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beatsunc
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THREE thousand dollars / quarter of money taken from your neighbors

8/1/2019 4:34:11 PM

dtownral
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um?

https://www.reddit.com/r/YangForPresidentHQ/comments/csgkr5/resistance_is_futile/

so yang supporters were trump supporters?

this is the kind of thing i assume all yang supporters believe:
Quote :
"InternetApprentice
14 points
·
1 hour ago
This is me currently in a sense. I feel like Yang is more in line with my purist capitalist beliefs more so than Trump since I don’t think Yang would be stupid enough to create trade war tariffs lol I have a MAGA hat but I’m on the fence for picking up a MATH one.

"

8/19/2019 1:56:29 PM

shoot
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^^^ Isn't it Kamala Harris?

8/19/2019 2:01:14 PM

qntmfred
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Quote :
" so yang supporters were trump supporters?"


SOME Yang supporters were Trump supporters. Consider it a rehabilitation of sorts if you like. It's a GOOD thing for Trump supporters to turn away from Trump. And yes, many if not most Trump voters are capable of if not eager to support a better candidate.

If we want to win in 2020, we can't take a chance squeaking it out like we tried with Hillary. We need to trounce Trump. We need a candidate who can 1) increase Dem turnout with the enthusiasm of the Democratic voters and 2) appeal to Independents and former Trump supporters.

Many Trump voters who don't like Trump WILL vote for a better candidate. But they won't vote for most of the Democratic candidates for the same reason they didn't vote for Hillary. They don't trust the establishment (Democrats OR Republicans) to work in their interest. Even if it was a scam, Trump was able to tap into that sentiment in '16. Yang and Bernie are the only ones who are capturing significant amounts of former Trump voters.

Bernie did so well in 16 in part due to a similar reason as Trump, he's NOT an establishment Democrat. The challenge with Bernie is that he scared a bunch of people in the last cycle because he did a shitty job of articulating what Democratic Socialism means and he pissed off a bunch of Democrats in the process. So now in 19/20, the right thinks he's a communist, and the Dems think he's hijacking their party. Sure, millions of Americans support Bernie, but he has a ceiling of support. If he does manage to get the nomination, will centrist Democrats and even some Republicans vote for him enough for him to beat Trump? I hope so. But there's a lot of downsides to Bernie.

Here's an anecdotal example of why Yang can beat Trump - a friend of mine is a conservative, evangelical Republican, small business owner. After he watched the first DemDebate he posted on facebook "I know a lot of Republicans want to vote for a democratic candidate, but the last Democratic debate scared them to death."

I responded with a post introducing him to Andrew Yang and his vision. He said thanks for the reply and that he would look into him. In the last week I've seen him repost two Yang videos, and making the case to his conservative friends in the comments. This is how we start to pull America away from Trumpism.


My friend is not the only one. This Trump account posted a Yang/Trump poll last week and 73k votes later Yang is up 56/44. I know it's just Twitter, but I believe it's a legitimate reflection of real momentum for Yang.

8/19/2019 5:48:23 PM

dtownral
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Way more democrats would vote for sanders than someone who spoke openly about wanting to dismantle social programs.

Also, that meme and reddit and twitter activity are courting the same trump bros that russians targeted to support sanders, it's a toxic group that will hurt him in the same way it hurt sanders (or at least it will if he becomes as relevant as sanders was, which seems very unlikely)

Any democratic candidate will be called a socialist communist, fucking hillary clinton was called that. You dont win by trying to court a tiny amount of repiblicans, this is so naive.

[Edited on August 19, 2019 at 10:23 PM. Reason : .]

8/19/2019 10:22:16 PM

Dentaldamn
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Yang supporters believe Trump supporters are lost in the desert and need to be led to water.

Or maybe they’re in the cave.

8/19/2019 10:57:49 PM

qntmfred
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how would you characterize how the other candidate's supporters think of Trump supporters? I don't think this matters much as far as the Dem nomination goes.

Yang supporters merely acknowledge the fact (intended or not, unexpected or not) that he is attracting supporters from all over the political spectrum, whether typical Democrats and progressives to disaffected Trump voters, conservatives and libertarians. Aren't we all tired on the divisiveness and constant arguing in this country? It's refreshing to see a candidate who focuses on solutions for the American people, and whose supporters are generally optimistic and friendly in the political discourse.

[Edited on August 20, 2019 at 1:07 PM. Reason : #YangGangLove]

8/20/2019 1:07:20 PM

dtownral
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it matters that him and his supporters seem to want trump supporters

Quote :
"Aren't we all tired on the divisiveness and constant arguing in this country?"


this is privileged "both-sides!" nonsense, it's also the same kind of thinking that loses elections. a democratic candidate needs to be ready to fight more than any other in recent history, trying to be nice or appeal to both sides (reeeeeee!) will get you steamrolled

[Edited on August 20, 2019 at 1:27 PM. Reason : .]

8/20/2019 1:25:37 PM

dtownral
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has yang sent well-wishes to ngo again?

8/20/2019 1:28:36 PM

daaave
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It's easy to be non-divisive and non-argumentative when your politics aren't back by any solid moral structure. Any progressive backing Yang is being duped.

[Edited on August 20, 2019 at 1:30 PM. Reason : ^^]

8/20/2019 1:30:29 PM

qntmfred
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Quote :
" yang sent well-wishes"


Quote :
" back by any solid moral structure"


i know both of y'all have years of practice being divisive, so I'm ok if y'all don't get it. as you were



[Edited on August 20, 2019 at 2:32 PM. Reason : #YangGangLove]

8/20/2019 2:27:59 PM

rwoody
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How does the first link answer the ngo (much less rubin and Shapiro) question?


[Edited on August 20, 2019 at 2:40 PM. Reason : "good people on both sides"??? ]

8/20/2019 2:39:36 PM

dtownral
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Oh no, a fan of a morally decrepit tech boi said I'm divisive because I'm not a fan of a right wing libertarian tech bro who wants to destroy the few social programs we have, what ever shall I do

8/20/2019 6:25:59 PM

qntmfred
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I don't care if you like Yang or not, I really don't. But I have been watching you shitpost for 10+ years so yeah I feel pretty confident saying that you are emblematic of the type of problem in our society that Yang is referring to

[Edited on August 20, 2019 at 6:51 PM. Reason : that said I look forward to you and your family benefiting from $1000/month #YangGangLove]

8/20/2019 6:50:44 PM

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8/20/2019 6:52:27 PM

TreeTwista10
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Quote :
"But I have been watching you shitpost for 10+ years so yeah I feel pretty confident saying that you are emblematic of the type of problem in our society that Yang is referring to"


8/20/2019 6:54:59 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"that said I look forward to you and your family benefiting from $1000/mont"


Which will be more than offset by increases in rent and consumer prices (because of the VAT) and decreases in social services.

Seriously think about how this would affect most working people.

8/20/2019 7:07:16 PM

qntmfred
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housing costs are still driven by the market. they're not gonna go up b/c of UBI

consumer prices might go up a few percent b/c of the VAT. unless you're spending $120,000/year on non-essential goods, a $1k/month is going to give you more buying power

decreases in social services are OPT-IN. if your current social services are better than $1k/month, then you keep what you get instead.

think about how many people who should be receiving social services don't get it. tens of millions of people get denied those benefits because of the inhumane bureaucracy we've built around it. those same social services stigmatize those who receive it. those social services disincentive employment. UBI does none of those things. but it DOES put $1000/month into the hands of 200,000,000 Americans who could surely put it to good use

8/20/2019 7:12:50 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"housing costs are still driven by the market. they're not gonna go up b/c of UBI"


A market that has extra money in it for service providers (such as landlords) to fight over.

Quote :
"consumer prices might go up a few percent b/c of the VAT. unless you're spending $120,000/year on non-essential goods, a $1k/month is going to give you more buying power"


Regardless of whether or not essential goods are included (I can't find anywhere saying this), a VAT tax is ultimately regressive and it would absolutely cut into the dividend.

Quote :
"decreases in social services are OPT-IN. if your current social services are better than $1k/month, then you keep what you get instead.

think about how many people who should be receiving social services don't get it. tens of millions of people get denied those benefits because of the inhumane bureaucracy we've built around it. those same social services stigmatize those who receive it. those social services disincentive employment. UBI does none of those things. but it DOES put $1000/month into the hands of 200,000,000 Americans who could surely put it to good use"


The people who opt out are taking a huge risk by putting all their eggs into one, market susceptible, basket. The people who don't opt out will still be dealing with the effects of the VAT, rent increases, and various other service cost increases. Not a great situation to be in.

Also:

Quote :
"Andrew Yang’s philosophical approach to UBI mirrors Milton Friedman’s thinking: individuals are better suited to fund their personal needs than the government. This version of UBI abandons a society-wide effort to address large-scale social issues, relying instead on individual, personal choices that play out in a free market. His program reduces the power of the state to intervene in the market and thus its ability to curb the deleterious effects of capitalism."


https://jacobinmag.com/2019/06/andrew-yang-universal-basic-income-presidential-election

[Edited on August 20, 2019 at 8:13 PM. Reason : .]

8/20/2019 8:11:01 PM

qntmfred
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Quote :
" extra money in it for service providers (such as landlords) to fight over"


yes, that is the free market. service providers fight for the business of consumers. you might as well say that McDonald's is gonna start charging $1001 for a cheeseburger bc they know consumers have the extra money.

Quote :
" Regardless of whether or not essential goods are included (I can't find anywhere saying this), a VAT tax is ultimately regressive and it would absolutely cut into the dividend."


https://www.yang2020.com/policies/value-added-tax/

Quote :
" This VAT would vary based on the good to which it’s applied, with staples having a lower rate or being excluded, and luxury goods having a higher rate."


Yes, a VAT is regressive. A UBI+VAT however, which is Yang's proposal, is not regressive for 94% of Americans. I wasn't a fan of the VAT a few months ago, I was more interested in a wealth tax. But then I realized that the folks who have the wealth, have too much influence and are smart enough (or their accountants are anyways) to avoid taxable events. a VAT is the simplest, most efficient way to evenly collect tax dollars from all participants in the economy. That's why so many other countries do it.

Quote :
" The people who opt out are taking a huge risk by putting all their eggs into one, market susceptible, basket."


i'm not sure what you mean here. what risk?

Quote :
"The people who don't opt out will still be dealing with the effects of the VAT, rent increases, and various other service cost increases. Not a great situation to be in."


Yang has stated that existing services for those who do not opti-in will be scaled up to counteract the effects of the VAT

Quote :
" individuals are better suited to fund their personal needs than the government"


yeah I think most Americans would agree that they have a much better grip on how to spend their money to improve their own lives than a huge bureaucracy telling them what to do.

8/20/2019 8:51:56 PM

utowncha
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DTR wastes an awful lot of text just to say "im a bernie bro and hate you if you arent." he needs to go mellow out with his 300 dollar fish pan and shooting range groupon.

8/21/2019 7:16:27 AM

dtownral
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establishment candidates are better than yang

8/21/2019 9:02:34 AM

dtownral
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Quote :
"yes, that is the free market. service providers fight for the business of consumers. you might as well say that McDonald's is gonna start charging $1001 for a cheeseburger bc they know consumers have the extra money."


so no concern because of "free market"? this is supposed to be a progressive idea?

Quote :
"A UBI+VAT however, which is Yang's proposal, is not regressive for 94% of Americans."

how is it still not regressive if someone who has to opt-out of services sees a smaller net benefit than someone who doesn't?

Quote :
"i'm not sure what you mean here. what risk?"

not everyone will manage their money well? i know libertarians don't like paternalism, but certainly they can acknowledge this risk, right?

Quote :
"Yang has stated that existing services for those who do not opti-in will be scaled up to counteract the effects of the VAT"

can you provide some more details on this, because he's also said that this is the first step to removing those services. one of the cornerstones of paying for his UBI is the cuts to welfare spending, are you saying they will cut spending but also increase services? does this not conflict with his statements that this is the first step to removing those services? i know that he wants to increase medicare support, but that's not what we are talking about (or is it, are you saying increased spending for medicare offsets those lost services?). and if efficiency is a goal, doesn't all of this erase that and make it another bureaucracy of it's own?

8/21/2019 9:33:02 AM

Geppetto
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I like Yang, and I think he speaks a lot of truth. I don't typically agree with dtownral but he does make some valid points here. I'd also like to disclose that in general I'm a fan of UBI.

1) On the subject of rents, which is intentionally distinct from home prices, whether he intended that distinction or not: Classic microeconomics does show that individuals have a certain willingness to pay, which essentially reflects one's pain of departing with their money. Stipends, coupons, etc for users do not reduce prices to the consumer. Consumer A is willing to pay $30 for a shirt. JCP marks a $60 shirt 50% off and sells it for $30. Consumer A buys a shirt for $30 still, because that is their WTP, rather than buying a $30 shirt at a lower price of $15. Same applies to BB&B coupons. This has a distinct impact on rents, as can be seen in areas of NYC. Foreign students at both Columbia and NYU tend to get a particular cash assistance to help for renting a place to live. When these payments went into place rents in the area rose by approximately the same price as the allowance.

Now I don't believe that all of a sudden rent will go up by $1000/month. The stipend above was relatively small and could easily be consumed by an increase of a few percentage points. But when consumers view the UI payment as 'free money', they will be more willing to hand that over and pay the same out of pocket for rent. Landlords will identify this and prices will rise. While I agree that rent won't absorb all of these, I am not sure how many services will rise to absorb the lift the UI is meant to provide. This should be acknowledged by opponents and proponents alike. You also have more people competing for the same goods and services, which will increase prices as people at the margins of consumption levels move up from one to the other and the top echelon for that tier remain. Mo' competition mo' prices.


2. Not everyone spends money efficiently or to serve their best long term interests. Unfortunately, this tends to be the group of people- the undereducated, low socio-economic background, etc- that needs this help the most. Even in my wildest dreams I don't believe that distributing 1K/month would remove homelessness or poverty. An honest conversation about UBI should acknowledge this aspect of human nature or else it is doomed to scarecrow arguments or large disappointment if ever implemented.

8/21/2019 11:33:42 AM

daaave
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^
Very well put.

One confusing aspect of Yang's platform is that he acknowledges that healthcare shouldn't be a market commodity, but he apparently believes every other social program should be? Why? Why take what the government is already providing and put it in the hands of the market, which doesn't have our best interests at heart?

Life's necessities should be guaranteed to everyone. Healthcare, food, housing, work. Separate from those things, UBI can exist for supplemental needs such as household supplies, clothes, traveling to visit family, personal enrichment, etc.

[Edited on August 21, 2019 at 11:49 AM. Reason : .]

8/21/2019 11:48:54 AM

PaulISdead
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If you raise taxes on the income I'm going to be making when I strike it rich, I won't have incentive to exploit the excess value of labor.



[Edited on August 21, 2019 at 2:02 PM. Reason : If we could just harness greed to create a better balance]

8/21/2019 1:39:55 PM

synapse
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POLITICO: The Surprising Surge of Andrew Yang.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/08/22/andrew-yang-2020-president-profile-227631

8/22/2019 10:32:15 AM

shoot
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Dude is getting better each day, although I don't believe he will be the next POTUS, or the nominee.

8/22/2019 11:40:26 AM

qntmfred
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gonna repost a soap box post of mine

Quote :
"Alan Lichtman, an American University professor who has correctly predicted the outcome of the past nine presidential elections and author of The Case For Impeachment," told HILL.TV this week that based on his predictive system Donald Trump might be on course to win in 2020 unless the economy falters or he is impeached.

He also had some suggestions for Democrats about who to nominate to defeat Trump, saying "the conventional wisdom is all wrong."

"The conventional wisdom you hear from Nancy Pelosi and others is we need to go down the center line and nominate an establishment, experienced, proven candidate, and they’ve done that many times," he said, listing: "Mike Dukakis in 1988, Al Gore in 2000, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton."

"And what do they all have in common? They all lost," he said. "It’s the off-the-wall candidates -- the Carters, the [Bill] Clintons, the Obamas -- who no one expected who have won."
"


https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/06/07/historian_allan_lichtman_democrats_might_do_better_with_an_off_the_wall_2020_candidate_rather_than_safe_pick.html


establishment picks will 100% lose to Trump. and Trump knows it too

8/22/2019 11:47:09 AM

dtownral
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what does that have to do with Yang?

[Edited on August 22, 2019 at 11:55 AM. Reason : and why is dukakis establishment but clinton a wild card? why is gore establishment but not clinton?]

8/22/2019 11:51:27 AM

shoot
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Quote :
"Alan Lichtman, an American University professor who has correctly predicted the outcome of the past nine presidential elections"


How did he prove he won the nine predictions? He published papers? He should spend his time in Vegas and be a professional predictor. He could earn big money, probably much more than a school faculty.

8/22/2019 12:10:14 PM

qntmfred
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^ his record and method is well publicized.

8/22/2019 12:19:50 PM

rwoody
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Warren is closer to Obama then Yang, in term of resume and background

But anyway fyi This American Life did an Iowa ep a few back and had a Yang segment. You might be interested qtm

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/678/the-wannabes

[Edited on August 22, 2019 at 12:31 PM. Reason : E]

8/22/2019 12:30:20 PM

shoot
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I will read his papers

8/22/2019 12:30:52 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"It’s the off-the-wall candidates -- the Carters, the [Bill] Clintons, the Obamas"


None of these are off-the-wall candidates. The only one even close is Obama and he rose up in the corrupt Chicago political machine.

Warren is also not an off the-wall-candidate. She may have been once upon a time, but she's an insider now.

8/22/2019 12:36:19 PM

dtownral
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(maybe it should be noted that lichtman said trump would win the popular vote, i don't think he makes any predictions about electoral maps)

8/22/2019 12:37:54 PM

qntmfred
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Quote :
" Warren is closer to Obama then Yang, in term of resume and background"


agreed. Warren is doing great lately, lots of momentum. She's my second choice at this point, though with some reluctance

8/22/2019 12:42:07 PM

shoot
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He's treated as God by Yang gang.

9/11/2019 10:11:46 AM

BettrOffDead
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Quote :
"No.

First, not all goods will be subject to the VAT. Staples such as groceries and clothing will be excluded from the VAT.

Second, the assumption that the entire VAT would get passed on to consumers is incorrect. Consumers are price sensitive, and the demand for most goods is at least somewhat elastic. While prices will likely increase on many goods, the increase will, for the most part, be smaller than the VAT as producers find more efficient ways to produce goods and adjust prices to maximize profitability.

Finally, an individual would have to buy a lot of non-exempt items in order to “cancel out” the value of the UBI. Assuming all goods are subject to a VAT and the entire VAT is passed on to consumers, an individual would have to buy $120,000 worth of items before the extra costs associated with a VAT “use up” their UBI. As stated above, those two assumptions are wrong, and most people aren’t spending nearly that much money."


some Yang questions: (in these questions, you = Yang)
1) So if groceries and clothes are excluded from VAT, are those industries subsidized by the govt?
2) Do you think producers will bother finding a way to maximize profitability that ISNT passing it all along to the consumer? Do you think companies knowing people have an extra grand will make them try to keep prices low?
3)Just saying assumptions are wrong doesnt mean anything. and calling it a freedom dividend is a good way to look like an asshole. this one wasnt a question.

9/11/2019 11:30:29 AM

qntmfred
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^ i'll get back to you on those

hope everybody is watching the debate tonight. it's gonna be

9/12/2019 11:01:24 AM

rwoody
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Making friends with Ted Cruz this morning

9/12/2019 11:05:54 AM

Dentaldamn
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After rereading the main points of the Yang policies, if you usually vote republican and would vote for Yang you’re not a conservative and you likely have brain damage.


Not sure where these people are coming from.

9/12/2019 11:33:14 AM

beatsunc
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^^ted Cruz used to play basketball at Duke so yang has no chance

[Edited on September 12, 2019 at 11:36 AM. Reason : F]

9/12/2019 11:34:38 AM

synapse
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Quote :
"hope everybody is watching the debate tonight. it's gonna be "


because of: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/what-andrew-yang-s-big-democratic-debate-surprise-n1052581 ?

9/12/2019 11:40:10 AM

shoot
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^^^ His No.1 policy is giving every citizen $1k per month, lol.

9/12/2019 11:43:00 AM

daaave
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giving everyone in the audience $1000?

9/12/2019 11:50:01 AM

qntmfred
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^^^ I was very clear on how many there will be

9/12/2019 12:42:11 PM

BJCaudill21
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well there's a panthers game tonight so... no..

I'll read the transcript tomorrow though

9/12/2019 2:59:39 PM

justinh524
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debate out with your wang out

9/12/2019 2:59:58 PM

synapse
play so hard
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^^^ i got tired of clicking tbh

9/12/2019 3:37:03 PM

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