/politics/alex-van-der-zwaan-memorandum/index.html

3/28/2018 8:16:15 AM

that's the strongest link to date for colluding

at this point it's basically just about building a RICO case and figuring out what Trump knew and when

3/28/2018 3:35:32 PM

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/29/politics/mueller-gates-russia-investigation-contacts/index.html

3/29/2018 6:17:43 PM