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TreeTwista10
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"UJustWait84
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it's a good thing i'm not really a Warriors fan, because that shit was devastating

5/7/2013 1:07:13 AM"

4/20/2017 1:35:20 AM

face
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Holy hell JCE is using both of the correct arguments.

1) PER is hot garbage and was widely discredited over a decade ago by analytics. It doesn't, in fact, measure efficiency and is not correlated to winning. The measure is heavily and I mean HEAVILY biased by usage rate. With so much better data available citing PER is not remotely defensible.

2) Its completely absurd to State someone should win the mvp because they averaged a triple double.

First of all, harden and LeBron virtually averaged the same thing
They just did it while creating efficient shots for themselves and their teammates. Westbrook just pounds the crap out of the ball half the game. He's not the guy you want when trying to build a championship team because he doesn't make you a great offensive team the way those other guys do.

Second of all, defensive rebounds have been greatly devalued as teams punt offensive rebounds in order to get back in transition defense following missed shots. With all the long rebounds off staggering records of missed 3pt attempts there are plenty up for grabs.

Okc allows Westbrook to corral virtually all of them so he can push the ball in transition which is why he has such a high percentage of "uncontested rebounds".

Also he snags their opponents missed free throws to stat pad.

And lastly he does not contest opponents 3pt attempts as he prefers to hunt for rebounds in the paint. Deandre Jordan a fucking center closed out on more 3s than Westbrook did this season. That makes ZERO sense.

Westbrook is terrific if you wanna take a 35 win team and make it win 48 games. But he ain't ever going to be as impactful as a guy like kawhi, LeBron, or harden in a playoff series because they enable their entire team to function.



[Edited on April 20, 2017 at 3:15 AM. Reason : A]

4/20/2017 3:03:51 AM

face
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By the way don't sleep on the Spurs. They have the 2nd best chance to win the title in my opinion.

If they can slide past Houston they give golden State some interesting matchup problems.

I don't trust popovich though. He tends to ride Parker and ginobili a lot in the playoffs to the Spurs detriment

4/20/2017 3:19:07 AM

jbrick83
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Last night was a perfect example of who is most valuable. Westbrook sucked donkey balls in the 4th quarter when he tried to put the game on his shoulders...but you really couldn't blame him. Through three quarters they were +18 when he was in the game -15 when he was on the bench. They would build a solid lead, he would go to the bench, and Houston would cut it to 3 or so points. He tried to prevent that from happening in the 4th and essentially shot them out of the game.

Harden on the bench...+2. Harden in the game...+2.

One guy has a great team and system around them. One guy basically has a bunch of bums (Oladipo is slightly above average and the rest of them are marginal 2nd unit NBA players).

4/20/2017 7:08:41 AM

rwoody
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"By the way don't sleep on the Spurs. They have the 2nd best chance to win the title in my opinion. "


Hey guys, NBA expert here: the 2nd best team has the 2nd best chance to win the title. HAVE I BLOWN YOUR MIND

Quote :
"I don't trust popovich though."


The NBA coach who is widely regarded as the best, HE'S ACTUALLY BAD! BOOOOMMMM

[Edited on April 20, 2017 at 9:25 AM. Reason : Coach]

4/20/2017 9:22:50 AM

JCE2011
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That isn't an accusation of being a "Bad couach". Loyalty to players can be a strength and weakness for a coach.

Pop def overplayed old man Duncan in his last season. He will probably have some bias towards keeping and overplaying Manu and Spin Cycle despite their age.

4/20/2017 9:42:43 AM

jbrick83
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Duncan's minutes went down his last three years...with his biggest drop-off in his last year.

4/20/2017 10:16:20 AM

UJustWait84
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Aww shucks Tree, I guess the jig is up now since your diligent sleuthing has revealed that I made a comment in 2013 that insinuates I was never a lifelong Warriors fan. I could counter your accusations and contend that a bandwagon or fair weather fan probably wouldn't have even watched the entire series in the first place, let alone taken the time to post a likely drunken comment after a game 7 loss, but clearly you've exposed me and my house of lies for all of TWW and its dozen of NBA fans who come here for expert analysis and insight to see and disparage.

I do take issue with the bandwagon fan claim, however, since I clearly watched and followed them before they were even prohibitive Vegas favorites. Feel free to call me a fair weather fan all you want, because here in California, there's plenty of other shit to do if the local team ain't winning- I'll freely admit it since there's no one else in real life around who's going to actually shame me for being one- most of us are... I still love the A's, but you're not going to read a bunch of my posts until after the All-Star break, and it's only unless they're winning. The 9ers suck ass, but hey, the Super Bowl party I went to a few years ago was pretty dope and they were a completion away from winning.

In the meantime, have fun being "a fan of the players instead of actual teams", but given the OKC series right now, you might want to adopt a new favorite player to root for instead of Russell Westbrook, since he'll likely be sitting at home next week.

Being a State fan has made most of us jaded and bitter and jealous of anyone else's success . Sorry the Panthers didn't pan out two years ago, but maybe one day they will and you can take solace in the fact that you wrote about being a "true" fan of the team (being a fan of NFL players is so, so lame) when people hate on them for winning.

4/20/2017 10:34:50 AM

JCE2011
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Wow what a sports fan

4/20/2017 2:45:06 PM

dmspack
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i couldn't follow that post ^^ but what does this even mean

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"being a fan of NFL players is so, so lame"


the way i enjoy sports is better than the way you enjoy sports?

4/20/2017 6:03:28 PM

UJustWait84
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I'm mocking jbrick and others who claim they're 'better' and more knowledgeable 'fans' because they're only fans of individual NBA players and don't care about actual NBA teams. It's funny how these same people are huge Panthers fans though. My guess is that if the Hornets were the top seed in the East and made back to back Finals appearances, they'd change their tune.

It is, perhaps, one of the dumbest arguments I've ever read on TWW.

4/20/2017 6:32:02 PM

TreeTwista10
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jbrick hates the Panthers

4/20/2017 6:40:08 PM

thegoodlife3
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^^ watching more games regardless of having a favorite team vs. only watching one team by definition makes one more of a fan of the NBA

what about that argument is dumb?

4/20/2017 6:46:32 PM

UJustWait84
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^^maybe I'm confusing him and thegoodlife

they take turns jerking each other off when they try to troll me

^ who says I ONLY watch Ws games? I don't have time to watch every other team throughout the season, but when it's a good matchup like Cavs/Spurs, or Celts/Wizards, or Clippers/Rockets I'll tune in and catch some of it if I can. If you read this thread that I created, I'm one of the only people who's actually tried to discuss the actual playoff games while everyone else is crying about Westbrook.



[Edited on April 20, 2017 at 6:53 PM. Reason : .]

4/20/2017 6:46:57 PM

thegoodlife3
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what argument do you find dumb?

and the only one who whines about Westbrook is you

and a disagreement with a dumb take isn't trolling, it's a disagreement

[Edited on April 20, 2017 at 7:16 PM. Reason : .]

4/20/2017 7:03:19 PM

stowaway
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Refs are doing everything they can to keep the Cavs in the game.

4/20/2017 8:58:02 PM

packboozie
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LOL you mean the best player took this shit over

4/20/2017 9:38:13 PM

jbrick83
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I'm more knowledgeable because I've been staying up watching NBA games until the wee hours of the morning since I was 8 years old. It's pretty much the only sports watching habit that I've told my wife to go fuck herself because I'm not stopping.

And I hope people are appreciating Lebron right now. He's just ridiculous. Part Magic, part Jordan, part beast. There has never been a player with this skill set before. Closing in on GOAT...especially after this years efficient season and performance in this first round.

4/20/2017 10:05:07 PM

thegoodlife3
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he's got a fuck ton of minutes on him, but he's only 32....

absolutely insane

4/20/2017 10:37:22 PM

jbrick83
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I'm a Westbrook jock-sniffer through and through...but the two best players this year are Lebron and Kawhi. Harden and Westbrook are in the distant second group and any of the Warriors fuckboys are rounding up third.

4/20/2017 10:57:59 PM

thegoodlife3
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I love Lebron, but the Cavs only winning 51 games takes his season down a notch (relative to the other 3)

my top 4 this season: Harden, Westbrook, Kahwi, and Lebron

4/20/2017 11:29:06 PM

jocristian
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^^ Agree.

^ The cavs have their issues, but I don't think it is a Lebron thing. It's pretty telling that Lebron would still be the #1 pick this season if we were to start over and re-draft.

4/21/2017 8:23:36 AM

stowaway
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^6 Posted before lebron went off. There was a stretch in the 3rd that was ridiculously one sided that killed the pacers momentum and they fell apart at both ends during that 4 minute stretch. Before that it was two completely different teams playing a different game. A few calls in a row against them and a few possessions with swallowed whistles and Indiana fell apart. They might lose by 40 in game 4.

4/21/2017 8:38:09 AM

jbrick83
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Cavs D was abysmal the second half of the season. While Lebron wasn't Kawhi on the defense end, he was still probably the second best defender after Thompson. So I just can't put their low win total on a guy putting up 26, 9, and 9, shooting 55%.

I do worry about his FT shooting a little bit. He's going to get roasted if that costs them another championship.

4/21/2017 9:45:36 AM

MONGO
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Rondo out indefinitely with right thumb fracture. Maybe this swings back to the Celtics.

Not that this series really matters... I think Washington would beat either team in 6.

4/21/2017 12:19:19 PM

jbrick83
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Really would like to see ATL make this a good series. With Rondo out, the Wizards have a cakewalk to the conference finals.

4/22/2017 6:08:41 PM

jbrick83
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That Spurs/Grizz game was sick.

4/23/2017 7:56:47 AM

HOOPS SHALOM
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"I'm a Westbrook jock-sniffer"


This expression is so gross.

4/23/2017 9:01:15 AM

laxman490
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Does Donovan actually say anything to the team in the huddle?

4/23/2017 6:06:37 PM

justinh524
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The non-Westbrook Thunder players are dumb.

4/23/2017 6:07:17 PM

sag1804
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Westbrook is my press conference MVP!

4/24/2017 2:06:15 AM

TreeTwista10
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That offensive foul on Harden is the epitome of his game. I can't stand players whose go-to move is waiting to get fouled.

[Edited on April 25, 2017 at 9:56 PM. Reason : Wade is similar]

4/25/2017 9:55:46 PM

TreeTwista10
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UJustWait doesn't have to endure anymore of his least favorite superstar

4/25/2017 10:56:03 PM

UJustWait84
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Yeah, I'm glad that series is over in 5 like I predicted.

FWIW that dreadful style of flopping all the time to get to the line? Your boy Russ only had three fewer FT attempts than Harden this post season, so there's that.

4/26/2017 2:36:18 AM

LudaChris
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But Russ also played a fuck ton and took a ton of shots, his usage was insane.

If he was Superman and could play the entire game they would have probably won the series. Think they were -58 for his time off the court. Hell last night he sat for about 3 minutes to start the 4th and Rockets went on a 14-4 run to take control of the game.

4/26/2017 9:39:23 AM

jbrick83
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That series obviously showed who the MVP was. Russ FTMFW.

The +/- when he was on and off the court was just insane.

They need to find some shooters and Billy D needs to learn how to coach.

4/26/2017 9:55:22 AM

MONGO
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RW had a usage rate of 46% last night. For comparison, when MJ played the monstars in space jam, he had a usage rate of 44%.

[Edited on April 26, 2017 at 10:00 AM. Reason : .]

4/26/2017 9:59:51 AM

LudaChris
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^I too watched Sportscenter this morning.

4/26/2017 10:34:47 AM

jocristian
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"The +/- when he was on and off the court was just insane. "


I mean, I know it's popular to shit on his supporting cast these days, but this is arguably a better supporting cast than KD and Westbrook had when they were a hair away from the NBA finals last year. Perhaps having to watch Russ play hero ball and never being asked to contribute or barely being involved in the offense all year had something to do with the supporting cast sucking. Last year Stephen Adams as the new hotness, people were justifying Kanter's max contract and Oladipo is a huge upgrade over Payne. But this year they are all dogshit? Nah. I just don't get how RW can get all the credit for his stats (including 10 assists a game) and not receive any of the blame for them losing.

4/26/2017 2:29:55 PM

jbrick83
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^think about what you just posted.

4/26/2017 3:32:04 PM

rflong
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"RW had a usage rate of 46% last night. For comparison, when MJ played the monstars in space jam, he had a usage rate of 44%."


The real questions to ask are what Michael J Fox's usage was when he was the wolf (not that bullshit at the end when he's human and the fat guy is supposedly hitting threes shooting from his hip) and what was Urekel's usage on Family Matters in that episode when he magically becomes a baller. Those are real questions.

4/26/2017 4:43:22 PM

dmspack
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^^^but those teams actually had KD. this team doesn't. so this team definitely is worse outside of RW.

4/26/2017 5:47:03 PM

UJustWait84
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RW had one hell of a season, but it's pretty obvious that his attitude and approach to winning needs to change. The young cast of one dimensional role players around him also needs to get a lot better, either through front office moves, or if he can actually teach them to become better players who can create some synergy instead of it just being Russ. He's still gassed during 4Qs in playoff series and taking too many bad shots when it counts the most. That Beverly comment, for whatever it was worth, was pretty revealing if that's what Russ actually said.

On one hand, I feel bad for the guy, because he's tremendously talented and tries his best to do HIS best every night. The skeptic in me says he doesn't really care about teamwork or winning all that much since he's happy being a superstar lone wolf and he doesn't feel like he's got to change anything about his game.

Anyway, I'm glad that series is over and that there's still a lot of great basketball to watch. We're not even done with the first round and most of the series have been pretty competitive and exciting.

4/26/2017 6:47:18 PM

BanjoMan
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^with all of that being said, it is still hard to say that he isn't the MVP.

4/26/2017 6:59:43 PM

UJustWait84
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Based on his performance this season, it's hard to argue otherwise, although the case for Harden exists if you value winning more than stats.

Overall, their stats are actually pretty similar. One plays for a TEAM that has a chance to win, the other chased triple doubles every night and got them for the most part. [/end]

4/26/2017 7:04:43 PM

jbrick83
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Your argument is moot because his team was so much better when he was putting up triple doubles. Obviously when he was scoring points, dishing out assists (when his teammates could make shots), and grabbing rebounds so he could hit his big men who were leaking on the break...his team won. When he wasn't grabbing those rebounds and dropping dimes...his team lost. How does "chasing triple doubles" not equal winning when his team was much more likely to win if he dropped a triple double?

And the Rockets are just a much better team. Patrick Beverly would have been the best three point shooter on the Thunder. Nene was a bench player that destroyed every OKC big man. Lou Williams just put up 20pts/gm. You just can't say one guy is better than the other because of wins.

4/26/2017 11:08:55 PM

rwoody
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I was curious about his record compared to usage and shooting percentage and found this (the second half)
https://www.fanragsports.com/nba/thunder/russell-westbrook-triple-doubles-winning/

Think it's interesting that he is much less successful when "taking over" a game. Look to game 4 and 5 where he was the only reason they were in it but then his 4th quarter shot domination killed them.

4/26/2017 11:21:50 PM

UJustWait84
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^^ Christ, just let it fucking go already. You can come back and be outraged if he doesn't win the MVP for whatever reason, but neither one of us are going to change our minds on this any time soon.

4/26/2017 11:45:09 PM

face
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Westbrook blew goats in that series and got thoroughly outplayed by Harden.

And just so we are clear this myth that okc supporting cast is that much worse than Houston is silly. There's a really solid argument to be made that okc cast is better. Ariza, Anderson, and Nene are all castoff bench players from non playoff teams(!!) who harden revitalized their careers.

But when you have your "star" missing every shot all game and failing to get his teammates involved you can't expect to win. His ts% was a full TEN points lower than harden's. Westbrook stats in the 4th quarter were absolutely heinous. Just like they are every year as he shoots them out of the playoffs.

Bottom line: Harden put up a star stat line (.245 wp/48 And 61% ts) and Westbrook didn't. (.116, .51% by comparison).

Also they stuck harden with the shitty anderson/Capella unit early. Let gordon/Lou go off on the 2nd unit. In the 4th Houston would put their best lineup in and beat them.

Okc woulda been fine if Westbrook could score. Or if they had John wall or chris paul. But unfortunately they don't and they aren't going anywhere with Westbrook until he learns to play a winning style

[Edited on April 27, 2017 at 3:33 AM. Reason : A]

[Edited on April 27, 2017 at 3:41 AM. Reason : A]

4/27/2017 3:28:09 AM

Turnip
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Fuck Rondo's thumb.

4/27/2017 4:23:37 AM

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