school massacres have always been an interest when i studied criminology, as well during the law enforcement training i have in rapid deployment active shooter situations. i have done a pretty decent amount of research into this topic, so i whipped up this little report based on what i have studied. take what you want from it. this is just a rough draft type thing and not a full blown paper into my studies on this,

why will school shooting massacres keep happening, no matter what we do? Simple. The culture script for this sort of revenge has now been forever ingrained into the minds of the public. disturbed teens or college kids who feel wronged, alienated etc now will always have this culture script of a revenge massacre. even if the columbine basement tapes or the NBC tapes today remain pretty much confidential to prevent copy cat crimes, the idea of this sort of revenge scheme is already ingrained and we cant change that.

why is the school often the target of this sort of revenge (much like the workplace in an adult revenge massacre)? It is simply because the school and the people there take on the very face of the disturbed persons hatred. they often feel alienated, teased, emasculated or rejected. therefore the school takes on the very face of all that has done them wrong.

the act of a violent revenge as a culture script has now been so ingrained in society that future people who feel the same way as dylan klebold, eric harris or the VT kid will always have this as an idea. these people become anti-heroes to the disturbed. no matter if the motives and tapes they make are kept secret, the media coverage and fame still exists. these killers often feel slighted by the school and their peers in some way, and also often times sexually inadequate. the social alienation and wrongs they feel doesnt have to be real, it can also be perceived in their own minds. for example, by many accounts many school shooters were popular and well liked in their own social circles (eric harris, dylan klebold and mitchell johnson come to mind). However their enemies often tend to be anyone that does fit into the system they hate, athletes, popular people, rich people or anyone else they feel has wronged them in some way...however since the school itself is the overall target that usually means anyone is really a target. therefore, in order to get back at the system and people they hate, a violent ultra-masculine guns blazing revenge is a way to re-establish their man hood and also gain power over people and a system they often felt no power in. there is also a grandiose vision in their minds of going out in a blaze of glory and being remembered as a somebody when they often felt like a nobody. this is of course why they often leave a diary and notes after the fact. they see themselves as a martyr, and no matter how much their diaries and tapes are hidden from the public, the very act itself will not die. i view this new culture script of a school massacre less as a copy cat epidemic and more of a model and inspiration for future killers. its a model for them to put their own spin on it.

now everyone always says, why didnt we see the warning signs, why didnt we act. the plain truth is sometimes there are warnings signs and sometimes there is not, but almost always these massacres are pre-planned. but warning signs are a real problem in that they are not able to really tell who will do this. there is no profile for this type of person. there are correlations and similarities between all of them but there is no profile. if one were to form a profile there would be hundreds of false positives for every one possible potential. i think a key correlation that can be noticed though is mental illness. most school shooters have been diagnosed with a mental illness. i believe this is the key factor between an alienated kid who may fantasize and a truly potential attacker. having a mental illness is what could push someone over the edge if they lack the impulse control to stop at just a fantasy. Im sure many alienated kids have often fantasized about this sort of revenge but still have the sense of mind to not carry it out, those without that impulse control may be more prone. yet despite this, profiling school kids who seem to fit the match will yield way more false positives than foiled plots.

so, what are the basic similarities between massacre school killers? social alienation/marginalization (whether real or perceived), mental illness (sociopath, delusions, psychotic), the acknowledgment that a rampage is a way to right the wrongs (culture script). and, since that culture script will always exist now, these things cant really be stopped. in my opinion developing a profile is a bad idea...but...looking into serious warning signs is a good idea and can foil plots. in fact often times the plotters will tell others prior to the attack. so there is a way to try and stop these things, and since columbine plots have been foiled, but profiling and jumping to conclusions is not the way to go. also, mindless blaming of video games, movies and music is just a way of trying to hide a deeper truth

4/18/2007 10:01:15 PM

I didn't read it but let me summarize.

There will always be crazy people and guns.

/thread.

4/18/2007 10:18:28 PM

didnt mention guns once, and that rather just say there are crazy people deal with it i explain why these things happen

[Edited on April 18, 2007 at 10:21 PM. Reason : ,]

4/18/2007 10:20:39 PM

because shit like this has always happened. Maybe not on the scale of 33 at one time, but school shootings have happened many times over in the past. This is not a new phenomenon

4/18/2007 10:20:58 PM

I think the media coverage on the shooting has effectively martyred him, and now we are going to see a rash of copycat attacks over the following years by people who want to get attention.

4/18/2007 10:21:05 PM

there is a difference between a school shooting and a school massacre. i am focusing on massacres. by saying school massacre i am referring to multiple victims and a revenge mentality. a school shooting may be joe crip shoots bob blood in the bathroom (not a school massacre and a different set of circumstances).

Quote :

"see a rash of copycat attacks over the following years by people who want to get attention."

yes the people that do this by nature want the attention no doubt, but you need to look at this as less of a copy cat mentality and more of an inspiration. hell often times they want to out do the previous one, many foiled plots after columbine had the people claiming they wanted to make it worse then columbine, yet they often pay homage to the previous martyrs. this is now a culture script and not a copy cat thing, that my whole point in a nutshell. and by culture script i mean a valid way (in their minds) to achieve a goal.




[Edited on April 18, 2007 at 10:30 PM. Reason : .]

4/18/2007 10:23:44 PM

It's been 8 years since the last big school massacre.

It will always happen, but it doesn't happen enough to consider it a major problem in American society.

4/18/2007 11:02:46 PM

republican18: "guns blazing revenge is a way" 10:01

fermata: "There will always be crazy people and guns." 10:18

republican18: "didnt mention guns once" 10:20
----

they often feel ...emasculated
these killers often feel ...often times sexually inadequate
ultra-masculine guns
re-establish their man hood

4/18/2007 11:08:54 PM

I read it all.

Where do you think this "culture script" that you mentioned came from? Why does American society at large have this notion that a bloody, going-out-in-a-blaze-of-glory revenge is acceptable?

Also, it would seem to me that mental illness (which you do list as a factor) is more to blame than the culture script. Like you said, these sorts of people have something psychologically wrong with them that makes them believe that living out their violent fantasies is acceptable. I wasn't exactly the most popular person in high school, and while I wouldn't say that people hated me I would say that I was largely an outcast. There were at least a few times during those years where I had fantasies about violently taking out the people that happened to piss me off. But I chalk that up to adolescence and hormones fucking up my brain, and even then I knew that senseless violence would not solve my problems. After all, they were just fantasies, just ways to blow off steam. Not once was I unable to discern fantasy from reality.

And I imagine that I'm not the only one who did this. Everybody occasionally feels the need to rip somebody's head off. Not because you think anything positive will come of it, but because you feel that you have achieved power over the object of your hate. Which is one of the things that I agree with in your post; these kids feel as though they gain power or control over their fixations. The only difference is that rational people such as you and me understand that turning our fantasies into reality would result in some terrible destruction, whereas these people who commit massacres either don't understand or no longer care.

[Edited on April 18, 2007 at 11:11 PM. Reason : blah]

4/18/2007 11:10:29 PM

and you can use letters to make ... words

4/18/2007 11:21:02 PM

But why is it ahppening now? I mean I know the guy in the 60s did it to but before then I haven't heard of any...so why now? Why is this the way to deal with things now? I don't understand why this is the manner in which these kids deal with bullying, etc... nowdays.

4/18/2007 11:23:11 PM

the reason people like us try to understand what the killer was thinking is because we have rational minds...the killer however, did not

4/18/2007 11:24:46 PM

first off, when i said i didnt mention guns i meant that i didnt mention them as a factor. a tool yes a factor no.

Quote :

"here do you think this "culture script" that you mentioned came from?"

most likely from the hyper masculine idea portrayed in society, hostory and media that going out in a blaze of glory, fighting and revenge is manly. and this has nothing to do with guns because as we can see in the latest film 300, where they didn't even use guns, yet the notion of fighting and blaze of glory is hyped up as ultra masculine. this is where the notion came from, so for a young man who may feel alienated, especially from his peers and females, this is a way to take back his manliness and prove them wrong. the kentucky shooter michael carneal is a perfect example of this. now that the culture script of this has been developed, it is self perpetuating regardless of the media, movies, etc.

Quote :

"lso, it would seem to me that mental illness (which you do list as a factor) is more to blame than the culture script"

as we have seen in damn near all the massacre killers they have either been diagnosed prior or after the fact with some sort of mental illness. i see this illness as not being the cause but rather a magnifier of the other symptoms...ie depression, alienation, social marginalization (percieved or real) and the feeling of being slighted in some way. the illness is most likely what can push them over the edge from fantasy to reality. perhaps they lack the impulse control, knowledge or concern for right and wrong, concern for other people and human life and just plain sociopathism. this is most likely what turns the fantasy to reality. most people have fantasy of revenge and violence against the people who wrong you, few actually carry it out....thus the whole false negative problem of profiling.

Quote :

"But why is it ahppening now?"

school shootings are not new, they have happened in schools all over the country for a long long time. school massacre killings are not even that new, there have been many since the 70s and maybe more depending on what you label as a massacre shooting and a school shooting (there is a difference at least in my argument purpose) but now the CULTURE SCRIPT has become so developed that it is a viable option for these kinds of people so these will continue to happen. they really arent an epedemic or really something that happens a lot (although one is too many) but they are sensationalized and the killers know this and like this (see my original post) therefore this is now a viable culture script in our society to achieve their sick goals. also, this formula tends to hold true across the world...the rampage school shooting in Germany april 2002 comes to mind. as well as others in canada and europe


oh yeah i forgot to mention in my original post, but its obvious, that the huge majority of these types of incidents involve male shooters






[Edited on April 18, 2007 at 11:42 PM. Reason : .]

4/18/2007 11:25:06 PM

Quote :

"first off, when i said i didnt mention guns i meant that i didnt mention them as a factor. a tool yes a factor no."

a tool is a factor



[Edited on April 18, 2007 at 11:57 PM. Reason : /]

4/18/2007 11:56:28 PM

guns arent a cause, they are a tool. the original columbine plot involved more people dying from bombs than guns. they had to change it on the day of when the bombs didnt work.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 12:00 AM. Reason : .]

4/18/2007 11:58:12 PM

Quote :

"fac·tor /'fækt?r/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fak-ter] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. one of the elements contributing to a particular result or situation:"

4/18/2007 11:59:16 PM

we can agrue over semantics if youd like but i would rather look at the real problems. and if you want to blame guns and want more gun laws just think how many of these shootings occurred with stolen or otherwise illegally obtained guns. more gun laws wont stop this, so i chose to look at the root of the problem instead of your knee jerk liberal reaction

4/19/2007 12:02:11 AM

knee jerk liberal reaction?

what the fuck are you babbling about?

i said a gun is a factor in school massacres, jackass. please, by all means, point me to my "knee jerk liberal reaction" or any mention of wanting to modify gun laws. thanks in advance

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 12:04 AM. Reason : .,]

4/19/2007 12:03:47 AM

it seems your trying to argue over my wording in something i wrote rather quickly. i am examining the root casue of why they would do this and not so much as to how they do this.

4/19/2007 12:05:42 AM

Quote :

"and if you want to blame guns "

Man you guys can get defensive. He didn't really blame guns, but cited them as an unavoidable part of american life. He said they'd always be there, and so people will always be able to do harm with them. Since you were talking about school massacres and referring specifically to school shootings, the ever-present nature of guns in American society is part of the reason this kind of thing will always be able to happen. He's not saying banning guns would in any way be an intelligent response. He also didn't say that banning guns would prevent this from happening or actually remove guns from american society.

4/19/2007 12:07:56 AM

point noted

4/19/2007 12:17:24 AM

guns dont kill people.

gun toting gun nuts kill people.

4/19/2007 12:33:14 AM

yup

4/19/2007 12:53:05 AM

I do not have a gun in my home, in my car, or on my person. But I sure don't mind when my gun-nut friends are around. Hell, your average gun-nut is more mentally sound than many college students, at least they have a hobby.

4/19/2007 2:20:14 AM

The thing I hate most about the media coverage is that they keep on saying that they want to find out why, but all they do reports on is how fucked up people are saying he was. You want to find out why? Go find out about all the other rich college kids who made fun of him and pushed him to the edge. Find out about the girlfriend who fucked some other dude (or whatever the hell happened), because that is WHY this happened.

4/19/2007 3:26:19 AM

Why will this always keep happening? I'm not sure why, but I'm sure why it always seems to end so badly. Unfortunately, we are a nation, not of men, but of scared, helpless children. We cower and flee in the face of violence rather than standing against those who visit it upon us

32 people in Virgina are dead. If 32 people had rushed Cho when he started shooting, the only one who would be dead for sure would be the murderous psychopath himself. On 9/11/01 hundreds submitted meekly to a handful of men with box-cutters. Thousands died. Only a few resisted. Their courage undoubtedly saved lives.

To quote from Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense

Quote :

"Violent crime is feasible only if its victims are cowards. Any man who is a man may not, in honor, submit to threats or violence. But many men who are not cowards are simply unprepared for the fact of human savagery. They have not thought about it (incredible as this may appear to anyone who reads the paper or listens to the news) and they just don't know what to do. When they look right into the face of depravity or violence, they are astonished or confounded. This can be corrected. Now how can we cultivate an aggressive response? I think the answer is indignation. Read the papers, watch the news. These people have no right to prey upon innocent citizens. They have no right to offer you violence. They are bad people and you are justified in resenting their behavior to the point of rage. Your response, if attacked must not be fear, it must be anger. The two emotions are quite close and you can quite easily turn one into the other. At this point your life hangs on your ability to block out all thoughts of your own peril, and to concentrate utterly on the destruction of your enemy. The foregoing is quite obviously not an approved outlook in sociological circles. That is of no consequence. We are concerned here simply with survival. After we have arranged for our survivial, we can discuss sociology. Anyone who willfully and maliciously attacks another without sufficient cause deserves no consideration. The attacker must be stopped. At once and completely. So make sure, and do not be restrained by considerations of forbearance. They can get you killed. Apart from the odds that you will be killed anyway if you submit to threats of violence, it would seem - especially in today's world of permissive atrocity - that it may be your social duty to resist. The law seems completely disinclined to discourage violent crime. The sociopath who attacks you has little to fear, at this writing, from either the police or the courts. If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim."

4/19/2007 4:36:01 AM

Quote :

"God: You want to find out why? Go find out about all the other rich college kids who made fun of him and pushed him to the edge. Find out about the girlfriend who fucked some other dude (or whatever the hell happened), because that is WHY this happened."

WTF?

so, when rich college kids pick on you and your girlfriend fucks some other guy, you're gonna go shoot 70 or 80 kids who had nothing to do with it?

fuck you.




[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 4:56 AM. Reason : ]

4/19/2007 4:56:06 AM

^^ The worst kind of victim-blaming.

4/19/2007 5:14:40 AM

Quote :

"I think the media coverage on the shooting has effectively martyred him, and now we are going to see a rash of copycat attacks over the following years by people who want to get attention."

Pretty much. I didn't really like how the news focused on the fact that this was the worst school shooting ever "with x number of people now confirmed dead". They mentioned it every few minutes - almost like they were excited to report it. I couldn't help but think that they were just egging the next guy on to top this clown's "record".

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 7:53 AM. Reason : -]

4/19/2007 7:48:59 AM

Quote :

"Profiling" school shooters School shooting is a topic of intense interest in the United States.[2] A thorough study of all U.S. school shootings by the U.S. Secret Service[3] warned against the belief that a certain "type" of student would be a perpetrator. Any "profile" would fit too many students to be useful and may not fit the potential perpetrators. Some lived with both parents in 'an ideal, All-American family.' Some were children of divorce, or lived in foster homes. A few were loners, but most had close friends. While it may be simplistic to assume a straightforward "profile", the study did find certain similarities among the perpetrators. "The researchers found that killers do not 'snap'. They plan. They acquire weapons. They tell others what they are planning. These children take a long, considered, public path toward violence."[4] Princeton's Katherine Newman points out that, far from being "loners", the perpetrators are "joiners" whose attempts at social integration fail, that they let their thinking and even their plans be known, sometimes frequently over long periods of times. The shootings seem as though an attempt to adjust their social standing and image, from "loser" to "master of violence." Many of the shooters told Secret Service investigators that feelings of alienation or persecution drove them to violence. According to the United States Secret Service, instead of looking for traits, the Secret Service urges adults to ask about behavior: "What has this child said? Do they have grievances? What do their friends know? Do they have access to weapons? Are they depressed or despondent?" "

You may want to cite that secret service study that says profiles would be too broad since you’re making that point too, and check out what Newman says on failing to fit in since she’s got that going too. Still the focus on the words “culture script” and the lack of feeling masculine enough are some original ideas that you can’t already find in a wikipedia article.

"they see themselves as a martyr"

Yeah, this kid compared himself to jesus several times in his video.

"scared, helpless children"

When I see things like this, I'm not so sure.

Quote :

"Liviu Librescu (August 18, 1930 – April 16, 2007) was a Romanian-born Israeli scientist and educator whose major research fields were Aeroelasticity and Aerodynamics. His most recent position was Professor of Engineering Science and Mechanics at Virginia Tech.[3] The 76 year-old Holocaust survivor was shot and killed in the Virginia Tech massacre while holding off the gunman at his lecture hall entrance so his students could escape."

Quote :

"Professor Liviu Librescu held the door of his classroom shut while Cho was attempting to enter it; although he was shot through the door, he was able to prevent the gunman from entering the classroom until his students had escaped through the windows.[16][17] Kevin Granata went down to second floor from his third floor office of Norris Hall, where the second round of shootings in the massacre took place. It was reported by witnesses to investigators that Dr. Granata, inside either an office or a classroom with other people, heard a commotion and went into the hallway to see if he could help. Partahi Lumbantoruan attempted to block the door from Cho's attack and gave way to the fellow students to save themselves, but was killed as a result.[18] Zach Petkewicz and two other classmates (fourth-year students) in another classroom - shoved a long table against the door and held it there - helping save 11 students from the massacre."

I think its an okay reaction for college kids to be scared of gunfire. I don’t think less of em one bit. I do think highly of people like that professor and what he did. But whats the point of being brave, if there is no one to be brave for?

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 8:21 AM. Reason : .]

4/19/2007 7:53:31 AM

Quote :

"If 32 people had rushed Cho when he started shooting, the only one who would be dead for sure would be the murderous psychopath himself."

You do realize that 32 people were not shot in the same location and the shootings spanned several rooms and even multiple buildings right? Your statement is asinine. Hell, a suicidal gunman being charged simultaneously by 32 people is still capable of killing some of them. I worry about the world in which people are expect to react with a hive mentality and hurl themselves at gunmen for the greater good. The fact that most people panic and run is a side effect of individualism and you really can't divorce us from that kind of behavior without some really nasty social engineering or compulsory militarization.

4/19/2007 8:00:52 AM

Quote :

"Hell, a suicidal gunman being charged simultaneously by 32 people is still capable of killing some of them."

That's the point. Some will still get killed but certainly not all 32. The rest of your post made sense though.

4/19/2007 8:30:06 AM

With all the adrenaline I don't think you'd be thinking clearly or doing the math on how many would survive in different scenarios, and the fact that most of these people would have never experienced anything like this before, and that gunfire is something to legitimately be afraid of… I don’t think it says anything less about people not immediately giving their lives by charging a gunman. And it seems like its alot easier to say I'm brave enough to give my life in that situation when you aren't in that situation.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 8:35 AM. Reason : .]

4/19/2007 8:32:53 AM

Quote :

"You do realize that 32 people were not shot in the same location and the shootings spanned several rooms and even multiple buildings right? Your statement is asinine."

He was not referring to the 32 victims per se. He was saying that if 32 people had rushed to take out the shooter when the shooting started, you may have others dead still, but chances are very high it would be less than 32.

Quote :

"Hell, a suicidal gunman being charged simultaneously by 32 people is still capable of killing some of them."

People are dying anyway, if people fought back, yes some would die, but resistance is always what ends these shooting sprees. The sooner resistance is met, the less people die. Look at the example above, one professor died, but no one in his classroom did, merely because he provided physical resistance to the shooter. Instead imagine that he didn't resist, how many more kids would be dead, on top of the professor?

Quote :

" I worry about the world in which people are expect to react with a hive mentality and hurl themselves at gunmen for the greater good. The fact that most people panic and run is a side effect of individualism and you really can't divorce us from that kind of behavior without some really nasty social engineering or compulsory militarization."

Or how about simply not teaching people to be submissive and consenting to criminals? All the time you hear on the news of some random citizen who fought back against their attacker and won, and always the first words out of whatever official the media quotes is "We don't suggest that people fight back". Why? What kind of world do we live in where your personal safety and life is not worth fighting for? Will people die? Yes. People will always die, this fact is inevitable. The real question is, "How many will live?" For people like Professor Librescu the answer is somewhere around 15 or 20 (at least that was the last number I heard for students in his class).

Quote :

"With all the adrenaline I don't think you'd be thinking clearly or doing the math on how many would survive in different scenarios, and the fact that most of these people would have never experienced anything like this before, and that gunfire is something to legitimately be afraid of… I don’t think it says anything less about people not immediately giving their lives by charging a gunman. And it seems like its alot easier to say I'm brave enough to give my life in that situation when you aren't in that situation."

Undoubtedly. But people will default to what they are taught, and as a society, we are taught from day one to not fight back. People who defend themselves are punished as harshely or sometimes worse than the attackers and the talking heads from police chiefs to politicians tell everyone that just going along with him is the best thing. And yet, every time one of these tradgedies occur, small stories come out of the few individuals that do fight back, and their resistance, however simple, saves lives.

We as a society should teach and encourage our children to defend themselves, and teach them reasonable response and defense.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 8:43 AM. Reason : dfa]

4/19/2007 8:38:04 AM

4/19/2007 9:11:54 AM

To illustrate my point on resistance. Virginia, 4 years ago:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=95001749

Quote :

"Students ended the rampage by confronting and then tackling the gunman, officials said."

4/19/2007 9:31:46 AM

Quote :

"a violent ultra-masculine guns blazing revenge is a way to re-establish their man hood and also gain power over people and a system they often felt no power in. there is also a grandiose vision in their minds of going out in a blaze of glory and being remembered as a somebody when they often felt like a nobody."

yep. sounds about right.

shit, it would've been so much easier to just rent a billboard...put up that picture of himself with the words "I HAVE NO FRIENDS AND HAVE NEVER ONCE SEEN A VAGINA."

4/19/2007 10:01:24 AM

^
They should put that on the rat's tombstone.

4/19/2007 10:19:42 AM

So I take it this guy isn't a terrorist like the UNC SUV guy?

4/19/2007 10:47:19 AM

If by "terrorist" you mean "Muslim", then no, he isn't.

4/19/2007 10:55:26 AM

For the record, I don't blame the victims of the VT massacre for their own murder. I salute the individual acts of heroisms that occurred, that made the tragedy less tragic than it could have been. However I lament their infrequency and the government, media and society which guaranteed that infrequency by 1)failing to prepare people for the possibility of confronting violence, 2)encouraging submission or cowardice in the face of violent assault rather than immediate, overwhelming counter-attack.

From Jeff Cooper

Quote :

"But many men who are not cowards are simply unprepared for the fact of human savagery. They have not thought about it (incredible as this may appear to anyone who reads the paper or listens to the news) and they just don't know what to do. When they look right into the face of depravity or violence, they are astonished or confounded. This can be corrected."

Let's take Coop's advice and correct this, rather than exacerbating it by letting the "experts" continue to advocate cowardice.

Quote :

"I worry about the world in which people are expect to react with a hive mentality and hurl themselves at gunmen for the greater good."

No hive mentality needed, the facts of each individual case may vary, but history is replete with examples of individuals who resisted ruthless, criminal predators and survived as a result where they almost certainly would have died by submitting or attempting to flee.

Still I would argue that every man has a responsibility to protect the women around him, even to the point of willingly sacrificing his life. If most men would rather live than die trying to stop a psycho from continuing to butcher random women, then our society has failed in one of it primary purposes.


[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 12:24 PM. Reason : ']

4/19/2007 12:08:42 PM

i blame capitalism.

4/19/2007 12:16:39 PM

Quote :

"2)encouraging submission or cowardice in the face of violent assault rather than immediate, overwhelming counter-attack."

yep. that's something that really bothers me, and it's ingrained in our society from the time we're small kids. Get caught fighting at school, for example, and you get suspended, even if it was totally the other guy's fault. We;re taught to back down, or to run, or do whatever, but that above all, violence is unacceptable. Sometimes not responding with violence is enabling to the person provoking bad situations, and sometimes it's simply impractical or even dangerous.

There are certainly times to hold 'em, fold 'em, walk away, and to run, but there are just as certainly times when violence is the best answer.

I've been in a number of altercations. One was in retaliation for a class-clown who slapped me in the face just to get the attention getting a rise out of me would ensure...one was in defense against a buddy who got drunk, said he wanted to fight, and tried to grab me by the throat...but the rest (6 that I can think of offhand) were to protect other people. Violence is a really bad idea a lot of times, but sometimes it's absolutely the best medicine that you can deliver, and we shouldn't scorn it's proper usage.

4/19/2007 12:28:05 PM

they often feel ...emasculated
these killers often feel ...often times sexually inadequate
ultra-masculine guns
re-establish their man hood
hyper masculine
ultra masculine
young man who may feel alienated especially from … females
take back his manliness

“not of men”
”if more than a tiny fraction of men out there would rather live”
”random women”

Just keeping a track of how much repub & mega blame this on gender/sex issues.

It just strikes me as a lot easier to claim to be a bigger, better, and braver man than the students who ran from gunfire when you aren’t put in that situation by surprise. But maybe one day enough people with penises will die for people with vaginas that it’ll be an okay society.

The professor died protecting students, not protecting women, I don't think we need to explain this away into something freudian. I think we can discuss levels of violence and bravery in a society without making it male vs female.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 12:30 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2007 12:28:53 PM

what does the professor have to do with this fuckhead kid with something to prove?

4/19/2007 12:31:29 PM

Obviously, this pyscho wasn't targeting women per se.

However, in a mixed group, it is the women who the men are obligated to protect, not the other men. If a man is willing to die in defense of another, great, but that is his choice. If a man in unwilling to die in defense of a woman then he is in dereliction of duty.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 12:54 PM. Reason : then than]

4/19/2007 12:53:09 PM

Fuck that, if it came down to protecting my father, brother, or son, or some random woman,

sorry chica, your on your own.

4/19/2007 1:00:22 PM

Quote :

"Just keeping a track of how much repub & mega blame this on gender/sex issues. "

ok i mentioned the sexual inadequacy as a valid contributing factor, not as something to blame. if you actually did some research you would find out that i am right on this one. there is a definite correlation between many school shooters and feelings of marginalization socially and sexually. they often feel unliked by their peers and especially girls and may often feel weak compared to other men. this is a true correlation and not just blame. and sex is a HUGE issue when like the overwhelming majority of these types of killers are male. as i said before, these feelings of marginalization may be real or PERCEIVED. Mitchell Johnson of the jonesboro attack was actually a popular kid and liked by girls, but in his own mind he wasnt.

as for citing my work, i never read the secret service study but it does in fact confirm what i said about profiling. all the other books i have read on this i could cite but i didnt because this is a fucking WW thread and not a paper for my PhD. hell i will cite a good book on school shootings. read the book Rampage.

4/19/2007 1:02:22 PM

You know what the problem is?

YOU.

message_topic.aspx?topic=308472

You think people don't hear what you say about them?

Keep pushing kids to the brink and making their lives more miserable then they already are.

And then one day they'll see no other alternative except to come and kill you.

4/19/2007 2:01:03 PM

yeah, i am the problem real mature response. i never teased, bullied or made fun of anyone in high school or college.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 2:24 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2007 2:23:02 PM